The HQ Bde-What is it exactly?

[aphrochine]

here is how I see it...


You have a division which is commanded by a General, and so you can form an Army HQ based on that unit+General.

Beneath this unit, you attach 3 more Divisions, each being commanded by a LtGen, and you form a Corps HQ on each. So the Army already has 4 Divisions in it.

Each Corps has 3 more division attached to it, commanded by MjGens. So you add a further 9 Divisions to the Army, for a total of 13, with 4 of these forming the command divisions. Given that we have customizable divisions, efficiency would encourage that you have 'HQ' divisions which would include HQ brigades.

I'll say it again, the HQ brigade will not be required to form a Corps. Requiring an HQ brigade will vastly limit a players choice and flexibility in their command structure. This goes against the general design goal of making the game more accessible. Anytime to implement a system that is more limiting than beneficial, it's a poor design choice.


Upon arriving in Africa:

Rommel wires Berlin..."WTF is my HQ Brigade, how can I form the AfricaKORPS, without a HQ Brigade."

Berlin wires back... "Seriously?? ...you cant pull a few officers together, hijack some radio equipment from a couple of tanks and get some command and control together?!?!"

Rommel wires...."hell to the no, I majored in Desert Foxy'ness at the academy, not communications...didn't you read my traits in the game file???"


I dont think an HQ brigade will be required to create an HQ for any level, but definately beneficial.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Hmm, why wouldn't you just create the Afrikakorps in Europe, and then send it over? That would solve your problem, I think.

 

[aphrochine]

I guess the point I was trying to make was more to 'in-field' flexibility. Why should you force a player to build a new HQ Brigaded division so you can form a new Corps on the eastern front. I'm not convinced that this would be what Pdox wants, that to force players to build specific brigades. We've all said it in other threads, that pdox is giving you alot of freedom, including the freedom to make poor decisions. Why would they be limiting in regards to HQ brigades??

 

[Alexander Seil]

It seems to me that the most reasonable way to interpret the newest diary is that every commander, at every level, has to be given something physical to command. I'm not sure if making HQs out of infantry brigades would be allowed, although it's not altogether unreasonable. It's just that I sense that if it's allowed, players will have Rommel actually drive a tank, with obvious consequences for game balance (unless these hybrid HQ units are given massive penalties, or their Corps/Army is).

 

[potski]

here is how I see it...


You have a division which is commanded by a General, and so you can form an Army HQ based on that unit+General.

Beneath this unit, you attach 3 more Divisions, each being commanded by a LtGen, and you form a Corps HQ on each. So the Army already has 4 Divisions in it.

Each Corps has 3 more division attached to it, commanded by MjGens. So you add a further 9 Divisions to the Army, for a total of 13, with 4 of these forming the command divisions. Given that we have customizable divisions, efficiency would encourage that you have 'HQ' divisions which would include HQ brigades.

I'll say it again, the HQ brigade will not be required to form a Corps. Requiring an HQ brigade will vastly limit a players choice and flexibility in their command structure. This goes against the general design goal of making the game more accessible. Anytime to implement a system that is more limiting than beneficial, it's a poor design choice.


Upon arriving in Africa:

Rommel wires Berlin..."WTF is my HQ Brigade, how can I form the AfricaKORPS, without a HQ Brigade."

Berlin wires back... "Seriously?? ...you cant pull a few officers together, hijack some radio equipment from a couple of tanks and get some command and control together?!?!"

Rommel wires...."hell to the no, I majored in Desert Foxy'ness at the academy, not communications...didn't you read my traits in the game file???"


I dont think an HQ brigade will be required to create an HQ for any level, but definately beneficial.

You could be right as to how it will work in HOI3, but then why bother with the fourth Div in the Corps? You may as well just create it from three frontline Divs and assign the Lt.Gen to command one of these.

I can't find the OOB's for the DAK when Col.Gen Rommel commanded, but when Gen. Thoma commanded just before the Battle of El Alamein there was:

2 Panzer Div
2 Mot. Div

1 Par. Bde
1 AA Bde

An HQ Battalion
1 Signals Battalion
1 Supply Battalion
1 Survey/Mapping Platoon
1 Artillery Observation Squad

Battalion=1000men, same strength as an HOI3 HQ "Brigade"


FM.Rommel commanded the German-Italian Panzer Army:

4 Corps (inc the DAK above)

1 Rear Security Div
Army Art. HQ (Div strength) commanding various Art units (2 Art Regiments, and some Rocket Art)
Army Sp.Art. HQ (Bde strength) commanding 3 Sp.Art Battalions
1 Glider Regiment
3 Sp.AA Battalions
1 Commandos Company
2 Engineer Companies

An HQ Battalion
1 Signals Regiment
1 Survey/Mapping Company
2 Construction Battalions
1 Railroad Engineer Company
3 MP Platoons
A number of Supply and Service units covering: Transportation, Field Hospitals, Rations Admin, Vehicle Repair, Supply, Water Supply, etc.

It's a complete myth that Rommel operated without any sort of HQ/staff/support organisation, either while he was a Division commander in France, or Corps/Army Commander in North Africa.

