The importance of good relations in thwarting hegemonists (A 1.02 praise thread)

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valisk

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Just been playing around with GB in the GC scenario.

In previous games I spent a lot of time maintaining a policy of spledid isolation which allowed powerful enemies to build up and make significant gains in Europe.

During the 1850s the Russians as usual began a program of sustained expansion versus the Ottoman empire, playing as historically as possible, I chose to thwart this.
When the Ottomans begged me to join their allliance I did so.
Within 6 months I had also brought the USA, Germany (the lesser Germany) Austria, France and Spain into the alliance.
Russia's expansion was then rolled back somewhat by all these collected powers, during a series of wars which have restored the Ottomans lost lands and earned Austria a couple of extra provinces and seen a free Crimea born during just over a decade of on/off wars without crushing Russia or anyone else.
The UK has excellent relations with all the great Powers, and now, just as historically it did, the UK holds the balance of power.
If any other European or non European nation tries to break this balance I feel very confident of being able to put together an alliance capable of breaking the hegemonist in a very short space of time.

Unlike in 1.01 where this type of diplomacy wasn't really possible due to the huge armies that would gather in Europe and stamp out various nations preventing them from ever being a threat again and the giveaway AI offering anything in order to get peace, in 1.02 this works very well with a nice historic feel to it.

I am becoming increasingly impressed with whats possible in 1.02
 

Memnon

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valisk said:
The UK has excellent relations with all the great Powers, and now, just as historically it did, the UK holds the balance of power.

What remains to be seen is if you have a little Bismarck in you and can pull off the same thing with Prussia! :)
 

valisk

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I'll be giving that a try in the next couple of days ;)
 

Mazza

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I too am quite impressed about warfare in 1.02 (although I'm not too fussed on free regular divisions by way of partisans). Not so fussed on how the world market is so utterly barren, but the warfare is great, and so is the diplomacy. The alliance system works great.
 

unmerged(14180)

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I agree about warfare and alliances, they generally work fine.

I won't bring up my other grievances or try to make points about other unrelated areas of the game in this thread as others are trying to do.

I hope they can join me in this effort to stop every thread becoming a fanboi/whinger Great war.
 

Dinsdale

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I agree, the alliance system is one of the best parts of the game. I've had wars with nations who were my closest friends, and fought together with hated enemies; all in the name of "Balance of Power"

It's a major improvement on the EU system and one of the most interesting aspects of the game.
 

valisk

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Dinsdale said:
I agree, the alliance system is one of the best parts of the game. I've had wars with nations who were my closest friends, and fought together with hated enemies; all in the name of "Balance of Power"

It's a major improvement on the EU system and one of the most interesting aspects of the game.

Absolutely, at first I was a little frustrated by the short duration of alliances, but now I enjoy knowing that the alliance will lapse and allow me to switch sides if needed when the next bout comes around.
 

Spruce

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yes, diplomacy and warfare are one of the points where Victoria is near perfection.

I played a game as Austria and I'm in trouble with ALL my neigbours. They are DOW'ng me and only a few miracles have kept me alive,

a tip for Austria, make a superarmy and march for the enemy capital to take that country out of the Alliance! Then concentrate on the next target,

does anyone understand the new BB system? What BB points do you get and for what? The EU2 BB system was pretty clear for us,
 

unmerged(14180)

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with the Austrian Population at 29 million(which i have) the days of Austrias super army are gone.

Instead, build up relations with your neighbours, and remember, just before you DOW on Denmark, make sure they don't have an alliance with Russia, this has foiled me many times.
 

Spruce

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hm, I'm a heavy gambler and I make myself a huge army of 200.000 men and a few "instigator armies" that take back provinces and also harass the enemy to stall their advance,

I succeeded to have a white peace when I was at war with the Swiss-Italy alliance, the Ottomans, the Russians-Romanian alliance!

