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nobodyinparticular

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Feb 14, 2021
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Excuse the provocative title, but I'd like to discuss Hungary and how it could be tweaked.

Much has been said already about the Ottomans being OP as always and snowballing too much, and about Poland-Lithuania getting juiced too much from Lions of the North, and thus Muscovy often fails to achieve its potential... at the heart of this central-eastern European balance of power lies Hungary, somewhat neglected and struggling to hold its own in the hands of the AI. It fell outside the scope of Lions of the North and Domination, which is fine, I don't think Hungary needs a bloated mission tree and powercreeped set of modifiers. But it would do well with a "drive-by" adjustment in the next update.

If I had to identify Hungary's weaknesses, in particular in the hands of the AI, I would name the following:
  • Weak economy due to poor trade situation and high fort maintenance
  • Subpar military capacity due to the aforementioned weak economy, lower force limit than neighbouring powers
  • Mana problems due to starting regency + slow spread of institutions (development is very spread out)
Usually the best fate AI Hungary can suffer is falling under Austrian PU. In almost every other situation it falls to its neighbours sooner or later. They make a decent player ally but you will notice that even if they stay stable and consolidate the Balkans a little they're either limiting their army size or going into debt. If you abandon them they simply cannot stand on their own unless the big threats (Ottomans, Poland, Austria, even Venice) have been neutered.

I think Hungary could do with a starting fort maintenance discount modifier, either put in their traditions (replacing recover army morale speed) or in a T1 "Hungarian Kingdom" government form. And another small bonus, maybe -10% Idea Cost added to first idea "A Renaissance Prince". The starting regency could be 2/2/2 (like Bohemia). And finally, maybe distribute a bit more manpower development (~10 dev) through their provinces.
 
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I think it really boils down to this:

1) Do they ally Austria? If no (it sometimes happens), dead.
2) Do they ally Epirus? If yes, dead.
3) Does Austria abandon the alliance should Hungary decide to stay independent? If yes, dead.

They can very easily be attacked by the Ottomans, Bohemia, Poland and Venice all at once. No tweaking of game mechanics will change the fact they are outnumbered in army size.

The only thing that could really save Hungary is if there was a nudge in the direction of them allying someone good (other than the ever shaky Austrian alliance) early on.
 
It would also help them to either ally or attack the Balkan states regularly. Getting part of Bosnia and Serbia directly or indirectly is a big boost and usually allows them to survive much longer (and sometimes even thrive),
 
It would also help them to either ally or attack the Balkan states regularly. Getting part of Bosnia and Serbia directly or indirectly is a big boost and usually allows them to survive much longer (and sometimes even thrive),
Personally, I see that one happen every other game.
 
The only problem I see with buffing Hungary for the AI is that in player hands Hungary is already a really strong country.

and about Poland-Lithuania getting juiced too much from Lions of the North, and thus Muscovy often fails to achieve its potential

I don't own LotN in Muscovy still gets their face kicked in almost every single game. Basically it goes:

Does Poland get the PU? Russia dies.
Do the Ottomans get Crimea as a tributary? Russia dies.
Do the Ottomans expand into the Caucasus or Pontic Steppe? Russia dies.
Does the HRE fail to consolidate? Russia dies.
Does China re-consolidate? Russia dies.

Add to that a mostly underwhelming idea set and the inability for the AI to abuse mission rewards and you end up with the absolute failure that is AI Russia. But even for a human player, I see little reason to play Russia other than for achivements.
 
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Austria is also weak. The easiest to boost an AI is use Quantity as first idea, and Religious Culture previliege, that one give +10% tax, 10% prod incom, +10% manpower for state religion. Also turn some Hungary provinces into vassals. The numerous vassals is the secret of Muskovy power.

And why AI don't develop gold? A country with a goldmine should not be poor.
 
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They are strong, but they're considerably weaker than Poland and Bohemia. Bohemia are low key one of the strongest tags for the player in the game.
They are still surrounded by Austria, Bohemia, Poland, Ottomans, and I guess Venice. A small buff would surely not be the worst, especially if it would only target early game.
 
