The Hohenzollern Empire 5: Renewed Phoenix - A Roman Reich Megacampaign in New World Order

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zenphoenix

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A nice reflection to remember than even those who have been sainted, those who are viewed as righteous, were human and as such had flaws.
Even the righteous aren’t always right.
It's quite interesting to see the flaws in our saints like Saint Wilhelmina being such a zealot and ends justify the means until sometime later. It is a difference from the worship she has received and some miracles that also happened like somehow managing to look 20 when she was 80.
Nowadays I just chalk that up to game mechanics, but who knows?;)
I am near the 1900s in terms of the story and along with the History of China update that I am working on I also want to do some updates to what this world would be like in the Cyberpunk 2020/Red/2077 Timeline. However, to do that I was wondering where Night City would be? I ask this because in OTL according to Mike Pondsmith Night City is built on Morro Bay which is between Los Angeles and San Francisco and that I think you said in a previous update that in this TTL the stand-in for the West Coast of the United States is the Middle East. I was also wondering what Axis country has a similar Post-War history to Japan (in were it is an ancient land but after the war has become one of the most advanced nations on Earth and still douse a good job in maintaining its traditions) since for TTL India appears to be the stand-in for Germany and in a previous comment you said that the Two Japans were based off of OTL India and Pakistan. I was also wondering if there was a faction like the European Economic Community where they would be since the Reich dominates Europe in TTL.
You’re free to work on Cyberpunk updates. Night City might just be all of Israel at this point, or at least in the area between Damascus and Tel Aviv.

There isn’t a direct Japan analogue as I had China go the way of post-1949 Taiwan and the other countries went the way you said.

The closest thing to the EEC is Jorvik Thordarsson’s Eimerican Community project which we will see a lot of in the future. Back in Eurasia the old Central Powers will be reformed soon to focus more on economics and trade than military affairs, and it will be called Schengen. In universe this pivot happened in the 1990s, but I didn’t get around to using the name or talking about it until recently. The Tianxia alliance remains as it always has, only it has close economic ties with Schengen now.
 
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CaptainAlvious

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Love how you wrote Gunhilda and Wilhelmina in this update, it's great to see flaws in people that have been described as pretty much perfect before, helps flesh out this world and give new context to earlier parts of this AAR. I like to think of the second half of the 12th century after Gunhilda's death and Kirill's invasion as a sort of redemption arc for Wilhelmina, especially once she starts interacting with Kirill's ghost and bonding with him during all those wars and Kyrilos' theft of the Greek fire formula in her last years.

I think the last time the Pope was mentioned in the story was when the Angeloi occupied of Italy during WW2 and since then all mentions of the Pope have been dropped, so I wonder if the Papacy still exist or if there's any Catholic communities left? You did implied the French mostly remain Catholic in your Parks and Recreation summary, so I guess that would play into Saint Wilhelmina's deportation measures against them.

I just noticed how ironic it is for how the Reich suppressed all the cultures with a Latin derived Romance language like French, Romanian and Italian. I guess the local Lombard and Gallic dialects would have traces of the original languages in them while still being more Germanic so there's still an underlining there, but the idea of Romans suppressing languages connected to Latin is kind of funny to me.

Speaking of Italy, I wonder how the Italian Merchant Republics and city-states were integrated into the Reich, especially they conquered before Friedrich the Great was the HRE’s Kaiser by House Salian, the dynasty of Fredrich's friend Kaiser Henrich, who were given land in Venice and Bulgaria after Henrich’s death. I wonder if Henrich had a different approach to conquering and integrating Italy and North Africa than the Hohenzollerns with the other provinces, since he settled loads of Germans into North Africa and likely parts of Italy like how the two Fredrichs and Saint Wilhelmina resettled and shuffled lots of different groups of people around the Reich to decrease the chances of rebellion?
You’re free to work on Cyberpunk updates. Night City might just be all of Israel at this point, or at least in the area between Damascus and Tel Aviv.
On that note, what would be some Hohenzollernverse original influences on City 17 from Half Life since its aesthetics is rooted on a dystopian sci fi take on a post Soviet Eastern European city and would probably have some architectural and cultural influences from the Occupied Territories?
Also, you might want to check up on your Middle East region update. The image you had for Tel Aviv's cityscape is currently broken.
 
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TWR97

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Josh seems to forget that no Saint was ever without flows, especially in the case of say, like Saint Augustine, and Saint Willhelmina in TTL, Alex is right after all, the saints, while holy men and women were above all else, human in their lives. Am glad we got to see more lore expansion regarding Gunhilda and Willhelmina, especially that bit on Gunhilda protecting the French, Polish and Arab minorities. Not bad for a farm girl from Kujawy,
 

zenphoenix

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Love how you wrote Gunhilda and Wilhelmina in this update, it's great to see flaws in people that have been described as pretty much perfect before, helps flesh out this world and give new context to earlier parts of this AAR. I like to think of the second half of the 12th century after Gunhilda's death and Kirill's invasion as a sort of redemption arc for Wilhelmina, especially once she starts interacting with Kirill's ghost and bonding with him during all those wars and Kyrilos' theft of the Greek fire formula in her last years.
Kirill’s war and death probably marked a turning point for Wilhelmina, making her come to terms with what has happened to her family. After his death she looked inward and wondered if she was doing the same with her own family. It reminded her of how she treated Gunhilda, her own adopted mother. She spent the rest of her life trying to make up for her earlier actions, replacing war and suffering with an era of peace and .