First I took out the Swiss capital, giving me a white peace on that alliance, then I harassed the Ottomans until they were tired of the war - also white peace and then I took out Romania and converted them to my satellite,

again, diplomatic warfare is the way to go in Victoria, but my luck will run out sometime,
 

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well i will not accept the alliance\diplomacy system in Victoria as being even decent until they fix the problem with where a country that is not allied to you but has guarenteed your independence can enter your war and then sign a peace with the leader of the opposing forces ending the war you were in for example the civil war for the US.
 

unmerged(23618)

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i agree that the alliance and war systems contribute a lot to the fun of the game, and i love how it handles annexations of uncivilized (possibly small civilized countries too, haven't noticed) when multiple countries are involved. playing as France and the event to punish burma comes up so i go invade after getting a small army together and i take most of the country with the UK taking two provinces. so i go to make peace thinking i'm gonna get screwed ... and it lets me annex the country giving the two provinces britain controled to them. i love it:D
 

unmerged(15204)

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I love 1.02, but I still have a complaint about Alliances. I'm playing the GC scenario using Austria. I had defensive alliances with all the German states as well as good relations.

Then came the Sonderbund Rebellion, followed quickly by Austria has gone to war over Slesvig. I resolved the war with Denmark peacefully, but Switzerland proceeded to rape me with the help of Britain. None of my allies came to my rescue, and as I found out, none of them dishonored the alliance either. They simply ignored me. I had no way of demanding that they honor the alliance since the diplomacy screen doesn't give such an option. It did show that I was currently allied. Then came Committee for Polish Independence and Natshertanye, which led to unmanageable rebellions that forced me to vassalize Bohemia, Hungary, Croatia, and Poland. By the time all was done, my entire nation had been conquered by the Swiss, and I couldn't get the Germans involved because technically they were already allied, though not at war!!

On another note, despite the bear market, I like the economics in 1.02. Playing Hesse-Darmstadt, I've grown the country into a strong economic player by focusing on building right factories in the right order and by selecting the right research.
 

unmerged(11874)

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Memnoch: i love how it handles annexations of uncivilized (possibly small civilized countries too, haven't noticed) when multiple countries are involved. playing as France and the event to punish burma comes up so i go invade after getting a small army together and i take most of the country with the UK taking two provinces. so i go to make peace thinking i'm gonna get screwed ... and it lets me annex the country giving the two provinces britain controled to them.

Crap. I knew this was how it worked in HoI, but I figured they'd gone back to the EU2 system (thank God they didn't, inasmuch as that led to the "Six Hundred Year War" when a weak country was involved in more than one distinct war).

But... this means if I'd just pushed a little harder Russia, the U.K., and Japan could've annexed China during the Boxer Rebellion...

Though maybe that would've been a bad move; speaking of the balance of power, the A.I. still balances it with a sledgehammer. A Russian annexation of Tibet, followed by a war with a jealous U.K. that had Russian columns moving through India, cost about a million Russian and eight hundred thousand British lives on the very periphery of the world and led to the generous cession of the untouched Russian Tibet to the damaged U.K., should be the end of it. Britain should not immediately break peace to declare war again, since their war aims were acheived (security of India plus land plus, of course, the fact of defeat of the other superpower). So I Neville-peace them a day later (it was 1913 or so, game was winding down, and I wanted to fight the other Great Powers in a magnificent European land slaughter, not Britain over the fate of the cows in Shangri-La). Then they declare war yet again the following week. I guess that's mindless BB for you, but strangely no other power wanted a piece, and Britain wanted a piece of no one else. This is the same Britain and arbiter of balance that stood by and watched the AI Netherlands eat Belgium, part of Germany, and *most of France.* I'm still not sure how that even *happened.*

Also, to Antascha: the Sonderbund Rebellion event has you (Austria) declare the war against Switzerland, meaning that your German friends in a defensive alliance with you will not help you. The only one that's worthwile anyway is Bavaria, so I usually dissolve that alliance and reset it as a full one. The others are useful only as a swarm.
 
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General Guisan

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Antascha said:
I love 1.02, but I still have a complaint about Alliances. I'm playing the GC scenario using Austria. I had defensive alliances with all the German states as well as good relations.

