The III Reich in World War III

[GeneralHannibal]

I would imagine that the whole "progressive" wing of anything suffered a comeback, and that will hit Dewey hard as he was a "progressive" republican IIRC. Hmm.....

Could easily seeing a more conservitive candidate winning the primaries...

 

[Faeelin]

Why not? America dealt with Franco, Salazar, Mao, Pinochet, Saddam Hussein... why not Himmler if geopolitics demanded it? In the context of having lost a shooting war against the USSR I don't see it as too unlikely.

The US also lost a war with Himmler. And unlike Manchuria, it is still occupying the great nations of Western Europe. This includes nations that are American allies and have American citizens who support them, such as Poland given <mumble mumble mumble>.

A European Union won't fool anyone.

 

[The Yogi]

The US also lost a war with Himmler. And unlike Manchuria, it is still occupying the great nations of Western Europe. This includes nations that are American allies and have American citizens who support them, such as Poland given <mumble mumble mumble>.

A European Union won't fool anyone.

Well, it was more a question of not winning than loosing against the Nazis. After all, they freed most of Italy and Greece. There are no nations under the Nazi jackboot that were not already there at the time of American entry into WW2. The USA had already shown that it would not go to war to defend their independence as such.

But what it really boils down to is, I belive, that the United States has already decided to finish fighting the Reich. Having done that, there seems to be little point in ignoring geopolitic needs. I'm sure they're still planning to overthrow the Nazis eventually, but that never stood in the way good business.

(Basically, what this passage rationalises is that the USA AI is making trade deals with Germany, selling oil and rubber mostly, and that and some diplomacy has somewhat improved relations from a deep frozen -200 to a frosty -160 or so.)

 

[SirCliveWolfe]

Congratulation Yogi, another sterling effort in your start here!

I have just a few Anglo-centric (as always) questions, they may not be of great importance to your AAR but it would be nice to see how the Empire's doing;

1. Is India independant now? Clem released them in 1947 IOTL but this may (or may not) have changed with the different result of the war.

2. Was Truman a barsteward again? Did he stop lend-lease payments agian and force Britain to take a loan (over £1bn IOTL)? (Which was only repaid last December IOTL) Or is he funding the re-building/re-arming of the Empire?

3. How has Britain rebuilt so far? Has Clem started the major reforms (NHS etc...) yet or is he concentrating on economic recovery?

4. What is the mood of the Empire/Commonwealth.... afterall it is one thing to sacrifice your empire and people on the altar of "Freedom and Democracy" but then not to win that war...

Thank you sir, most entertaining again.

SirC

 

[Pirate Z]

Yogi, with the failure on the Western front and the victory in the Pacific, would you agree that it's more likely for the U.S. to concentrate on its Pacific engagements in the coming time?

 

[unmerged(63886)]

The eagle and the lion. Very good aswell.

 

[oddman]

<generic sounds of assent so the thread will be marked next time I look for AARs>

 

[The Yogi]

Congratulation Yogi, another sterling effort in your start here!

I have just a few Anglo-centric (as always) questions, they may not be of great importance to your AAR but it would be nice to see how the Empire's doing;

1. Is India independant now? Clem released them in 1947 IOTL but this may (or may not) have changed with the different result of the war.

2. Was Truman a barsteward again? Did he stop lend-lease payments agian and force Britain to take a loan (over £1bn IOTL)? (Which was only repaid last December IOTL) Or is he funding the re-building/re-arming of the Empire?

3. How has Britain rebuilt so far? Has Clem started the major reforms (NHS etc...) yet or is he concentrating on economic recovery?

4. What is the mood of the Empire/Commonwealth.... afterall it is one thing to sacrifice your empire and people on the altar of "Freedom and Democracy" but then not to win that war...

Thank you sir, most entertaining again.

SirC

1. No, I wouldn't pass over such a momentous event as the independence of India without mention. Britain is in a bit of a fix over India, because they were promised independence "after the war", at which time the security issues of the motherland were assumed to have been resolved. The problem here is that they weren't; The III Reich is still sitting across the channels with a multi-million man army, something in the order of 15.000 panzers, the most advanced air force in the world... and A-bombs! England really, really feels the need for the Army of India to fight WWIII, which it feels can not be far off in the future. But the Indian national movement will have none of it, they were promised independence and they want it now! Expect this to appear prominently in future updates...

2. Hmmm... since there is no mechanic in HOI2 for repayments, indemnities etc I guess he decided to let Britain off the hook. On the other hand, there's no Marshall plan planned here, except perhaps for Italy and Greece. America is giving lots of military and Economic aid to the French Republic of Algeria, trying to make it a viable state. Problem is that a few million pieds-noirs is no substitute for the whole population of Metropolitan France... if this continues, the new France will start to resemble ancient Sparta, every Frenchman a soldier busy keeping the native helots in line.