Also, I’m not sure if I brought this up, but I like to consider the “Romanov” family as being the descendants of Kirill given noble titles in Russia.
I think the last time the Pope was mentioned in the story was when the Angeloi occupied of Italy during WW2 and since then all mentions of the Pope have been dropped, so I wonder if the Papacy still exist or if there's any Catholic communities left? You did implied the French mostly remain Catholic in your Parks and Recreation summary, so I guess that would play into Saint Wilhelmina's deportation measures against them.
The Pope is still around in the same situation, but I haven’t talked about him because he has always been irrelevant. There are still Catholic communities around, mostly in France and Poland these days, but they’re pretty small.
I just noticed how ironic it is for how the Reich suppressed all the cultures with a Latin derived Romance language like French, Romanian and Italian. I guess the local Lombard and Gallic dialects would have traces of the original languages in them while still being more Germanic so there's still an underlining there, but the idea of Romans suppressing languages connected to Latin is kind of funny to me.
This is more of a game mechanic kind of thing, as the idea of a French, Italian, and Spanish language is more of a modern one (most French didn’t speak modern French until well after the French Revolution, modern Italian is based on the Sardinian dialect, and modern Spanish is based on Castilian). So it’s more like Wilhelmina suppressed certain dialects of Italian and French (and probably Polish and Arabic as well) but was convinced to spare others like Breton, Occitan, and Lombard. In Hispania she suppressed Castilian but left Aragonese and others alone. Definitely ironic how all of the Romance languages were targeted by these programs.
Speaking of Italy, I wonder how the Italian Merchant Republics and city-states were integrated into the Reich, especially they conquered before Friedrich the Great was the HRE’s Kaiser by House Salian, the dynasty of Fredrich's friend Kaiser Henrich, who were given land in Venice and Bulgaria after Henrich’s death. I wonder if Henrich had a different approach to conquering and integrating Italy and North Africa than the Hohenzollerns with the other provinces, since he settled loads of Germans into North Africa and likely parts of Italy like how the two Fredrichs and Saint Wilhelmina resettled and shuffled lots of different groups of people around the Reich to decrease the chances of rebellion?
Heinrich probably pioneered the deportation policy Friedrich the Glorious and Wilhelmina refined and continued during his Italian and North African campaigns.

As for the Italian city-states and merchant republics, most were simply absorbed into the growing empire and left alone if they didn’t violently resist. While Venice returned to a monarchical system, Genoa remained a republic led by doges. I’ll be talking about one of these doges in the future. For those that resisted, like the city of Spoleto (which I found was ruled by a guy from Croatia after being conquered when I dug through the old save file), their leaders were deposed and loyal ones installed. I’ll also talk about this Croatian count in the future.
On that note, what would be some Hohenzollernverse original influences on City 17 from Half Life since its aesthetics is rooted on a dystopian sci fi take on a post Soviet Eastern European city and would probably have some architectural and cultural influences from the Occupied Territories?
Maybe some Slavic religious influences mixed with Orthodox imagery. I’m not so sure.
Also, you might want to check up on your Middle East region update. The image you had for Tel Aviv's cityscape is currently broken.
I’ll check it out.
Josh seems to forget that no Saint was ever without flows, especially in the case of say, like Saint Augustine, and Saint Willhelmina in TTL, Alex is right after all, the saints, while holy men and women were above all else, human in their lives. Am glad we got to see more lore expansion regarding Gunhilda and Willhelmina, especially that bit on Gunhilda protecting the French, Polish and Arab minorities. Not bad for a farm girl from Kujawy,
Josh seems to have a more “patriotic” outlook on Roman history. The nation’s heroes can’t do any wrong because they are heroes, and he wants to keep it that way. Everything else is just revisionism and slander against Roman exceptionalism. A shame for a boy who is smarter than he lets on.
 
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zenphoenix

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Also, you might want to check up on your Middle East region update. The image you had for Tel Aviv's cityscape is currently broken.
I’ve fixed it now.
 

zenphoenix

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A Knight’s Funeral

Mitte Imperial Cemetery, Constantinople - November 2, 2016

The honor guard fired off a twenty one gun salute. One member of the marching band played taps while Heinrich and three men who had served under Prince Horst lowered their late commander’s casket into the ground. A chaplain recited a prayer, not that Georg was listening. The memorial service went by in a flash for him.

Suddenly, it was time for the memorial lunch. His brother got up and left with Francesca. It was no secret Wilhelm Karl and Horst were not on good terms. Ever since childhood, they’d butted heads often. Horst always eagerly read up on tales of medieval Roman knights, especially the two Friedrichs and the two Saints. Georg remembered many happy summer afternoons from his childhood spent playing with Horst and Heinrich.

“Come on!” Horst would say. “The evil Hassan is about to summon the dragon of darkness! You must help me reclaim the legendary sword Enonon so I can stop him!”

“Yeah, yeah,” Georg would always reply.

“For justice!” Horst would say.

Those were fun afternoons, running though the woods of western Anatolia behind Horst’s family’s estate and whacking crudely drawn pictures of dragons pinned to trees with sticks alongside Heinrich. Georg smiled.

“And thus, the evil Hassan was slain when the dark magic protecting him was pierced by the light of Enonon’s blade, which would then go on to slay the dragon of the darkness and save the Reich from being dragged into the shadows,” Georg said, “The brave Horst reclaims his kingdom and marries his sweetheart.”

Speaking of sweethearts, Georg looked back at Horst’s widow. Funny enough, she had once been engaged to Wilhelm Karl, before she met Horst and changed her mind. That was probably why they had a falling out. Then again, there were other signs.

“You’re a fool, Horst,” Wilhelm Karl would say whenever they met, “Chivalry never existed.”

“What do you mean?” Horst would reply.

“It’s all a lie, made up by people from a later time who wanted a romanticized past to fondly look back on,” Wilhelm Karl would say, “All those ideals of justice mean nothing.”

“Then what’s your idea of justice?” Horst would say.

“We can only know justice from our own experiences,” Wilhelm Karl would say, “Through what we see and do, we can develop our own code of justice and work to make that a reality.”

“Nonsense,” Horst would say, “Justice is universal. It is a constant. It is the same no matter what your life is like! And I must work to uphold that!”

“You’re wasting your time,” Wilhelm Karl would say, “One man’s justice could very well be another’s injustice and vice versa. If you enforce your unreasonable ideas of justice onto all, there will be those who will see that as unjust.”

