The Hohenzollern Empire 5: Holy Phoenix - An Empire of Jerusalem Megacampaign in New World Order

[GhostRider124]

Lately I 've been wondering about somethings. For example I wonder how different Fusang and Penglai Chinese is from mainland Chinese? Such as are they similar to how US and Australian English is different from UK English?

Also I remember you saying that Tawantinsuyu uses Chinese Characters for their Quechua language. This got me thinking if over the years that made Quechua similar to other Chinese languages like Cantonese in were when they are spoken they are nothing alike but when written out they are the same or is it like Korean Hanja, Japanese Kanji or Vietnamese Chữ Nôm in were the Characters are the same but mean different things? For example in this video

at 0:41 the set of Chinese Characters means “Mr.” but in Kanji it means “teacher”?

 

[zenphoenix]

Lately I 've been wondering about somethings. For example I wonder how different Fusang and Penglai Chinese is from mainland Chinese? Such as are they similar to how US and Australian English is different from UK English?

The Song left mainland China before the evolution of modern Mandarin Chinese. They picked up a lot of Chinese who spoke various regional dialects as they fled south, particularly Yue speakers in Guangdong (Yue is a larger group of dialects that includes Cantonese). Guangdong was where in real life the Song resistance made their last stand against the Mongols, and here it was where the fleet set out from. In Penglai, the Chinese language would evolve in very different ways. Since the Mandarin evolved due to older northern dialects being mixed together due to the Mongols breaking older cultural institutions to enforce their rule, Penglai Chinese might sound more “archaic” and southern/Yue influenced. At least that’s what the primary dialect used by the government would sound like. The imperial court would continue using Classical Chinese which would allow it to understand people from the mainland and Fusang after reconnecting with them. Common dialects would evolve differently. The old mainland dialects would mix together since people from all over the mainland were now stuck together in the same settlements. They’d take some influences in words and phrases from the aborigines of the east coast, but since there are so many different aborigine languages on the continent the imports would vary depending on the settlement, leading to the emergence of new dialects. Like the government standard dialect, these common dialects would sound more archaic and Yue influenced than mainland ones. Isolation for 400+ years would allow Penglai Chinese to not change too much between the 13th century and when contact was reestablished in the 16th century or so. After that, Penglai Chinese would start incorporating early Mandarin influences, especially the standard dialect. The mainland Ming court would see the Penglai dialects as backwards sounding and rural compared to its Mandarin (as Mandarin was the dialect of the Ming and Qing imperial courts in real life, if I remember correctly), which would play into the Ming’s attempts at reunification and the eventual mainland takeover of Penglai. In the colonial era, Mandarin was promoted and local dialects suppressed. After independence, the Penglai government still uses Mandarin for official documents. Mandarin is still commonly used by businesses and civilian institutions as well due to being the prestige dialect of mainland China, leading to the decline of many common dialects.

Fusang Chinese went in a similar direction. Its Jin Dynasty had roots in northern Jurchen-speaking clans which were semi-Sinicized. The Jin had limited contact with the Song outside of occasional alliances against common enemies like the Liao Dynasty, so their culture developed differently even on the mainland. Wikipedia states the Jin court used Old Mandarin, or at least a precursor to it. When the Mongols drove them north into Siberia, they picked up some Jurchens and Siberians along the way. As I mentioned in the last gameplay chapter, the Jin settlers split into three factions along the west coast of North Eimerica, since they settled a much larger area than the Song settlers. This led to the emergence of three major dialects of Fusang Chinese. All drew influences from northern dialects on the mainland, as well as Old Mandarin, so it might sound less “archaic” compared to the Penglai dialects due to Old Mandarin's influence. Fusang dialects would also be more northern and Jurchen influenced compared to the southern influences of the Penglai dialects. But the dialect of each court differs even more. The northern court of Hongzhou (based around what would be Vancouver) embraced the local natives and their traditions, so their dialect has far more Pacific Northwest influences. The southern court of Zhumasi (around San Diego) contracted inland natives like the Diné/Navajo as mercenaries and frontier settlers, while working closely with coastal natives like the Tongva and Chumash for agriculture and fishing, so their Chinese doesn't have as many native influences. The central court of Jinshan, which assimilated the natives under its rule due to having the largest population, spoke Chinese with the least influences. They considered the native influenced Chinese of the other two courts as almost barbaric and attempted to stamp them out once they defeated the other two courts. Naturally, this was impossible due to the size of Fusang, and in any case the Jin court's expansion led to the emergence of new dialects with influences from the major native groups they interacted with, especially Chinese dialects developed by natives who became Sinicized through the Pagoda Path and the spread of Buddhism. Since the Chinese reunification movement of the 19th century was launched in Fusang, I imagine Fusang Chinese was spared from the Mandarin standardization imposed on Penglai, although Mandarin was adopted by the colonial government and some attempts at assimilation and standardization happened. In the modern day, the same issues with Mandarin being a prestige language used in politics and business are present, which leads to the decline of common dialects.