They are still surrounded by Austria, Bohemia, Poland, Ottomans, and I guess Venice. A small buff would surely not be the worst, especially if it would only target early game.
Oh I agree with you.

My point is that whilst player Hungary is strong, relative to their neighbours, Hungary is much weaker in basically every regard.

I don't think trade will be reworked at this point, so their economic situation will remain bad, but they could do with some buffs for sure imo.
 
Oh I agree with you.

My point is that whilst player Hungary is strong, relative to their neighbours, Hungary is much weaker in basically every regard.

I don't think trade will be reworked at this point, so their economic situation will remain bad, but they could do with some buffs for sure imo.

Maybe some better resources like they did for Iberia?
 
Maybe some better resources like they did for Iberia?
Think that maybe the idea suggested before of improving the regency mana could help.

I mean John Hunyadi took over in February 1445 so they could maybe hardcore or drastically reduce the MTTH on the event.

They could also maybe give them a better "tradition" to start with. Hungary can't afford much Cav so not sure the Cav combat ability is the best at helping them survive. Maybe they can start with the 5% Discipline instead.

It's just I ultimately think their issue is them lacking sheer quantity of numbers compared to Poland/Ottomans/Venice and even Bohemia
 
Considering that Hungary was very much on a losing streak between 1490 and 1683, their being gobbled up by nearby powers isn't that big of a problem. I know, I know, falling from grace in 1450 is very differnt from doing so in 1526, but the problem is that Austria just straight up wants to eat them, while Bohemia and Poland actively eye the provinces with the greatest potential, therefore, they can't get a strong ally nearby, meaning it's open season between those three and the Ottomans. I also find it rather odd that Hungary and Poland are rivals 90% of the time at the game's start when it's exactly this period of history when the Polish-Hungarian friendship started forming.
 
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Considering that Hungary was very much on a losing streak between 1490 and 1683, their being gobbled up by nearby powers isn't that big of a problem. I know, I know, falling from grace in 1450 is very differnt from doing so in 1526, but the problem is that Austria just straight up wants to eat them, while Bohemia and Poland actively eye the provinces with the greatest potential, therefore, they can't get a strong ally nearby, meaning it's open season between those three and the Ottomans. I also find it rather odd that Hungary and Poland are rivals 90% of the time at the game's start when it's exactly this period of history when the Polish-Hungarian friendship started forming.
I was also thinking the major help to them would be if they had a relations modifier with Poland.

Maybe if they stay independent they get to add Poland as a historical friend? I think that would solve the problem.
 
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I see many good ideas in this thread (like reduced fort maint. in tradition instead of morale recovery or higher starting polish trust/relations). Some of it I have suggested before (see my signature), so I am glad others feel like there is an issue that should be improved.

Another angle not really explored here I think is that PDX has designated "winner" tags for AI vs AI, as they want the Ottomans and Austria to succeed by design (Poland probably qualifies as well, Bohemia probably not). What this means that they will punch above their weight than they did historically, and poor Hungary finds itself in the frontlines withouth much help - e.g. Austria starts unified instead of being 3 tags, and everyone knows the infamous starting Ottoman pips. I think a Korea-like approach for solid defense should be considered, if they want to survive or thrive (hell, Mathias Hunyadi even occupied Vienna and conquered parts of Bohemia). Royal Hungary and Transylvania were also important factors in the following centuries for managing turkish expansion or influencing e.g. the PLC, as a Báthory can famously attest. I brought this up to illustrate that "but Hungary was destroyed/subjugated, so they shouldnt be too strong" is not a particularly good approach.
 
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Rather than buffing Hungary I think Poland/Commonwealth need a nerf. Russia is such a pushover for them. I only ever see them fail (outside of player intervention) if they get dogpiled with wars or refuse the PU. The difficulties with the Sejm etc. don't really seem to have much of an impact on the Commonwealth.
 
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