3. About as in OTL.

4. The mood is glum. There is no real desire to give up the Empire, although the government belives it's not compatible with the modern world (after all, what can the UK say about Germany occupying France as long as they themself occupy India? It's not the same, they're just darkies?)

You're welcome!

Yogi, with the failure on the Western front and the victory in the Pacific, would you agree that it's more likely for the U.S. to concentrate on its Pacific engagements in the coming time?

Short answer - left to their own devices, yes. That's were they see the USSR advancing and were they belive they must stop her. But once/if China falls and that leads to a shift of the Soviet focus towards Germany, then that could change quickly. America could make ready to move in and secure western Europe if the Reich looks set to collapse under the Soviet onslaught.

 

[unmerged(70464)]

Excellent update. I dont suppose Chandra Bose has survived this time, has he?

 

[Rekjavik]

I simply have to ask what nations Germany will look for as potential allies.

The Americans have the British, Free French, Canada, Australia and a huge list of others.

The Soviets will have most likely have China (or West China if the Nationalists do well enough), Mongolia and maybe some former colonies that break away.

I would think the obvious choices are Nationalist Spain, Portugal and Argentina, maybe in the longer term Syria and Egypt are possibilities. I can even imagine the Germans supporting some form of Indian uprising in the near future.

In the next update could you include a section on German foreign policy, to give us a better picture of the opposing sides in the coming war?

 

[GeneralHannibal]

Just curious, but what is happening in Middle Eastern countries like Egypt and Palestine. Also, if the Brits are smart, they'll give India independence soon, as otherwise they'll probably have a revolt on their hands...

As for Free France, most of the West African colonies were pretty loyal, and if they became citizens...

Also, if native Algerians, Moroccans and Tunisians were given citizenship, things might be a bit better...

Of course then it wouldn't really be "Free France" would it...

 

[EmprorCoopinius]

Good update, curious to see how the elctions will shake out as well as further German recoveries. Manpower is I'm assuming not an issue by this point?

 

[Fgorginator]

Just found this wonderful AAR

 

[Commander-DK]

I don't recall hearing how South America fared in 1939-1946? Can we also get an update on their political relations etc., please?

Looking forward to more updates!

Jesper

 

[SirCliveWolfe]

1. No, I wouldn't pass over such a momentous event as the independence of India without mention. Britain is in a bit of a fix over India, because they were promised independence "after the war", at which time the security issues of the motherland were assumed to have been resolved. The problem here is that they weren't; The III Reich is still sitting across the channels with a multi-million man army, something in the order of 15.000 panzers, the most advanced air force in the world... and A-bombs! England really, really feels the need for the Army of India to fight WWIII, which it feels can not be far off in the future. But the Indian national movement will have none of it, they were promised independence and they want it now! Expect this to appear prominently in future updates...

Good good.... didn't think that you would leave it out...

How about a democratic Dominion like Australia and equal footing with the 'white' colonies? I think that this, if actually possible, would be the way forward for the Empire and India. Maybe looking to for a common defense policy in the Empire instead of the UK just leading and other follow... I think that it may be the way forward.

Of course Ghandi kind of like the Nazi's... maybe an independant India may drift towards Germany?

Without Indian manpower, the UK still has a lot of IC capability, maybe they will leave 'the allies' and move toward a raproachment with Germany?

2. Hmmm... since there is no mechanic in HOI2 for repayments, indemnities etc I guess he decided to let Britain off the hook. On the other hand, there's no Marshall plan planned here, except perhaps for Italy and Greece.

Well I guess that the UK would still be bankrupt... I know that the game does not moddel this, but in 'story' terms will lend-lease will continue? Or maybe you could sontinue with scripted events like Vanila HOI2?

America is giving lots of military and Economic aid to the French Republic of Algeria, trying to make it a viable state. Problem is that a few million pieds-noirs is no substitute for the whole population of Metropolitan France... if this continues, the new France will start to resemble ancient Sparta, every Frenchman a soldier busy keeping the native helots in line.

'Free France' looks to be a unreliable ally... Depending upon the UK I would think that WWIII would look very much more like being a Pacific/Asia orientated war with the USSR & China fighting the Americans in China/Siberia and them fighting the Germans in a re-run of the Great Patriotic War? Maybe Europe will be saved more bloodshed and destruction?

3. About as in OTL.

Humm.... I suppose that this would suggest that if you are not 'storywise' loaning the UK money then lend-lease is being used to rebuild the country... I wonder if the 'socialist' policies of the new goverment is being done (nationlised health etc...) if so I wonder how Congress feels about this?

4. The mood is glum. There is no real desire to give up the Empire, although the government belives it's not compatible with the modern world (after all, what can the UK say about Germany occupying France as long as they themself occupy India? It's not the same, they're just darkies?)

