the huge historical mistake in Crusader kings 3

the huge historical mistake in Crusader kings 3

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zz77

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One is Russian, the other is Ukrainian.
None of these words - "Kiev" and "Kyiv" - are neither Russian or Ukrainian. Both words are English. The first is historical form, the second is modern. And btw the historical name Kiev is not related to Russia or Muscovy. It came to English from Polish language at the time when Russia/Muscovy did not have any control over the city. Russian roots of "Kiev" is just a myth created by Ukrainian nationalism. On the other hand, "Kyiv" came from Ukrainian language, and because of nationalism too.
 
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Fulgrim

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The 'Rus capital is in the "borderlands"?

It's funny, but yes - even in the X century Kiev was on the border of Rus. As a result, it often was attacked by nomads.
After the political center of Rus was moved to Vladimir, Kiev became a borderland in 100%.

P.S. It is Russian tradition - founding capitals on the borders (look at St. Petersburg).
 
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Fulgrim

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Guys, the OP is just a random nobody for this game\community who simply registered here for the sake of starting another RU/UA holywar.

And as far as historical documents show Kievan Rus actually became Kievan after Rurikids (from as far as Novgorod - center of "Gardariki" \ "Helmgatr") conquered it and integrated into their dynastical petty kingdom, later moving the aforementioned PK's "capital" to a warmer place which was Kiev. Thus the current CoA of Ukraine is the dynastical CoA of Rurikinds = Novgorod rulers. If you need an actual CoA of Kiev, then you should probably look for Askold\Dier's heraldry (good luck with that). End of story, cheer all.

P.S. I get it that historical revisionism is all the rage now, but why bring it here? You can always post something of that rubbish on some website disscusing thread you consider "unfirendly" to your cause and all that.

"Kievan Rus" is just historical term - it was never been "Kievan" in real live.

Current CoA of Ukraine is one of Vladimir the Great's symbols. And it was never been symbol of rurikids or Rus(sia).

The dispute is about the fact that someone does not like the current CoA of Kiev and Rus. As for me, he is normal and no one can offer anything better. Including symbols of Rurikids (which are already in the game as the emblem of the Rurikids).
 
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Good one guys. Propaganda is working ( I'm writing about fulgrim and draky from moscovian federation ). :mad:

Original name of capital of Rus' was - Кыѥвъ. And you should read it in English as - Kyjev ( Old Russian language ( do not confuse with Church Slavonic ) ). Language is changing by time and because " je " is sounds similar to " ji ", IN 12 CENTURY it changed to " Kyjiv " ( Киѣвъ ) or modern name - Kyiv. I don't know what problem with it if you write it in a right way. As it sounds today. As it sounded 800 years ago. By the way " kiev " it's just moscovian's empire way to write name of our city. I remind you that moscovia conquest Rus' in begging of 18 century. But name " Kyiv " was from 12 century!

Only Ukrainians know how to pronouce name of Rus-Ukraine capital, but moscovians definitely don't know how to do it because they are from another country and still using propaganda as " arguments ".
 
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Good one guys. Propaganda is working ( I'm writing about fulgrim and draky from moscovian federation ). :mad:

Original name of capital of Rus' was - Кыѥвъ. And you should read it in English as - Kyjev ( Old Russian language ( do not confuse with Church Slavonic ) ). Language is changing by time and because " je " is sounds similar to " ji ", IN 12 CENTURY it changed to " Kyjiv " ( Киѣвъ ) or modern name - Kyiv. I don't know what problem with it if you write it in a right way. As it sounds today. As it sounded 800 years ago. By the way " kiev " it's just moscovian's empire way to write name of our city. I remind you that moscovia conquest Rus' in begging of 18 century. But name " Kyiv " was from 12 century!

Only Ukrainians know how to pronouce name of Rus-Ukraine capital, but moscovians definitely don't know how to do it because they are from another country and still using propaganda as " arguments ".
ѣ was pronounced as [ɛ], [ie] or [æ] until 18th century in russian and developed into e in russian and i in ukranian. Киѣвъ is Kijěv because of this and because y was written as ы in those times in all dialects. Also this is written with church slavonic shift uvular+y -> uvular+i, this makes this spelling nearer to russian spelling.

https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol/oruol/10 english
http://www.litopys.org.ua/shevelov/shev.htm ukranian
http://ruslang.ru/doc/savinov/Savinov-2015-juzhnorus_vocal.pdf russian
 
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ѣ was pronounced as [ɛ], [ie] or [æ] until 18th century in russian and developed into e in russian and i in ukranian. Киѣвъ is Kijěv because of this and because y was written as ы in those times in all dialects. Also this is written with church slavonic shift uvular+y -> uvular+i, this makes this spelling nearer to russian spelling.

https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol/oruol/10 english
http://www.litopys.org.ua/shevelov/shev.htm ukranian
http://ruslang.ru/doc/savinov/Savinov-2015-juzhnorus_vocal.pdf russian

Well... It's even interesting. :)

Russian - it's Ukrainian language, and Church-slavonic - it's moscovian language. So you shouldn't compare Church-slavonic to Russian because it have different rules of pronouncing of some letters and different evolution of languages at all.
" Киѣвъ " sounds in English like " Kyjev ", "Kyyev ", " Kyjiv ", " Kyyiv " or " Kyiv ". Because sounding " и " is hard ( Kyi ), not soft ( Kei ). As I wrote, in 12 century name changed to " Киѣвъ " ( or " Кыѣвъ ", " Кіѣвъ " ). At this time all three letters " и, ы, і " merged and had one sound - ɨ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_central_unrounded_vowel ( press " play clip " to listen to it ). So if you want to write it in English use only this symbol - y.
And if you remember before 12 century name of Kyiv was - Кыѥвъ. Where ы had this sound - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_central_unrounded_vowel . And ѥ had - " je " or " ye " sound https://translate.google.com.ua/?hl=uk&tab=TT&authuser=0#view=home&op=translate&sl=uk&tl=en&text=є ( modern ukrainian letter - є ).
Letter ѣ from 12 century has a lot of pronouncing ( " ɛ ", " ie ", " æ ", " e ", " i " ) but you can see logic here: if 100 years ago Kyiv has " ye " or " je " sounds - Kyjev/Kyyev ( original: Кыѥвъ - Києв ), it should have soft sound in 12 st. too - " ji " or " yi " - Kyjiv/Kyyiv ( original: Киѣвъ - Київ ) .
And right now it's Kyiv. And I think name of this city didn't change a lot from that time ( from 12 to 16 century ).


That's why correct versions of historical name of Kyiv is - Kyjev, Kyyev, Kyjiv, Kyyiv or Kyiv but not - " kiev ".
 
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viola

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Is this another thread where Ukrainians and Russians get pissed at each others over names and other silly stuff?
 
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Earl_Cadogan

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Imagine having a fit about how the name of your city should be written in English. I wonder why I don't see butthurt Chezhs here, claiming that "Prague" should be written as "Praha", because that's how they pronounce it. Or the Italians, with "Rome" and "Roma" respectively. I guess they have something better to do than argue about a pointless subject on forums.
Speaking about pointless subjects, all de-jure empire titles are made up, except HRE and ERE. The double-headed eagle is ahistorical because the title is ahistorical. If the Empire of Rus' had existed, they would have taken its Coat of Arms. But it didn't. So they took the CoA of the next similar thing - Tsardom of Russia. It's a game. If you can restore the Roman Empire, you can create the Russian tsardom a few centuries earlier. And If you don't like the CoA, you can create your own custom empire title.
 
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This is THE huge historical mistake in CK 3? :confused:
 
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Checco

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Literally unplayable
 
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Except not, because Iran is a thing.
Yeah, but of course you can't be an Empire unless you're Rome!

Never mind Persia/Iran; never mind the Caliphates that were large enough they can only be considered Empires; never mind the situations in India.

Never mind that some of the Empires on map are logical geographic "big kingdoms" (Scandinavia), or represent political bodies that were formed as "big kingdoms" historically (Hispaniana, representing Spain+Portugal, Britannia - representing the UK, Francia - representing later France).
 
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Fulgrim

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Well... It's even interesting. :)

Russian - it's Ukrainian language, and Church-slavonic - it's moscovian language. So you shouldn't compare Church-slavonic to Russian because it have different rules of pronouncing of some letters and different evolution of languages at all.
" Киѣвъ " sounds in English like " Kyjev ", "Kyyev ", " Kyjiv ", " Kyyiv " or " Kyiv ". Because sounding " и " is hard ( Kyi ), not soft ( Kei ). As I wrote, in 12 century name changed to " Киѣвъ " ( or " Кыѣвъ ", " Кіѣвъ " ). At this time all three letters " и, ы, і " merged and had one sound - ɨ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_central_unrounded_vowel ( press " play clip " to listen to it ). So if you want to write it in English use only this symbol - y.
And if you remember before 12 century name of Kyiv was - Кыѥвъ. Where ы had this sound - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_central_unrounded_vowel . And ѥ had - " je " or " ye " sound https://translate.google.com.ua/?hl=uk&tab=TT&authuser=0#view=home&op=translate&sl=uk&tl=en&text=є ( modern ukrainian letter - є ).
Letter ѣ from 12 century has a lot of pronouncing ( " ɛ ", " ie ", " æ ", " e ", " i " ) but you can see logic here: if 100 years ago Kyiv has " ye " or " je " sounds - Kyjev/Kyyev ( original: Кыѥвъ - Києв ), it should have soft sound in 12 st. too - " ji " or " yi " - Kyjiv/Kyyiv ( original: Киѣвъ - Київ ) .
And right now it's Kyiv. And I think name of this city didn't change a lot from that time ( from 12 to 16 century ).


That's why correct versions of historical name of Kyiv is - Kyjev, Kyyev, Kyjiv, Kyyiv or Kyiv but not - " kiev ".

Please stop - it is obviosly that the Ukraine as an "ancient" state and Ukranian language as "Russian" language both are products of USSR propaganda in XX century and Austria-Hungury propaganda in XIX.

Russian is a direct descendent of North-western (Novgorod) and North-eastern (Vladimir-Suzdal) dialects of old Russian. Ukranian - result of polonisation of Southern dialicts of old Russian.

The only correct option in English in medieval contex - Kiev. But feel free to use any option for modern city - even "Ckeyiouvw" if you want.
 
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Let me settle this: use Hungarian translation for East Slavic county names. It's neither accurate nor appropriate, but at least you don't have to argue if Kijev is Kiev or Kyiv.
Kijev, Polock, Moszkva, aww yeah
In my game I played as a Polish tribe and invaded Russia. Now the counties have Polish names like Kijow and there's no issue about which name should be used :D (although counties further North don't have Polish versions of their names)
 
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Fulgrim

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In my game I played as a Polish tribe and invaded Russia. Now the counties have Polish names like Kijow and there's no issue about which name should be used :D (although counties further North don't have Polish versions of their names)

I tried to do something close in ck2 - became vassal of Poland as west-russian prince and tried to save orthodox as primary religion in my counties.
Failed...
 

Mr. Capiatlist

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Locked per the warning left in the other thread.
 
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