Requiring an HQ Brigade to form a Corps HQ, Army HQ etc. doesn't "vastly limit a players choice and flexibility in their command structure." What it does is say: here is the choice, you can have a Corps structure and get some significant benefits in the operation of your Divs, but it will cost you 1439 IC.Days (5.33 IC per day for 270 days), or you can choose to operate without a Corps structure.

I'm sure that you would find that every major army had a significant sized "HQ/Support" organisation at Corps level and above. The US Army had only 40% of it's personnel in the European Theatre of Operations in combat units, Divs or smaller independent combat units (Art. Bde's, Sp.Art Battalions etc.). The remaining 60% were in Corps level and above HQs, logistics/transportation, and other support functions.

The cost of the HOI3 HQ Bde's are relatively cheap (in terms of IC and MP) in comparison to the IRL cost of the "tail" of non-combat personnel.

Incidentally, we have yet to see Paradox's plans for the new logistics system. I'm betting that the HQ's have a role. And your "Corps" units without any HQ are going to be running on empty.

 

[Alexander Seil]

I don't really see a problem with respect to Afrikakorps. You could probably get away with having 3 HQs total (assuming multi-national armies are possible, and you have some control over the Italians) - one Italian Army HQ (sitting in Sicily, most likely), one Italian Corps HQ and Rommel's.

 

[krieger11b]

I guess they should represent how much manpower was used for REMFs and POGs instead of the actual troops that did the fighting.

 

[Alex_brunius]

I don't really see a problem with respect to Afrikakorps. You could probably get away with having 3 HQs total (assuming multi-national armies are possible, and you have some control over the Italians) - one Italian Army HQ (sitting in Sicily, most likely), one Italian Corps HQ and Rommel's.

Until they get pushed back to tunisia and need to spread out that army of theirs along a 10 provinces wide border with two fronts. Then they need one HQ in each division to even have a corps leader. And even later when they are evacuated into italy and we once again get more divisions per province they no longer need those HQs at all.

This is why HQ bde:s needed for each corps is a bad Idea, we are either robbed of a brigade spot (thats totally pointless because all divisions need to have a HQ). Or our flexibility is reduced greatly.

 

[potski]

I don't really see a problem with respect to Afrikakorps. You could probably get away with having 3 HQs total (assuming multi-national armies are possible, and you have some control over the Italians) - one Italian Army HQ (sitting in Sicily, most likely), one Italian Corps HQ and Rommel's.

Except there were four Corps (the DAK and three ITA), each with their own HQ Battalion and various supply/support services attached. And Rommel's Army HQ.

In Rommel's rear there was also:
Italian Armed Forces Supreme Command of Libya (Army Group level, commanded by FM Balbo)
Italian Armed Forces Logistics Command of Libya
Libyan Sahara Defense Command (Corps strength)

The Italians also had Libya Naval Command, with its HQ in Tripoli.

The Italians had an Air Command HQ in Sicily and the Germans an Air Command HQ in Rome (Luftflotte 2 under FM. Kesselring) with a Fliegerkorps HQ based in Sicily, all three HQ's at battalion strength.

Then there were:
Italian 1st Fleet, with it's HQ in Taranto
Italian Supreme Commando (Theatre Level) with its HQ in Rome, commanded by FM Graziani
German Mediterranean Command (Theatre Level) also in Rome, commanded by Kesselring

That's alot of HQ's in the chain of command of the two Axis countries involved in North Africa, and the war in the Mediterranean to try to maintain the supply lines to Rommel.

There's no reason why you shouldn't take MC in HOI3, and utilise all of those Italian HQ's. The AI should build the correct amount of HQ's now to go with its Div builds. But in any case, many of these Italian HQ's existed in 1936, so should already be included in the ITA OOB when the game starts.

 

[Jmland]

Quote….After all, I've never heard of an infantry brigade (or rather regiment) directly attached to an army.


It was indeed rare, but it did happen. Mostly in isolated/special situations. More common was (at least in the US Corps) was an Arm Cav Bde (called a regt) directly subordinate to the Corps or Army HQ, but most of the time attached to a division for a specific operation. The germans also had the independent Pzr Bdes (Nrs 100-117), a couple of which actually did pretty well on the eastern front. The Brits often had Arm Bde’s or individual divisions directly attached to an Army HQ, IIRC.


Quote….What I hope to see is every unit has something like an HQ attachment button and this opens up a screen where you can select ANY higher level HQ to assign it to. Or even detach it completely from any HQ, so that it then becomes a unit that has to be micro-managed by the human player. This nicely covers the situation that occurred in a few cases where a unit or small group of units was kept out of the normal military command structure, and controlled directly by the High Command.


I kind of like this idea….

Quote…It's a complete myth that Rommel operated without any sort of HQ/staff/support organisation, either while he was a Division commander in France, or Corps/Army Commander in North Africa.


Absolutely true. Germans invented the General Staff system. Rommel had the basic structure for a light corps (2 Lt Pzr Divs, 2 Lt Mtr Inf divs, a couple of independent Bdes). He also had something like 10 times the average logistical tail (trucks) that other german corps got, because of the special problems in that theater.