I think that this may lead to a more federal Empire? I hope so, that may mean a longer time for all the countries of the Empire to grow together meaning that they will all prosper more

You're welcome!

I guess that you will be annexing the world.... so I'd like a Federal Empire to come to an arrangment like Sweeden in WWII.... or I'd really like to see Imperial troops allied to you pushing through Persia to open a third front with the Soviest?... but I know you don't do requests

 

[The Yogi]

I like the idea of an "Imperial" federation, or a Commonwealth that is also a military alliance. It would seem like the obvious way to settle the difference between America (which is anti-colonialist) and Britain (which America wants to keep as an ally). From Washington's perspective, there must be a real worry that Britain will "Finlandise" to Germany, since Germany has no problem with the British Empire remaining in place. Ever since the first Führer, Germany has sought for a modus vivendi with Britain based on German domination of the continent in exchange for security for the British homelands. All Britain has to do to be safe again is to say "OK, Jerry, lets have things as they are". The only thing that will cost them is any US backing - so America better make sure to make that backing worthwile.

 

[unmerged(1020)]

Yep, and the question here is... will Dewey still win the primaries and will Truman still defeat him given the changes to history as known to us which have taken place in this AAR? Stay tuned to find out!

This is still back in the day when Conventions mattered more than primaries (indeed, many successful candidates ignored them altogether). It wasn't until the 70s that they became the deciding factor.

I'm looking forward to hearing about India. The Congress Party's historic preference for neutrality might be thrown into flux by events in China. Particularly in light of the large Communist movement in India...

 

[unmerged(75409)]

India staying with the Commonwealth? Not a chance in hell. Historically, they were determined to break away from Britain as soon as possible. They had very, very little love for Britain, and were determined to make it on their own. Britain could be incinerated by Nazi A-bombs for all they care.

They might try to create a military from scratch, faster than in reality, if the Soviets act stupid and try to put military pressure on India... but then, even so there is no common border between India and the USSR so I guess the Soviets would not even show up on India's strategic defence radar. On the contrary, they might actually be more welcome than in OTL as helpers in India's modernization, if Britain and the west try to cajole them into staying with the hated British crown.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Oh and as for the British "Empire"... methinks it will go down the drain faster than in OTL. What is there that Britain can give to its former imperial cubs? Britain needs the dominions far more than the dominions need Britain. They need Australian grain, ores and uranium, they need Canadian grain and industrial produce. Canada on the other hand is rapidly growing its own industry, and its link with the USA will only become stronger.

Worse even, now that the war is over, Britain will have to pull even more of its troops and personnell out of the dominions to protect itself from the German threat.

South Africa is going to leave the Commonwealth very soon. (They did so in 1951 historically, with Germany ready and willing to take over as their partner, full of understanding for its policies towards the colored Untermenschen, it can happen even sooner.) India is set to leave the Commonwealth... Malaysia, Burma and Singapore are ready to do so as well, as soon that happens, inspired not just by India but also by the example of Vietnam. The question is, are the US interested in speeding up that process, or will they stop their liberation rhethoric?

I can't see Britain playing anywhere near the same role in this world as in real history. If Germany lets it be, then it might continue on a roughly historical trajectory (cautiously letting its Asian colonies go, trying to stop Arab nationalism and failing in the 1950's) . A difference might happen in the 1960's, when the African question becomes prominent. Historically, decolonialization in Africa was just as much caused by the unwillingness of the Euro nations to help their African subjects into the 20th century, as it was caused by the African will to become independent itself.

In a world where "bringing the Africans into the 20th century" is not seen as something that needs doing, and where Soviet support for African nationalists is a lot smaller that in history, then I don't see why Britain and France can't just keep holding on to their neglected colonies full of impoverished, illiterate, hunger-ridden Africans. World opinion might be a lot more tolerant... hell, barring a nuclear Armageddon, maybe even scummy little Portugal can keep working their salt mines and jungle farms with forced African labor well into the 21st century. Who cares.

 

[briant82]

Hey Yogi, love the alternate AAR. I am a bit of a lurker as my posts show.
I could see Germany secretly plotting with pro-Monarchy forces to bring the UK back into a traditional imperial nation. Many of the monarchy were closet Nazis and I wonder if this would play into their plans to block recovery plans in parliament. I am just thinking out loud. Maybe the British Nazis could create chaos in Britain to foster their own rise to power and create a Nazi Britain with the select help of "inviting German" troops to help with "law and order". Maybe show the SS troops marching by Big Ben with British tommies following them.
I thought the Germans viewed the Anglos as their kin. Maybe they shoud try to form a Anglo-Saxon alliance built on race. I talk too much so there you go.