“If anything, you’re the one with the unreasonable ideas of justice!” Horst would inevitably say. “We must eliminate those who cling to unreasonable ideas of justice!”

“Are you listening to yourself?” Wilhelm Karl would counter. “You’re silencing me. Just like the left!”

It surprised him Wilhelm Karl even showed up for the service. Maybe it was Father who asked him to go, as Otto couldn’t make it. He had a medical checkup today. Georg came on his own, because unlike his cynical brother, he was more fond of his cousin. And Heinrich came because he was their friend.

Georg walked up to the casket as it lay in the grave. He knew it was empty. Horst’s body couldn’t be recovered from the crash, and even if it could, it would’ve been in pieces. Not everyone could be as fortunate as Anne Frank. The Church should declare that one of the miracles considered for canonization. Then again, she wasn’t even Christian or that religious.

“So, uh...” he began. “Looks like you beat me to the grave.”

He laughed. “You were always the kind of guy who’d end up like this. Rushing in guns blazing, playing the hero every chance you get. Sometimes, I envy you. You actually get to be the hero. Me? I...just do my work without much recognition. I hope you found what you were looking for all these years, Horst. That justice you wanted to bring to the world.”

Georg looked around at the men and women who still gathered in the cemetery. Horst’s widow and children quietly sat in the back, contemplating a future without him.

“These days, we need more men like you,” Georg said, “Always ready to step in and do the right thing even without personal gain. You rushed straight to Malaya as soon as you could after finishing the Yucatan talks, exchanging your life for one Malayan city. That’s dedication.”

He looked down. “Me? I’m not a fighter. I’m not a hero. I’m just trying to do my part.”

Georg thought about that. Was he really doing his part? MSC had interrupted the pacing of his work lately. He realized he had been spending more time in China, trying to secure aid, than actually providing the aid. He blamed it on MSC making it hard to deliver the aid. But Horst didn’t care about that. He jumped right into Kota Bahru without breaking a sweat. He didn’t worry about terrorists. Though it did cost him his life in the end.

“Yeah, Horst, I know,” Georg said, “I don’t really have the best track record lately, what with all of the chaos going around. I’ll try to do better. You wouldn’t slow down, would you?”

He laughed. “So I’ll make sure your death wasn’t in vain, Horst. Heinrich and I'll do our best. You have my word.”
 
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Golden Dragon

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Just reading still makes me wish that instead of Horst dying Wilhelm Karl just suddenly died to a car bomb from the RAF.
 
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CaptainAlvious

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And so we get our first proper look at who Wilhelm Karl is, outside of the gameplay chapters. He actually kind of reminds me of Josh in terms of his world view. Makes sense how he would clash with Horst’s chivalric beliefs, through it seems like he has tensions with the rest of his family. I wonder how he treats his niece and father?

Also dragon of darkness eh, that kind of works when describing the Worm. Guess the Reich do have their own way of remembering them, even if that childhood game is a little distorted from reality.
Also, I’m not sure if I brought this up, but I like to consider the “Romanov” family as being the descendants of Kirill given noble titles in Russia.
Well that's very interesting, not only because it technically makes them a cadet branch of both the Rurikids (which they already were in real life) and the Hohezollerns, but because it was a Romanov who joined the Soviet Airforce and became the Pilot who dropped the Konigsberg Nuke after the first bomb on Warsaw. I guess you could say that Kirill, in a cosmic sort of way, got his revenge on his Hohenzollerns. Might also overlap with the lore I wrote about Kirill being glorified by the Soviets despite Equalism's anti noble tenets (although to be fair, that was lore I created myself)
This is more of a game mechanic kind of thing, as the idea of a French, Italian, and Spanish language is more of a modern one (most French didn’t speak modern French until well after the French Revolution, modern Italian is based on the Sardinian dialect, and modern Spanish is based on Castilian). So it’s more like Wilhelmina suppressed certain dialects of Italian and French (and probably Polish and Arabic as well) but was convinced to spare others like Breton, Occitan, and Lombard. In Hispania she suppressed Castilian but left Aragonese and others alone. Definitely ironic how all of the Romance languages were targeted by these programs.
Indeed. Seems like the Romans held a little inferiority complex against Romance languages and their roots in Latin until quite recently, if the section on languages from the Reich country update in Vicky 2 about the Reich not accepting Romance language in academia and culture is anything to go by.:p

Although to be fair, the Greeks seemed to be pretty nationalistic themselves in that same section and the rest of that update by how their interactions with their western German peers and other neighboring groups until the Maxmist Wars were described, even after the Greek Dyatoi were represented when the Old Greek Senate was presumably absorbed into the Imperial Diet. Angelos was from Greek Dynatoi after all, so guess old habits really do die hard.
Heinrich probably pioneered the deportation policy Friedrich the Glorious and Wilhelmina refined and continued during his Italian and North African campaigns.
I wonder if that something to do with his own wife murdering him, knowing the rift that policy later caused between Wilhelmina and Gunhilda? My headcanon is that the Cult, through the Catholic Church, manipulated her and a bunch of other nobles into thinking that Henrich had lost his way and Fredrich was a threat, resulting in them in killing Henrich but failing to kill Fredrich in an attempted coup, which would result in Fredrich purging the nobles that took part in this plot after he became Kaiser due to grief and anger at the loss of his friend.