My thoughts (if anybody REALLY cares) are as follows

A Corps HQ IRL is approximately the size of a division. When I say Corps HQ, I'm including all the Corps assets, logistic, combat support, combat service support & attached corps combat assets. For those not familiar with US terminology.....
Logistics = transportation, food, fuel, ammo supply
Combat support = Engrs, MP's, medical,
Combat Service Spt = admin (staff), special troops (the REMF's)
attached combat assets = AA Bde, Arty Bde, Arm Cav Regt/Arm Bde

Most of the above were something like a Battalion in size, or sometimes smaller (not counting the combat assets).

While the logistics portion is, or has been in the past, represented notionally in the game, the most of the others are attachable bdes. As an example, the Engr bde, which in real life, should only be attached at a Corps or Army HQ, is available to be attached to line division in the game. One could argue that it's realistic, because they were sometimes attached to a division for a specific operation. But I would argue that they belong exclusively as part of a HQ unit (unit with a HQ bde), and nowhere else, where the command radius (or whatever it's being called) allows the Engr bde to contribute it's qualities to a specific unit (which maybe the whole corps, if the entire corps is doing a river crossing).
If I were the benevolent dictator of the universe, I would have the HQ's for use at corps and Army/AG level, with the commanding officer assigned determining the HQ effect. I would also limit the bdes that could be attachable to the HQ as follows.

HQ Bde (obviously)
Arty/SPArty
AT/TD
AA
Engr
MP

You can design and build a 1 bde divsion (and call it a BDE) that could be the Corps reserve.
Additionally, one could limit/control exactly which bde's can be attached to a HQ unit via Land Doctrine choices. Example, Blitzkrieg doctine allowing SParty/TD to be attached.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Except there were four Corps (the DAK and three ITA), each with their own HQ Battalion and various supply/support services attached. And Rommel's Army HQ.

In Rommel's rear there was also:
Italian Armed Forces Supreme Command of Libya (Army Group level, commanded by FM Balbo)
Italian Armed Forces Logistics Command of Libya
Libyan Sahara Defense Command (Corps strength)

The Italians also had Libya Naval Command, with its HQ in Tripoli.

The Italians had an Air Command HQ in Sicily and the Germans an Air Command HQ in Rome (Luftflotte 2 under FM. Kesselring) with a Fliegerkorps HQ based in Sicily, all three HQ's at battalion strength.

Then there were:
Italian 1st Fleet, with it's HQ in Taranto
Italian Supreme Commando (Theatre Level) with its HQ in Rome, commanded by FM Graziani
German Mediterranean Command (Theatre Level) also in Rome, commanded by Kesselring

That's alot of HQ's in the chain of command of the two Axis countries involved in North Africa, and the war in the Mediterranean to try to maintain the supply lines to Rommel.

There's no reason why you shouldn't take MC in HOI3, and utilise all of those Italian HQ's. The AI should build the correct amount of HQ's now to go with its Div builds. But in any case, many of these Italian HQ's existed in 1936, so should already be included in the ITA OOB when the game starts.

So, we have the following projected in-game OOB then -

Italian Armed Forces Libya
-----Rommel
--------4 Corps-level commands
-----Sahara Command

So, including the rear-end Italian garrison forces, you're up to 7 HQs in Africa, with the top level one being Army Group. Naturally, that would be under Kesselring's theater-level command back on the mainland, but I'm not counting that. Still, note that the actual "Rommel's Army" utilizes measly 5 HQs, which I don't see as a huge tragedy, especially as the Italian Corps HQs will be probably in the OOB at start.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Until they get pushed back to tunisia and need to spread out that army of theirs along a 10 provinces wide border with two fronts. Then they need one HQ in each division to even have a corps leader. And even later when they are evacuated into italy and we once again get more divisions per province they no longer need those HQs at all.

This is why HQ bde:s needed for each corps is a bad Idea, we are either robbed of a brigade spot (thats totally pointless because all divisions need to have a HQ). Or our flexibility is reduced greatly.

Why would they need a HQ for each division? I don't understand.

EDIT: Every division is by itself on the map. The Corps HQ exists as an independent unit in its own 1-unit "stack." Whether your divisions are spread out over Tunisia or all sitting in the same province, they need the exact same number of HQs. And I repeat for the hundredth time - there are NO stacks. At least, that seems to be the import of Johan's statement that "every division [plus HQs] are their own units on the map."

 

[Alex_brunius]

Why would they need a HQ for each division? I don't understand.

I know there are no stacks, but its still reasonable to assume the level above single division will be represented by all divisions in a single province (corps) right? So even if the "stack" don't exist we still are very likely to have the concept of it. And by requiering the HQ Bde so far down in CoC you effectivelly limit the divisions flexibility alot.

 

[Alexander Seil]

No, the level above a single division is a Corps. That Corps has a HQ unit. The HQ unit for DAK could be in Amsterdam and the DAK itself in South Africa. They're still just one Corps. Divisions in one province presumably need not belong to the same Corps, nor do the divisions belonging to the same Corps need to be in the same province.