Then came the Sonderbund Rebellion, followed quickly by Austria has gone to war over Slesvig. I resolved the war with Denmark peacefully, but Switzerland proceeded to rape me with the help of Britain. None of my allies came to my rescue, and as I found out, none of them dishonored the alliance either. They simply ignored me. I had no way of demanding that they honor the alliance since the diplomacy screen doesn't give such an option. It did show that I was currently allied. Then came Committee for Polish Independence and Natshertanye, which led to unmanageable rebellions that forced me to vassalize Bohemia, Hungary, Croatia, and Poland. By the time all was done, my entire nation had been conquered by the Swiss, and I couldn't get the Germans involved because technically they were already allied, though not at war!!

That sounds really nice...whole Austria conquered by small Switzerland...three Hurrays for Paradox for this....

how were they able to do this? Haven't you had an army at all? :D

And in fact I'ver never seen the Sonderbund war, everytime Austria immediately made peace when UK decided to come to help Switzerland.

But sounds real good...
 

unmerged(15204)

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Yep, I knew Sonderbund Rebellion, and thanks for reminding me, Ideologue. I think my alliances were just defensive, which would explain the snub. Of course, I had the option to ignore the event, and Sonderbund fires another event where Britain threatens me with war if I don't back down, but I couldn't deal with the prestige loss, and I thought: "what the hell, it's Switzerland. I have a bigger army." What got me was just how fast the Swiss were able to mobilize and raise a horde of angry watchmakers to overpower me. And interestingly enough, Switzerland rejected every attempt at peace I made. I thought I would be annexed!

I had fun with it though. Part of the fun of Vicky and EU is the story-telling element. After the war, the Austrian people become disgusted with their German cousins, and choose to embrace their slavonic heritage. Austria becomes isolationist socialist early on, but pioneers many cultural advances. :)
 

hildoceras

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in a war, I think that the leader of the alliance should be the country who have been first implied in the war declaration. it would solve some problems of countries implied in two different wars at the same time and the peace resolutions of these wars.
 

valisk

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Prussian micro AAR

Just a little update on this, Memnon asked if I could pull off the same with Prussia.
Well...
I did get started with Prussia and have played through to 1919.

Prussia is a fine example of how brilliantly challenging 1.02 actually is. Playing on Hard/Furious.
I spent a little time, before getting cracking, examining my needs and potential future needs, and discovered that Prussia was dangerously short on sulphur, I had to sell techs to other nations in order to afford an initial burst of colonialism focusing on Borneo, as well as Djibouti, Namibia and Cameroon, giving me a chance later on to buy or conquer the extra provinces from other expansionists.
Then I set about adjusting the Prussian budget to something which generated a small (£50) surplus.
One of the important things here is to build a paper mill and if possible a fabric factory, I chose to build initialy only in Berlin, this took advantage of the fact that unemployed workers elsewhere would migrate to the centre and when pops split they would find instant work in the new factories.
By the 1840s I was producing clothes and furniture in Berlin, Machine parts had been availble on the market for some time. (I assume the British or Belgians had sold them). War with Denmark saw Holstien annexed and Denmark itself largely absorbed into Prussia, with the Danish remnants a Prussian sattelite.
Colonial purchases had given me the provinces needed to claim Borneo and begin Sulphur production.
Diplomatically France, Britain, Austria, the USA and Russia were all friendly, me having spent a huge amoung of diplomatic capital to keep them that way.
The 1850s were a time of continued colonial expansion, Namibia and Cameroon become Prussian colonies. Djibouti became a state when a large pop of Clerks decided to make it home.
The 1860s saw the first glimmers of Prussian expansion to come, still needing sulphur, I looked around the world to find such a highly needed resource unguarded, and finaly found it in Peru, and expeditionary force of 15 Prussian Divisions under Crown Prince Frederick and von Moltke took two sulphur producing provinces and held off the reasonably large Peruvian army, which had inflicted defeats on all it's neighbors, after knocking the battered remnants around for a while we settled on me keeping my initial conquests, which were then fortified. 8 Divisions remained behind to supervise this.
Throughout this period I remained great friends with the Great Powers, even joining with Britain and France to check Russian expansionism in the Balkans.
It wouldnt last.
Disputes with Austria led to war, a long and bloody war which did near fatal damage to Prussia in terms of manpower and when that war was won and the North German states which wanted to had unified into a block France declared war over our plans to put a Prussian noble on the Spanish throne. It took the very last of Prussian blood and effort to take Paris before the large French armies could return from their war with Spain. The French capitulated and Germany was born. I immediately set about repairing relations with Austria and France.
I did have one major problem, my manpower was into large negative numbers most of my armies were weak, it was a problem that would take over a decade to solve. (Quite how this occured I'm not sure, perhaps the pops fled or died when the Austrians occupied large parts of Eastern and Southern Prussia?) It seemed realistic though, you can't expect to fight such a huge and costly war without suffering greatly for it. Given these problem an Alliance with Britan seemed the obvious solution, and indeed it wasn't until the Boer War that German troops took to the field again, and then to support our British allies, for which we took a small strip of the Transvaal in thanks.
By 1903 I had put together Joseph Chamberlain's dream alliance, the UK, Germany and the USA. relations with France and Austria were good, relations with Russia not quite so good. They declared war, and invaded East Prussia, which I had partially fortified, one battle saw 30 Russian and 14 German Divisions annihilated, a white peace was signed shortly therafter. Between then and 1914 the German military became the worlds strongest, it fought a small limited war with the Ottomans in Central Africa, and won huge new territories in a peace deal.
Our chain of fortifications, both in Alsace Lorriane and East Prussia assisted in preventing war. The the British Empire declared war on Russia which had been busily expanding into China and recently Austria. The Russian troops refused to assault the double line of trenches I had prepared. An Anglo-German invasion of the St. Petersburg area supported by German and British Battleships and some 50 Divisions were more than the Russians could cope with and by 1917 the war was won, huge tracts of land expanded East Prussia into historic Poland and Lithuania, with a few bits of Austo-Hungary thrown in (which I gave back to Austria). Germany was ranked 3rd as a great power, behind China 1st and the UK 2nd. The USA was 4th.
China interestingly enough has a staggering industrial capacity, but a weak military and not particularly huge exports, it seems that the majority of her production is absorbed by her huge population.