For that matter, I wonder if Gunhilda and Wilhelmina had other disagreements when it came to dealing with the Worm and its cult as well, since the deportations and purges were a symptom of the Hohezollerns' conflict with them and both of them would probably know about the Cult from Fredrich the Glorious and Gunhilda's own origins as an Angel. That said, she'd sympathy with the victims of the deporations for the reasons stated in the study session, but also because the pesuections of these minorites probably hit too close to home for Gunhilda since she's Nephilim, who were effectively wiped out themselves.
As for the Italian city-states and merchant republics, most were simply absorbed into the growing empire and left alone if they didn’t violently resist. While Venice returned to a monarchical system, Genoa remained a republic led by doges. I’ll be talking about one of these doges in the future. For those that resisted, like the city of Spoleto (which I found was ruled by a guy from Croatia after being conquered when I dug through the old save file), their leaders were deposed and loyal ones installed. I’ll also talk about this Croatian count in the future.
So basically Italy still be decentralized and would have a lot of different polities in the Medieval and Renaissance periods even under the Reich, with direct Schweinfurt administration probably being limited to the southern mainland and Sicily. I kind of like it, I might roll with that idea in my Kaiserreich-Tianxia lore once I get out of my college and writers block induced hiatus.

Also, how do Jews fare in the Reich outside of Jewish plurality regions like Eastern Hispania and the Middle East? I noticed there was an Italian Jewish community that developed in Rome and the city of Orvieto that probably developed after the mending of the schism, so I wonder how they got along with the Mostly Orthodox Italians and any left over Catholic minorities in the rest of Italy?

What are some Norse influences in Britannia? I think some of the Norse settlers that arrived there during the brief Scandaivaian occupation were deported or forcibly converted to Christianity by Fredrich the Glorious, but I imagine those anti Norse assimilation polices were ended by the time Hispania was integrated into the Reich, likely due to Saint Gunhilda's diplomacy.

It's worth noting that the Island of Socotra remained predominantly Arab and escaped Saint Wilhelmina's suppression of Arabs, especially since they would go on to form their own merchant republic in the style of the Italian and Hansetic maritime republics after the Ming made contact with the Reich, so I wonder what that community was like? I imagine Socotra did pretty well as a merchant republic since its in the middle of the Indian Ocean trade routes, although it did suffer stragtic bombing by the Loyalists and Axis occupation during WW2.

By the way, are Kyrilos' descendants still Counts of Naxos at this point? Saint Wilhelmina did let him keep that title after she pardoned and recruited him, so I wonder if his family held onto that county.
 
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zenphoenix

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Just reading still makes me wish that instead of Horst dying Wilhelm Karl just suddenly died to a car bomb from the RAF.
Here's how Prince Georg can still become Kaiser!
And so we get our first proper look at who Wilhelm Karl is, outside of the gameplay chapters. He actually kind of reminds me of Josh in terms of his world view. Makes sense how he would clash with Horst’s chivalric beliefs, through it seems like he has tensions with the rest of his family. I wonder how he treats his niece and father?
You're right, I did try to draw parallels between Josh and Wilhelm Karl, or at least I added more characterization to Josh to make him more like Wilhelm Karl since his mindset was already very similar. They both don't like idealists like Horst, whom they see as naive and ultimately causing their own downfall. Wilhelm Karl isn't on good terms with his father, especially after his mother died (the only person who could keep him in line together with Otto). He thinks of his niece as naive and irrelevant, and if she were heir to the throne she'd be a puppet of the nobility and corporate interests, who'd take over ruling while she plays video games.
Also dragon of darkness eh, that kind of works when describing the Worm. Guess the Reich do have their own way of remembering them, even if that childhood game is a little distorted from reality.
It was initially intended to be a Fire Emblem reference, but I scrubbed the outright plot details I snuck in when I decided to do the actual FE series. The Worm stuff I guess works too.
Well that's very interesting, not only because it technically makes them a cadet branch of both the Rurikids (which they already were in real life) and the Hohezollerns, but because it was a Romanov who joined the Soviet Airforce and became the Pilot who dropped the Konigsberg Nuke after the first bomb on Warsaw. I guess you could say that Kirill, in a cosmic sort of way, got his revenge on his Hohenzollerns. Might also overlap with the lore I wrote about Kirill being glorified by the Soviets despite Equalism's anti noble tenets (although to be fair, that was lore I created myself)
That is my idea, that they're also a Rurikid cadet branch and second only to the actual Rurikids in the noble hierarchy. I'm guessing the Romanov who nuked Konigsberg would be a huge propaganda opportunity for the Soviets as you point out. Could play into the Kirill propaganda movie you brought up.
Indeed. Seems like the Romans held a little inferiority complex against Romance languages and their roots in Latin until quite recently, if the section on languages from the Reich country update in Vicky 2 about the Reich not accepting Romance language in academia and culture is anything to go by.:p
And yet Latin itself retained its status...
Although to be fair, the Greeks seemed to be pretty nationalistic themselves in that same section and the rest of that update by how their interactions with their western German peers and other neighboring groups until the Maxmist Wars were described, even after the Greek Dyatoi were represented when the Old Greek Senate was presumably absorbed into the Imperial Diet. Angelos was from Greek Dynatoi after all, so guess old habits really do die hard.
The rift between the German and Greek dynatoi was steadily widening over the centuries as the Germans got rich off transatlantic trade while the Greeks were confined to the eastern Mediterranean and the declining Silk Road. It blew open with the Pragmatic Sanction and Maximist Wars. The Metternich system did close some of the gap to reconcile the two, but then Angelos happened. The whole thing was finally resolved when Otto broke all of the nobles' power, making them equally powerless and rendering their opposition to each other pointless.
I wonder if that something to do with his own wife murdering him, knowing the rift that policy later caused between Wilhelmina and Gunhilda? My headcanon is that the Cult, through the Catholic Church, manipulated her and a bunch of other nobles into thinking that Henrich had lost his way and Fredrich was a threat, resulting in them in killing Henrich but failing to kill Fredrich in an attempted coup, which would result in Fredrich purging the nobles that took part in this plot after he became Kaiser due to grief and anger at the loss of his friend.
That actually is what I plan on explaining that whole incident with, that the Cult manipulated his wife and spymaster into killing Heinrich. But my idea was they wanted to install their preferred candidate on the throne after Heinrich to sideline and later kill Friedrich. Friedrich caught on to the plot but was unable to save Heinrich in time. The Cult moved to kill Friedrich, but he rallied the electors and other nobles behind him to purge the plotters and their Cult backers, leading to them electing him Kaiser.
For that matter, I wonder if Gunhilda and Wilhelmina had other disagreements when it came to dealing with the Worm and its cult as well, since the deportations and purges were a symptom of the Hohezollerns' conflict with them and both of them would probably know about the Cult from Fredrich the Glorious and Gunhilda's own origins as an Angel. That said, she'd sympathy with the victims of the deporations for the reasons stated in the study session, but also because the pesuections of these minorites probably hit too close to home for Gunhilda since she's Nephilim, who were effectively wiped out themselves.
Gunhilda isn't exactly Nephilim, just an angel who incarnated into human form, but I agree she would see the deportations as going too far, making them just as bad as the Cult.
So basically Italy still be decentralized and would have a lot of different polities in the Medieval and Renaissance periods even under the Reich, with direct Schweinfurt administration probably being limited to the southern mainland and Sicily. I kind of like it, I might roll with that idea in my Kaiserreich-Tianxia lore once I get out of my college and writers block induced hiatus.
Yeah, the Schweinfurts mostly focused on the south and Sicily and left the north alone as long as they paid taxes and acknowledged their rule.
Also, how do Jews fare in the Reich outside of Jewish plurality regions like Eastern Hispania and the Middle East? I noticed there was an Italian Jewish community that developed in Rome and the city of Orvieto that probably developed after the mending of the schism, so I wonder how they got along with the Mostly Orthodox Italians and any left over Catholic minorities in the rest of Italy?
There would be tension between the different groups. Some Jews would want to reclaim any properties they lost in the move to Israel, while the Orthodox who moved in centuries ago see them as invaders, and the remaining Catholics get persecuted by both sides. Similar interactions happen elsewhere in Europe. Anti-Semitism doesn't go away that easily, but relations improve over the centuries. Then again, Muslims become the next persecuted group.
What are some Norse influences in Britannia? I think some of the Norse settlers that arrived there during the brief Scandaivaian occupation were deported or forcibly converted to Christianity by Fredrich the Glorious, but I imagine those anti Norse assimilation polices were ended by the time Hispania was integrated into the Reich, likely due to Saint Gunhilda's diplomacy.
Most of the Norse in Britannia were probably allowed to return to Scandinavia or settle in Hispania, and those who stayed were converted, either forcibly or gradually over time. These policies were phased out after Hispania's and Britannia's integrations on Gunhilda's recommendation.
It's worth noting that the Island of Socotra remained predominantly Arab and escaped Saint Wilhelmina's suppression of Arabs, especially since they would go on to form their own merchant republic in the style of the Italian and Hansetic maritime republics after the Ming made contact with the Reich, so I wonder what that community was like? I imagine Socotra did pretty well as a merchant republic since its in the middle of the Indian Ocean trade routes, although it did suffer stragtic bombing by the Loyalists and Axis occupation during WW2.
Socotra probably did very well, although it was a haven for many Arab pirates raiding the Arabian coast. I imagine much of this universe's golden age of piracy would be based around Socotra. After the decline of piracy, Socotra remains a very strategic trade hub and naval base until WW2, when it was bombed flat by both sides. After the war, the island declined and most of its surviving inhabitants moved to the mainland. The trade routes and naval base moved elsewhere.
By the way, are Kyrilos' descendants still Counts of Naxos at this point? Saint Wilhelmina did let him keep that title after she pardoned and recruited him, so I wonder if his family held onto that county.
They probably are.
 
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TheAnguishedOne

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I quite liked Georg's reflections on Horst, that was a nice eulogy even if it was just said to himself.
 

zenphoenix

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I quite liked Georg's reflections on Horst, that was a nice eulogy even if it was just said to himself.
Really shows the difference between the two brothers, and Georg's connection to Horst.
 

zenphoenix

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Study Session 5

Hofstadter Junior High School - November 9, 2016, 12:30 PM

Alex aimlessly wandered across the patio with his lunch. He still felt lost. He wanted to go back to the old days, when he still had people to hang out with. But he had to remind himself those days were gone forever. He had to do something to change his predicament. He just didn’t know what to do.

He wandered into a hallway and heard people speaking. Approaching a room, he made out Oskar’s voice. He was talking about something. Deciding he had nothing better to do, he walked into the room and took a seat. Oskar noticed him and nodded. Then he continued.

“Now, most of you probably don’t remember that day, fifteen years ago,” he said, “That day when everything changed. The day the towers fell.”

Alex wasn't even born when it happened, but he had heard his parents were affected by it. He lost his grandmother that day.

“It’s not an easy subject to discuss,” Oskar said, “But I’ll try my best. No doubt that’s why you came here, didn’t you? To learn about what happened that day. And why.”

Alex knew why that day happened. His parents told him. But they told him to keep it a secret, so he kept it to himself.

“We have to go back further than 2001,” Oskar said, “We have to go back all the way to the 19th century and Emperor Pierremaskin of the Meskwaki Empire. Now, Pierremaskin is considered to be the pioneer of pan-Eimerican nationalism. Not only with his frequent wars against the Kingdom of Kanata and border tensions with Fusang and later the Chinese Empire in Fusang, but in his writings and speeches. He was an eloquent writer who wrote several lengthy volumes on what would become pan-Eimericanism, in which he called for the expulsion of all non-native peoples and their allies from the Eimerican continents. Pierremaskin would serve as the inspiration for later ideologues who would give rise to Paulluism, Eimerican equalism, and, most importantly for our discussion, Mexicanist fundamentalism.

“Mexicanism is a politicized and fundamentalist form of Mexicayaotl,” Oskar said, “Its people call for the restoration of medieval Mexicayaotl traditions, such as human sacrifice, and for the integration of Mexicayaotl into all levels of government and society. They consider anybody who doesn’t adhere to their interpretation of the codices a heretic and apostate. The doctrines of af-Quetzalcoatl and MSC call for the expulsion of all non-Eimericans from Cemanahuac, the ancient Nahuatl term for the New World, specifically the Nahua world.”

“Why do they hate us?” a student asked. “Why do the Mexicans hate us so much?”

“That…that is a difficult question to answer,” Oskar said, “First things first, adjectives. Mexicans are the citizens of Mexico. Mexica are adherents of Mexicayaotl in general. Mexicanists are Mexica worshippers who are fundamentalists. And for good measure, Nahua denote the ethnicities of Mexico who traditionally speak one of the Nahuatl languages. Nahuatl is the language itself, and there are many dialects of it ranging from classical Nahuatl used by the priesthood and royal family to the Tejan and Tsalagihi Ayeli dialects. This means not all Mexicans are Mexicanists and not all Mexicanists, however reprehensible their beliefs may seem to us, are terrorists. Remember the Mexicayaotl priesthood phased out human sacrifice and have made other innovations to the faith since the fifteenth century. The modern faith is secular, and mainstream adherents swore off spreading the faith by the sword as modern Norse religious institutions have. They believe war should only be declared and waged by secular authorities. The faith has no business in politics.”

“But what about the terrorists?” a student asked. “Why do they hate us?”

“Again, that’s the same question your classmate asked,” Oskar said, “The terrorists don’t like the Reich for several reasons. First, Neurhomania has a substantial Nahua population, left over when the province annexed territory from the Triple Alliance in the Sunrise Invasion. The Mexicanists consider us Romans as invaders. Second, Kanata and Fusang are Roman allies. The ancient animosity between the Meskwaki with the Kanatans and Fusangren bled south, thanks to the complicated web of alliances spanning the continent—remember how during the Wars of Eimerican independence the Reich and Triple Alliance were simultaneously allies and enemies—and was adopted by other peoples formerly under Meskwaki rule, including Nahua populations, the more radical of which considered the Reich an enemy through being allied to them. Pierremaskin's pan-Eimericanism fed into later Paulluism and anti-equalism. Third, the Reich’s strong support for the UPM, carved out of Tawantinsuyuan territory with a large Nahua minority that was itself taken from the collapsing Triple Alliance a hundred years ago, has caused tensions with later Mexican regimes who consider the UPM a core part of Mexico. Fourth, the same thing applies for Free Aztlan, which was created the same way as the UPM at the same time, only with the intention of eventually being merged with Mexico and its government being put in power. Fifth, Christians are considered apostates, like other non-Mexicanists. Sixth, the fundamentalist-dominated government of Tejas at the time bankrolled many terrorist groups with millions of marks from oil profits. Add this all up, and there is a sizable group of people who want nothing more than to hate Romans and the Reich. And with a charismatic leader like Ocelotl Nochtli, an attack like November 9 would be inevitable.”

“What do we do then?” a student asked. “November 9 happened already, long ago. Where do we go now?”

“Here is where I change from talking about Mexicayaotl and Eimerican politics to Roman ones,” Oskar said, “Now, as your parents may have told you, the Schröder administration was alerted to the attacks before they happened, but chose to let them happen so it could use it to increase its public mandate and gain leverage; Schröder himself may have been blackmailed, but the fact remains he went along with the plot. He used this leverage to pass laws in the name of national security, among them the Imperial Patriot Act. The Sentinel cabal which was dominant in the administration passed the Patriot Act and other laws to expand mass surveillance of the Roman public and increase their influence in the media. Even after the exposure and dismantling of Sentinel, many of the laws it passed remain in force. Mass surveillance and censorship is only increasing in recent years. We are becoming more hateful and fearful of each other. This is exactly what the terrorists want. They want us to hate them back, to hate all Nahua and Mexicans back, to hate each other, so they they can gain more recruits. That is how they win, by making us lose our values. So we can’t lose our values. We have to remember that the past is past and our peoples shouldn’t be enemies because of what our ancestors did to each other. And Romans and Mexicans have cooperated in the past. In addition to Malintzin, many Mexican explorers in South Eimerica frequently teamed up with Roman ones to explore the Amazon. Acacitli Huemac, a leading Triple Alliance general during Sunrise Invasion, swallowed his pride and negotiated a surrender to the invading Romans to keep a brutal occupation from getting worse, although he knew he would be scapegoated, dishonored, and ultimately killed for it. And for all of the tensions between the Reich and the Triple Alliance, Neurhomania’s border with the Triple Alliance was mostly peaceful before and after the Sunrise Invasion, and Romans and Nahua lived in peace there for many generations. The terrorists in Mexico and demagogues here tell you coexistence is impossible and the other must be wiped out. Don’t listen to them. Not only is coexistence between the two of us possible, but it has been done before. We can continue that legacy, instead of perpetuating a cycle of hatred and violence. That is where we go from here.”

Alex heard Josh scoffing from the back of the room. “Lame.”
 
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Golden Dragon

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The Reich and Mexico have been rivals for about 750 years now if you count the Aztecs as Mexicans and it seems as if someone is going to die in a fireball.
 

TheAnguishedOne

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Sadly for both the Reich and Mexico, I fear the heir of the strongest nation in the world would agree with Josh's summation of Oskar's lesson.
 

zenphoenix

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The Reich and Mexico have been rivals for about 750 years now if you count the Aztecs as Mexicans and it seems as if someone is going to die in a fireball.
Question is, who throws the fireball?
Sadly for both the Reich and Mexico, I fear the heir of the strongest nation in the world would agree with Josh's summation of Oskar's lesson.
And he is actually in a position to do something about that...
 

CaptainAlvious

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And thus the legacy of the turbulent history of Mexican-Roman relations continues to linger on, causing suffering and mayhem centuries later and likely will continue to go on for decades more. And to think it all began with a small group of Viking explorers being banished from Scandinavia for a long forgotten crime. A shame Josh kind seems to dismiss that lesson through, he probably is more of a fan of the more patriotic histories of Augustin Kommenos, the Kaisers Siegfried and Victoria, and their generals' campaigns against Mexica than the type of history he considers to be revisionist and politically correct in this class. Old habits die hard it seems.