The Fusang and Penglai dialects are not as close to the mainland dialects as UK and US English. It's more like the relationship between the Romance languages, though not quite as a Penglai Chinese speaker will have trouble understanding Mandarin unlike Italian and Spanish speakers who can understand each other. A Fusang Chinese speaker would find Mandarin slightly easier to understand, but the Penglai and Fusang dialects are largely mutually unintelligible with each other and mainland dialects. Not only is it more convenient to speak Mandarin nowadays, but there's still a cultural stigma left over from the colonial era, especially in Fusang due to the Jinshan court looking down on the dialects of the other two courts, that non-Mandarin dialects are backwards and uncivilized. Sort of like how the French government treats speakers of regional languages like Occitan and Breton in real life.

Also I remember you saying that Tawantinsuyu uses Chinese Characters for their Quechua language. This got me thinking if over the years that made Quechua similar to other Chinese languages like Cantonese in were when they are spoken they are nothing alike but when written out they are the same or is it like Korean Hanja, Japanese Kanji or Vietnamese Chữ Nôm in were the Characters are the same but mean different things? For example in this video at 0:41 the set of Chinese Characters means “Mr.” but in Kanji it means “teacher”?

Quechua adopted the Chinese writing system because it lacked a written language to begin with, and the Tawantinsuyuan ruling class saw adopting some aspects of Chinese culture as a way to secure an alliance with the Jin, which would give them access to guns, horses, and other Chinese innovations for help in their war against the Triple Alliance. Like in Chữ Nôm, Chinese characters are used to represent roughly the same thing in Quechua, but new characters are made up based on Chinese components for things without direct equivalents. The grammatical structure of Quechua seems to be at least superficially similar to Japanese, which would imply the writing system developed like kanji did, but unlike . Something similar to hiragana and katakana would emerge to represent words or grammatical constructs that aren't or can't be represented by Chinese. I'd say it's somewhere between Chữ Nôm and kanji/hiragana/katakana.

The written language would primarily be used by the royal court, which also picked up Classical Chinese for diplomacy with Fusang. The general public would only speak Quechua, not write it, for a while. This writing system would slowly filter down to the public as the educational system improves. But like with Japanese kanji, a Chinese speaker would not understand it due to the different grammar, phonology, and new characters used, both derived from Chinese and indigenous characters. Despite there being about six or seven centuries of Chinese influence, Quechua being a New World language would make it way harder to tie closely with the Chinese dialects than, say, Japanese and Korean. In the present day, it would still remain Quechua with a few Chinese loanwords, and its writing system would still be applying Chinese characters to represent Quechua words.

The quipus used by Tawantinsuyu and other regional cultures of the time would be integrated into the writing system. Evidence for the quipus being used as a true writing system is still debated by historians, but it has been shown that they at least could convey numbers. This numerical system could have been translated into written script using specialized characters with no Chinese basis, like hiragana and katakana. Traditional quipus might still be used by some groups in a religious capacity (though as stated we can't be sure if they were used to convey religious concepts).

Also, for your example, Chinese phrases typically can be used to describe multiple related things within the same language. The Chinese 先生 is used when addressing your teacher by name, but you can also use it to address male individuals along the lines of "Mr." or "sir." It's the same thing in Japanese, though I think in Japanese the teacher connotation is focused on due to the language and culture emphasizing honorifics and seniority more than in China.

 

[zenphoenix]

The Song left mainland China before the evolution of modern Mandarin Chinese. They picked up a lot of Chinese who spoke various regional dialects as they fled south, particularly Yue speakers in Guangdong (Yue is a larger group of dialects that includes Cantonese). Guangdong was where in real life the Song resistance made their last stand against the Mongols, and here it was where the fleet set out from. In Penglai, the Chinese language would evolve in very different ways. Since the Mandarin evolved due to older northern dialects being mixed together due to the Mongols breaking older cultural institutions to enforce their rule, Penglai Chinese might sound more “archaic” and southern/Yue influenced. At least that’s what the primary dialect used by the government would sound like. The imperial court would continue using Classical Chinese which would allow it to understand people from the mainland and Fusang after reconnecting with them. Common dialects would evolve differently. The old mainland dialects would mix together since people from all over the mainland were now stuck together in the same settlements. They’d take some influences in words and phrases from the aborigines of the east coast, but since there are so many different aborigine languages on the continent the imports would vary depending on the settlement, leading to the emergence of new dialects. Like the government standard dialect, these common dialects would sound more archaic and Yue influenced than mainland ones. Isolation for 400+ years would allow Penglai Chinese to not change too much between the 13th century and when contact was reestablished in the 16th century or so. After that, Penglai Chinese would start incorporating early Mandarin influences, especially the standard dialect. The mainland Ming court would see the Penglai dialects as backwards sounding and rural compared to its Mandarin (as Mandarin was the dialect of the Ming and Qing imperial courts in real life, if I remember correctly), which would play into the Ming’s attempts at reunification and the eventual mainland takeover of Penglai. In the colonial era, Mandarin was promoted and local dialects suppressed. After independence, the Penglai government still uses Mandarin for official documents. Mandarin is still commonly used by businesses and civilian institutions as well due to being the prestige dialect of mainland China, leading to the decline of many common dialects.

Fusang Chinese went in a similar direction. Its Jin Dynasty had roots in northern Jurchen-speaking clans which were semi-Sinicized. The Jin had limited contact with the Song outside of occasional alliances against common enemies like the Liao Dynasty, so their culture developed differently even on the mainland. Wikipedia states the Jin court used Old Mandarin, or at least a precursor to it. When the Mongols drove them north into Siberia, they picked up some Jurchens and Siberians along the way. As I mentioned in the last gameplay chapter, the Jin settlers split into three factions along the west coast of North Eimerica, since they settled a much larger area than the Song settlers. This led to the emergence of three major dialects of Fusang Chinese. All drew influences from northern dialects on the mainland, as well as Old Mandarin, so it might sound less “archaic” compared to the Penglai dialects due to Old Mandarin's influence. Fusang dialects would also be more northern and Jurchen influenced compared to the southern influences of the Penglai dialects. But the dialect of each court differs even more. The northern court of Hongzhou (based around what would be Vancouver) embraced the local natives and their traditions, so their dialect has far more Pacific Northwest influences. The southern court of Zhumasi (around San Diego) contracted inland natives like the Diné/Navajo as mercenaries and frontier settlers, while working closely with coastal natives like the Tongva and Chumash for agriculture and fishing, so their Chinese doesn't have as many native influences. The central court of Jinshan, which assimilated the natives under its rule due to having the largest population, spoke Chinese with the least influences. They considered the native influenced Chinese of the other two courts as almost barbaric and attempted to stamp them out once they defeated the other two courts. Naturally, this was impossible due to the size of Fusang, and in any case the Jin court's expansion led to the emergence of new dialects with influences from the major native groups they interacted with, especially Chinese dialects developed by natives who became Sinicized through the Pagoda Path and the spread of Buddhism. Since the Chinese reunification movement of the 19th century was launched in Fusang, I imagine Fusang Chinese was spared from the Mandarin standardization imposed on Penglai, although Mandarin was adopted by the colonial government and some attempts at assimilation and standardization happened. In the modern day, the same issues with Mandarin being a prestige language used in politics and business are present, which leads to the decline of common dialects.

The Fusang and Penglai dialects are not as close to the mainland dialects as UK and US English. It's more like the relationship between the Romance languages, though not quite as a Penglai Chinese speaker will have trouble understanding Mandarin unlike Italian and Spanish speakers who can understand each other. A Fusang Chinese speaker would find Mandarin slightly easier to understand, but the Penglai and Fusang dialects are largely mutually unintelligible with each other and mainland dialects. Not only is it more convenient to speak Mandarin nowadays, but there's still a cultural stigma left over from the colonial era, especially in Fusang due to the Jinshan court looking down on the dialects of the other two courts, that non-Mandarin dialects are backwards and uncivilized. Sort of like how the French government treats speakers of regional languages like Occitan and Breton in real life.

Quechua adopted the Chinese writing system because it lacked a written language to begin with, and the Tawantinsuyuan ruling class saw adopting some aspects of Chinese culture as a way to secure an alliance with the Jin, which would give them access to guns, horses, and other Chinese innovations for help in their war against the Triple Alliance. Like in Chữ Nôm, Chinese characters are used to represent roughly the same thing in Quechua, but new characters are made up based on Chinese components for things without direct equivalents. The grammatical structure of Quechua seems to be at least superficially similar to Japanese, which would imply the writing system developed like kanji did, but unlike . Something similar to hiragana and katakana would emerge to represent words or grammatical constructs that aren't or can't be represented by Chinese. I'd say it's somewhere between Chữ Nôm and kanji/hiragana/katakana.

The written language would primarily be used by the royal court, which also picked up Classical Chinese for diplomacy with Fusang. The general public would only speak Quechua, not write it, for a while. This writing system would slowly filter down to the public as the educational system improves. But like with Japanese kanji, a Chinese speaker would not understand it due to the different grammar, phonology, and new characters used, both derived from Chinese and indigenous characters. Despite there being about six or seven centuries of Chinese influence, Quechua being a New World language would make it way harder to tie closely with the Chinese dialects than, say, Japanese and Korean. In the present day, it would still remain Quechua with a few Chinese loanwords, and its writing system would still be applying Chinese characters to represent Quechua words.

The quipus used by Tawantinsuyu and other regional cultures of the time would be integrated into the writing system. Evidence for the quipus being used as a true writing system is still debated by historians, but it has been shown that they at least could convey numbers. This numerical system could have been translated into written script using specialized characters with no Chinese basis, like hiragana and katakana. Traditional quipus might still be used by some groups in a religious capacity (though as stated we can't be sure if they were used to convey religious concepts).

Also, for your example, Chinese phrases typically can be used to describe multiple related things within the same language. The Chinese 先生 is used when addressing your teacher by name, but you can also use it to address male individuals along the lines of "Mr." or "sir." It's the same thing in Japanese, though I think in Japanese the teacher connotation is focused on due to the language and culture emphasizing honorifics and seniority more than in China.

After thinking about this some more, I’ve come to the conclusion that Tawantinsuyu most certainly wasn’t the only New World political entity to adopt the Chinese writing system. Tawantinsuyu may have exported its variant to its neighbors, like the native confederation that would eventually become the UPM as well as less organized tribes throughout South Eimerica. In North Eimerica, Sinicized natives within the Jin empire, as well as natives living close to Jin territory, would have adopted a Chinese writing system for their languages.

Other writing systems would have spread as well. Those in the OTL American South like the Táyshá, Muskogeans, and Choctaw would have adopted the Nahuatl writing system, though many of these had that script imposed on them (and after the collapse of the Triple Alliance would’ve changed to the Latin, Chinese, or Mayan scripts depending on which major or regional power depending on who they wanted as an ally—in a way, think of Serbo-Croatian being one language but written in Latin and Cyrillic in Croatia and Serbia, respectively). The Caribbean natives would adopt the Mayan script due to the influence of Mayan merchants. Those in the north and northeast would adopt the Latin script used by the Scandinavian colonizers of Kanata (since the old Norse runes would’ve been on their way out by then). A few like the Cherokee or Iroquois (I don’t feel like using the in-universe names here since they’re pretty long) would have devised their own scripts. Due to the complexity of their writing systems, the Mayans and Mexica probably would have derived a simpler script for common use over time, just like the ancient Egyptians had scripts other than hieroglyphics.

Also, while researching this I found that it's still being debated if Nahuatl had a true writing system by the time of the Spanish conquest, so I'm going to assume it doesn't in the 13th century. Presumably by the time the Mexica religion is reformed at the end of CK2 so that the cult of Huitzilopochtli is marginalized, human sacrifice is no longer central to the Triple Alliance's religion and society, and a codified book of religious tenets is agreed upon (read: enforced by the huetlatoani), Nahuatl had developed a complete enough writing system so that such a book can exist. Most likely the Mexica would take inspiration from the Mayan script, but there were also some writing systems used by other Mesoamerican groups like the Zapotecs, so those could also be incorporated into Nahuatl in addition to what they already had. And while researching this, I also got reminded that there were multiple Mayan languages and the Mayan script was used for Classical Mayan, so presumably after the initial settlers of Mayapan fled to the Caribbean islands, the languages they spoke merged with each other into a new one, and the script was then applied to that while still retaining its original use for Classical Mayan.

I remember mentioning the Tawantinsuyuan government reformed to incorporate Chinese political concepts like the Mandate of Heaven. This would mean a lot of old institutions and concepts that the OTL Inca Empire kept until its demise were discarded or reformed along Chinese lines. The most important one would have been the role of the Sapa Inca, where each new one would remain the son of Inti but no longer be disinherited from their predecessor's lands and be forced to conquer new ones. I guess it would be a lot like how Japanese society, specifically the Yamato imperial court, reorganized itself after the introduction of Buddhism and Chinese political concepts.

All this talk about the Triple Alliance, Mayapan, and Tawantinsuyu naturally led me to think about the UPM and what influences it took from all three. The answer is...I really don't know yet. I'd have to do research on all three in addition to the Muisca before I can get to the UPM.

Now I have an idea for another Eimerican infographic showing which writing system each member state uses and a rewrite of my Tawantinsuyu lore chapter so it isn't 80% lifted from Wikipedia. Maybe I'll go through them all again once I reach the 2090s or so.

 

[zenphoenix]

Scared​

The Majlis - February 20

Naqsh-e Jahan Square formed the center of Isfahan’s political, economic, and cultural scene, by design. It was constructed in the 17th century by Shahbanu Furuzan I, who was remembered in the modern day as Furuzan the Architect for her role in funding the construction of almost every major Isfahan landmark seen today. To the public, her city revitalization projects, funded and supplied by Persia’s small colonial empire, were a symbol of early national pride. A charismatic negotiator who kept Persia out of the Roman Anarchy and the early decades of the Fifty Years’ War, her projects also showed her neighbors the splendor of Persia and Isfahan’s status as an equal to Berlin, Constantinople, Nanjing, Kyiv, and Delhi.

However, Furuzan’s ulterior goal with remaking Isfahan, as evident from the layout of Naqsh-e Jahan Square, was to consolidate her own power. Her father, the notorious Saltuk I, died when she was 4, after only five years on the throne. For the next ten years, regents ran Persia, and Furuzan watched as her regents made corrupt deals with powerful businesses, aristocrats, and religious leaders to enrich themselves at the people’s expense. By the time she was crowned Shahbanu at age 15, the Persian monarchy had been reduced to being a figurehead of the regents and their backers in the merchant and noble classes, who carved up Isfahan between them and left the provinces to be tormented by regional governors and military officers. She immediately corrected that. Using her charisma, she convinced loyal generals to march into Isfahan and purge those she considered responsible for her kingdom’s current state.

Once she had eliminated all of her enemies, she made sure such a situation would never happen again, particularly as her western neighbor descended further into the Anarchy. The construction projects she funded across Isfahan aimed to physically centralize power on herself and the Persian monarchy, breaking the power structures that led to her disastrous regency council. She built Ali Qapu Palace on the west side of the square as her new home. The east side opened into the Grand Bazaar, allowing her personal troops to regulate business and ensure no merchant grew powerful enough to create a monopoly or to directly challenge her.

On the south side, she ordered the construction of a new Imperial Fire Temple, where the Zoroastrian high priesthood would conduct services under her watchful eye. Although built with Islamic architectural influences, this temple was the first state-sanctioned fire temple of the Seljuk era to not double as a mosque, as all mosques and fire temples since Alp Arslan’s reign had been combined as such. Alp Arslan and his successors had adopted a policy of gradual conversion away from Islam, attempting to reinterpret Zoroastrianism through a monotheistic lens with substantial Islamic influences to make it palatable to Persia’s Muslims. However, there were many Muslims who saw such practices as heresy and the Seljuks as apostates. In the centuries after the Pagan Resurgence, known as the “Return of the Old Ways” by Persian historians, countless Muslim communities resisted the state-sponsored Zoroastrian resurgence, and some had powerful backers among the nobility and merchant class. Knowing that many powerful Muslims opposed her famously anti-Muslim father, who as crown prince in 1570 had sacked Baghdad and brutally executed the two caliphs living there, she suspected at least a few of those individuals may have sat on her regency council to undo Saltuk’s legacy, particularly his religious edicts. In response, