the huge historical mistake in Crusader kings 3

the huge historical mistake in Crusader kings 3

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grommile

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good luck renaming Paris to Pari, Beijing to Pei-Tzing and the Hague to s‑Gravenhag
French still spells Paris with an 's', even though it's hundreds of years since French people pronounced it with an 's'.

Which romanization scheme are you using for Mandarin there? The current official standard is Hanyu Pinyin, under which Beijing is the correct spelling for the city Westerners traditionally spelled "Peking".

I have no problem with Hague province being labelled "den Haag" or "'s-Gravenhage".
 
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Leyrann

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the Hague to s‑Gravenhage.
I would like to point out that 's Gravenhage has fallen out of use quite a while ago already. While Dutch people will know what city you're talking about, we always call it Den Haag nowadays.

's Hertogenbosch versus Den Bosch is more ambivalent.
 
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Except for it's not. If I recall correctly Kiev in Russian will be Kiyev.
So your whole argument is meaningless, unless you think that all English names of all cities should be direct translations from the languages that happen to dominate in those cities in the early 2020-s (which, in this case would be Kiyev since Russian is still the majority language in that city, at least from my experience 2 years ago), then good luck renaming Paris to Pari, Beijing to Pei-Tzing and the Hague to s‑Gravenhage.
As name of modern city - yes. But for ancient city the only appreciate option is "Kiev".
Use "Kyiv" for medieval city is the same as say that prince Oleg of Rus sieged Istanbul.
If I was pushing for this to the extremist extent you think I am, I would be asking for things like Kyjevŭ, yes, but I'm not. I'm just saying that the matter of the name Kyiv is actually a big deal. I know firsthand that a lot of Ukrainians detest the name because it's what the Soviets used.

So for the whole "English names of all cities should be direct translations" Yes/No, I'm just arguing this from the standpoint of where even the government is asking for officials and other governments to use Kyiv instead.

And in the end, Київ is Kyiv, so ?
 
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Fulgrim

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If I was pushing for this to the extremist extent you think I am, I would be asking for things like Kyjevŭ, yes, but I'm not. I'm just saying that the matter of the name Kyiv is actually a big deal. I know firsthand that a lot of Ukrainians detest the name because it's what the Soviets used.

So for the whole "English names of all cities should be direct translations" Yes/No, I'm just arguing this from the standpoint of where even the government is asking for officials and other governments to use Kyiv instead.

And in the end, Київ is Kyiv, so ?
It is the problem of ukranians. And actually name "Kiev" was used in Russian Empire too.

And we speak not about modern city with its modern inhabitants, but about medieval time. "Kyiv" is a modern name using by current government. But it is not their business to change common using name "Kiev" for medieval city.

Just as i said - turks can use name "Istanbul" for modern city, but noone will use it as a name of Estern Roman empire's capital instead of Constantinople. The same with Kiev - if you want you can use name "Kyiv" for modern city, but not for capital of Kievan Rus.
 
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Fulgrim

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One is Russian, the other is Ukrainian. Kyiv is in Ukraine, so it should be addressed as the Ukrainian name.
Of course no. It doesn't matter who lives in Kiev now. In historical context should be used correct historical name "Kiev".
 
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fr-rein

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So, do we have videos/gameplay from East Europe? I just wanna know if the point about CoA which you argue exists or not, I didn't see it myself.
 

mechl

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Personally I don't think one incorrect "flag" counts as a "big" mistake. Flags changed a lot during the time period the game takes place in, and it's impossible to keep every flag accurate without a dynamic flag system, which the game won't have as far as I know. And even if it did, they would need to take into account ahistorical player choice. It would be a lot of work for relatively little gain, since the average player won't be able to pick out inaccurate flags aside from the really well known ones. A lot of things in CK are an abstraction, and flags very much fall under that category.
Hell it's less 'flags changed all the time' and more 'there were almost no nation flags for the most part in this time period'. In the end you can base things on heraldry but no matter what is chosen someones not going to like it and want something else.
 
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Taylor138

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I agree that the double-eagle at the very least should stand for the empire title simply because most of the empire titles are out right fictional like " Scandinavia, Hispania, Britannia, Carpathia. So I don't believe using an actual Historically accurate COA (even if a bit early) is that much of a stretch compared to made up ones that have been in game from CK2. Really the double-eagle has by far more solid ground to stand on considering it started being used during Ivan III which was the middle to late 1400's which isn't that far from the CK2 end date of 1453.
 
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kurthakon

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Disagree. These symbols were never been symbols of Rus/Russia, but only for Rurikids (and of course not in blue-yellow colors of Galicia-Volyn).
If you don't like the eagle, then a rider with a spear is more suitable (the modern coat of arms of Moscow and the Kiev regions, also called "Russian chase"/"Pogonya Russkaya")
Well, I specifically said that the Rurikid symbols were just the personal seals of the dynasty, and that due to the lack of alternatives the Rurikid symbols could potentially be used for a Kievan Rus. Paradox have in the past used dynastic or personal seals as the coat of arms for titles when there have not been any historical alternatives.

Saint George and the Dragon is a Christian symbol, and would not be the best option unless Rus always converts to Christianity after the 867 start.
 
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ZlNT

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Most things related to Slavic culture reach West through the prism of Russian culture. There is no big surprize here, as Russian country, Russian language ans Russian culture are the most dominant among Slavic world. How much the world knows about Slovakia or Slovenia? Or do people know that modern Macedonia is actually Slavic? Meanwhile, everyone knows something about Russia, at least vodka/bears/suka memes. This is why Kiev is known in Western Europe as Kiev and not as Kyiv. Hey, even the word Slavic is clearly of Russian influence ("slavyane"). I think the rest of Slavs pronounce it as "slovyane" as it derives from word "slovo" which means "word" as opposite to "Nemtsy" which has meant "foreigners" ("nemoy" means "mute" = doesn't speak Slavic; now this word means "Germans" in Russia and Poland, lol). In Russian root "Slov" mutated into "Slav" at some point.

Overall, it's just stupid to enforce Ukrainian language in a videogame.
 
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ArVass

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Let me settle this: use Hungarian translation for East Slavic county names. It's neither accurate nor appropriate, but at least you don't have to argue if Kijev is Kiev or Kyiv.
Kijev, Polock, Moszkva, aww yeah
 
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SMiki Lorebringer

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Let me settle this: use Hungarian translation for East Slavic county names. It's neither accurate nor appropriate, but at least you don't have to argue if Kijev is Kiev or Kyiv.
Kijev, Polock, Moszkva, aww yeah
As a Pole I always forget you use S and SZ the opposite way we do xD
 
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Fulgrim

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Well, I specifically said that the Rurikid symbols were just the personal seals of the dynasty, and that due to the lack of alternatives the Rurikid symbols could potentially be used for a Kievan Rus. Paradox have in the past used dynastic or personal seals as the coat of arms for titles when there have not been any historical alternatives.

Saint George and the Dragon is a Christian symbol, and would not be the best option unless Rus always converts to Christianity after the 867 start.
Originally, Horseman does not been assocoated with st. George - it was a picture of prince (knyaz) with spear or sword. Only in Grand Duchy of Moskow timeframe it was assosiated with st. Geroge.
Thus, it is okey even for pre-christianity Rus.

The personal seals of the Rurikids were too different from one to the other, but in general I agree that a bident (not a trident) can be used to denote the genus as a whole, but not for Russia. (As it is already in the game. But it would be better to change colors to the traditional for Rus red and gold)
 
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Vityviktor

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Tbh most of the de jure empire COAs are bogus anyway
Yeah, most of them are basically alternate history. Some make sense (like CK2's Hispania, which actually contains the CoAs of the existing kingdoms of Castile, Portugal, Aragon, etc) and others feel weird no matter who formed it (like Carpathia or the Wendish one).
 
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starz

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Oct 16, 2014
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Guys, the OP is just a random nobody for this game\community who simply registered here for the sake of starting another RU/UA holywar.

And as far as historical documents show Kievan Rus actually became Kievan after Rurikids (from as far as Novgorod - center of "Gardariki" \ "Helmgatr") conquered it and integrated into their dynastical petty kingdom, later moving the aforementioned PK's "capital" to a warmer place which was Kiev. Thus the current CoA of Ukraine is the dynastical CoA of Rurikinds = Novgorod rulers. If you need an actual CoA of Kiev, then you should probably look for Askold\Dier's heraldry (good luck with that). End of story, cheer all.

P.S. I get it that historical revisionism is all the rage now, but why bring it here? You can always post something of that rubbish on some website disscusing thread you consider "unfirendly" to your cause and all that.
 
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