Since groups like the Zapotecs and Tarascans often formed separatist movements and even broke away from Mexico at some points like the late Triple Alliance/early PARA era, I wonder if the current crisis in Cemanahuac is having any affect on sectarian sentiments brewing within Mexico and its minorities?
Question is, who throws the fireball?
If you expect the fireball in this metaphor to be a bit more literal in the form of nuclear weapons, probably the Reich.:p

Otherwise on a more serious note, the worst I can see happening from the Mexican side would be the MSC pulling off what the Paulluist Carib Republic and Equalist East Indonesia managed to accomplish in the Erhard and Schmidt/Wilson era, and the MSC setting foot on Roman territory with their inevitable atrocities would be pretty terrible so let's hope that doesn't happen. :eek:
That actually is what I plan on explaining that whole incident with, that the Cult manipulated his wife and spymaster into killing Heinrich. But my idea was they wanted to install their preferred candidate on the throne after Heinrich to sideline and later kill Friedrich. Friedrich caught on to the plot but was unable to save Heinrich in time. The Cult moved to kill Friedrich, but he rallied the electors and other nobles behind him to purge the plotters and their Cult backers, leading to them electing him Kaiser.
That actually sounds like a great plot for a flashback plot, I'm interested to see how that goes. Any plans to cover the fates of Fredrich's son and daughter in law and how that affected Fredrich the Glorious' upbringing, since Wilhelm said that they were also murdered by the Cult?
Gunhilda isn't exactly Nephilim, just an angel who incarnated into human form, but I agree she would see the deportations as going too far, making them just as bad as the Cult.
Okay, I was a little convinced little confused because of an EU4 reference where in the arc where we first learned about Gunhilda being an Angel, Wolfram and Sarah ran into a Schweinfurt said to be part Nephilim that defended them from Micheal's group of Angels hunting them, with the Schweinfurt later going on to say that the Nephilim were extinct until Gunhilda's emergence, hence why I thought she was Nephilim.
Yeah, the Schweinfurts mostly focused on the south and Sicily and left the north alone as long as they paid taxes and acknowledged their rule.
I wonder if the same is true for the Schweinfurt holdings in North Africa? I can see Carthage and Sicily being the main base for the Schweinfurt viceroyalty, with local authorities in Egypt and Cyrene being fairly autonomous.
Socotra probably did very well, although it was a haven for many Arab pirates raiding the Arabian coast. I imagine much of this universe's golden age of piracy would be based around Socotra. After the decline of piracy, Socotra remains a very strategic trade hub and naval base until WW2, when it was bombed flat by both sides. After the war, the island declined and most of its surviving inhabitants moved to the mainland. The trade routes and naval base moved elsewhere.
I wonder that whole heaven for Piracy thing makes Socotra the Port Royal analogue of TTL, especially with it becoming less significant sometime after the Golden Age of Piracy and the peak of maritime trade on the Indian Ocean? I can it seeing portrayed that way in the genre of pirate fiction focusing on Arab piracy.

Continuing the discussions in the post I just linked; I know most of the Colonial genre is associated with Africa at this point, but if there were some colonial fiction set in other colonial frontiers like Neurhomania instead of Africa, like some of the earlier lore ideas you discussed on this thread, would there any notable differences in terms of general tropes of these stories due to the history and culture of these different settings?

I wonder how the Roman Malian communities in North Africa, Europe and Neurhomaina are shaping up and getting along with neighboring cultural groups. One the one hand, you described how Malian Lusitania is one of the poorest regions of Hispania due to informal segregation and discrimination against the Malians and Normans there, but Mauretania seemed to be on the other end of economic well being since the Reich invested into its port cities to be used as major naval and trade hubs on the Atlantic, at least according to the Origins of Modernity breakdown of the Roman provinces. Nsolria's probably has a situation closer to Portugal than Mauretania I imagined, since Queecha and European descended Neurhomanains have much larger populations than them, although they might be better off than the discriminated Nahua in the north.

I wonder were the Romuva and Slavic high preists when the Equalists took over Russia, the Baltics and their residences in the Occupied Terrorites ended up? It's likely the Slavic priesthood fled to Tsarist Russia/Sweden with the rest of the Rurikid supporters, but I like to think the Romuva priesthood fled to the Lithuanian communities in Egypt, temporally making Aegyptus the hub of Lithuanian cultural and religious traditions not represed by the Soviets, perhaps adding some Coptic influences into the Egyptian branch of Antras Sansas as well.

As for other relgious heads that settled in the Reich during Ck2, You once said you vassalized the Zunist high priest and settled them in Arabia after the Timurid Wars of the late 14th century, so I wonder if that means there's a large Zunist community in the part of Arabia they settled, wherever that would be?
 
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Golden Dragon

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That actually is what I plan on explaining that whole incident with, that the Cult manipulated his wife and spymaster into killing Heinrich. But my idea was they wanted to install their preferred candidate on the throne after Heinrich to sideline and later kill Friedrich. Friedrich caught on to the plot but was unable to save Heinrich in time. The Cult moved to kill Friedrich, but he rallied the electors and other nobles behind him to purge the plotters and their Cult backers, leading to them electing him Kaiser.
What exactly happened with Heinrich IV again? All I remember that his wife and spymaster killed him while Siegfried was king of Germany and was elected Holy Roman Emperor starting the path to glory, but I never saw his actual experience even in heaven all we saw was him dreaming about him being killed.
 

zenphoenix

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And thus the legacy of the turbulent history of Mexican-Roman relations continues to linger on, causing suffering and mayhem centuries later and likely will continue to go on for decades more. And to think it all began with a small group of Viking explorers being banished from Scandinavia for a long forgotten crime. A shame Josh kind seems to dismiss that lesson through, he probably is more of a fan of the more patriotic histories of Augustin Kommenos, the Kaisers Siegfried and Victoria, and their generals' campaigns against Mexica than the type of history he considers to be revisionist and politically correct in this class. Old habits die hard it seems.
The destiny of two nations has been forever changed by the crime of a single Viking over a thousand years ago. That's the butterfly effect for you.