I'd have to say that this game challenged me much more than my British game , diplomacy was once again the key to gaining enough time to grow and then important in building an alliance able to maintain my place in the world.
Joe Chamberlain believed that an alliance of the British Empire, Germany and the USA would be the arbiter of international power and guarantor of world peace, it seems like he was right, no other nation or collection of nations is capable of challanging this alliance successfully. One thing I think this diplomacy model is lacking is an option to threaten war to countries mobilising for war, this was a feature of C19th Diplomacy and is featured in a few events, it should be added as a new diplomatic option, this would allow powerful alliances to prevent as well as instigate war.
The budget is also important, as Prussia I had to do what historically all nations did, maintain a lowish military budget in peace so I could educate the population, and ramp up spending in war time, whilst cutting back on education spending. Nicely realistic.

Next up I think will be Sardina-Piedmont, as I havent seen Italy unify even once so far.
 

Memnon

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wow

Well, valisk, let me be the first to congratulate you on such an excellent game. Alas, you are far beyond my skill level at the moment. I was getting really really good at 1.01, and then this 1.02 patch came out and I found myself having to start pretty much at square one again, so much so that I actually began considering swithcing back to 1.01, but I have hence changed my mind. 1.02 is certainly challenging I no longer have any doubt that it was definitely an improvement on the game, and I am happy for it.

By God I'll figure it out yet!
 

valisk

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Memnon said:
Well, valisk, let me be the first to congratulate you on such an excellent game. Alas, you are far beyond my skill level at the moment.

Why thank you sir :)

Memnon said:
I was getting really really good at 1.01, and then this 1.02 patch came out and I found myself having to start pretty much at square one again, so much so that I actually began considering swithcing back to 1.01, but I have hence changed my mind. 1.02 is certainly challenging I no longer have any doubt that it was definitely an improvement on the game, and I am happy for it.

By God I'll figure it out yet!

When I first loaded up 1.02, like you, I found that everything I thought I knew was wrong.
I felt as helpless as many others did, but now, like you, I am absolutley convinced that it is a great step forwards, I've stopped playing my other games altogether now, and spend several hours a day on Victoria, and working out strategies for victory and expansion, [GIGANTIC PLAUDITS TO JOHAN PATRIC ET AL] and every day I'm more amazed by how good it really is. [/GIGANTIC PLAUDITS TO JOHAN PATRIC ET AL]