Or maybe just the conquests of Friedrich the Great and Prince Nikephoros and the victories of Siegfried and Sigismund against the barbarian menace. He likes tales of glory and triumph over forces of evil, not nuanced discussions on the costs of war.
Since groups like the Zapotecs and Tarascans often formed separatist movements and even broke away from Mexico at some points like the late Triple Alliance/early PARA era, I wonder if the current crisis in Cemanahuac is having any affect on sectarian sentiments brewing within Mexico and its minorities?
I did mention there were Zapotecs and Tlaxcalans who took advantage of the chaos to rebel (like during the first Gulf War), but Tarascan is very quiet these days.
If you expect the fireball in this metaphor to be a bit more literal in the form of nuclear weapons, probably the Reich.:p
Depends on how big the fireball is...
Otherwise on a more serious note, the worst I can see happening from the Mexican side would be the MSC pulling off what the Paulluist Carib Republic and Equalist East Indonesia managed to accomplish in the Erhard and Schmidt/Wilson era, and the MSC setting foot on Roman territory with their inevitable atrocities would be pretty terrible so let's hope that doesn't happen. :eek:
MSC has no ships, so I think this is beyond even the AI's power unfortunately.
That actually sounds like a great plot for a flashback plot, I'm interested to see how that goes. Any plans to cover the fates of Fredrich's son and daughter in law and how that affected Fredrich the Glorious' upbringing, since Wilhelm said that they were also murdered by the Cult?
I'll consider it. No ideas right now but I think I can figure something out later on.
Okay, I was a little convinced little confused because of an EU4 reference where in the arc where we first learned about Gunhilda being an Angel, Wolfram and Sarah ran into a Schweinfurt said to be part Nephilim that defended them from Micheal's group of Angels hunting them, with the Schweinfurt later going on to say that the Nephilim were extinct until Gunhilda's emergence, hence why I thought she was Nephilim.
Oh, I completely forgot that. Disregard my previous statement then.
I wonder if the same is true for the Schweinfurt holdings in North Africa? I can see Carthage and Sicily being the main base for the Schweinfurt viceroyalty, with local authorities in Egypt and Cyrene being fairly autonomous.
I think Gunhilda's main base was Modena before her descendants relocated to Carthage. They'd directly control the big cities and ports and let the rest administer themselves.
I wonder that whole heaven for Piracy thing makes Socotra the Port Royal analogue of TTL, especially with it becoming less significant sometime after the Golden Age of Piracy and the peak of maritime trade on the Indian Ocean? I can it seeing portrayed that way in the genre of pirate fiction focusing on Arab piracy.
That's what I'm now envisioning, yes.
Continuing the discussions in the post I just linked; I know most of the Colonial genre is associated with Africa at this point, but if there were some colonial fiction set in other colonial frontiers like Neurhomania instead of Africa, like some of the earlier lore ideas you discussed on this thread, would there any notable differences in terms of general tropes of these stories due to the history and culture of these different settings?
There certainly is, although Neurhomanian colonials are more focused on combating the hostile environment and promote themes of independence, individualism, and self-sufficiency.
I wonder how the Roman Malian communities in North Africa, Europe and Neurhomaina are shaping up and getting along with neighboring cultural groups. One the one hand, you described how Malian Lusitania is one of the poorest regions of Hispania due to informal segregation and discrimination against the Malians and Normans there, but Mauretania seemed to be on the other end of economic well being since the Reich invested into its port cities to be used as major naval and trade hubs on the Atlantic, at least according to the Origins of Modernity breakdown of the Roman provinces. Nsolria's probably has a situation closer to Portugal than Mauretania I imagined, since Queecha and European descended Neurhomanains have much larger populations than them, although they might be better off than the discriminated Nahua in the north.
Nsorala is similar to Africa's situation in that it's been mostly ignored in favor of the northern core, but discrimination isn't as bad due to the other minorities and mixed populations present.
I wonder were the Romuva and Slavic high preists when the Equalists took over Russia, the Baltics and their residences in the Occupied Terrorites ended up? It's likely the Slavic priesthood fled to Tsarist Russia/Sweden with the rest of the Rurikid supporters, but I like to think the Romuva priesthood fled to the Lithuanian communities in Egypt, temporally making Aegyptus the hub of Lithuanian cultural and religious traditions not represed by the Soviets, perhaps adding some Coptic influences into the Egyptian branch of Antras Sansas as well.
Those who fled probably went to Scandinavia or settled in various areas around the Reich. I like the idea that the Romuvans settled in Egypt and fused elements of Coptic Christianity with Antras Sansas.
As for other relgious heads that settled in the Reich during Ck2, You once said you vassalized the Zunist high priest and settled them in Arabia after the Timurid Wars of the late 14th century, so I wonder if that means there's a large Zunist community in the part of Arabia they settled, wherever that would be?
There might be but honestly I forgot about him and haven't done anything about this.
What exactly happened with Heinrich IV again? All I remember that his wife and spymaster killed him while Siegfried was king of Germany and was elected Holy Roman Emperor starting the path to glory, but I never saw his actual experience even in heaven all we saw was him dreaming about him being killed.
To be frank, I didn't write that much else about him other than that. I can't even remember if his number was III, IV, and V so you might have seen it wildly vary over the last five years. But these days I like to think he was killed by the Cult.
 

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I can't even remember if his number was III, IV, and V so you might have seen it wildly vary over the last five years.
Well Heinrich the IV was the one in the Ck2 1066 date so unless he died of Syphilis or the plague I thought that he will be the one murdered.
 

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Well Heinrich the IV was the one in the Ck2 1066 date so unless he died of Syphilis or the plague I thought that he will be the one murdered.
Then it's definitely Heinrich IV.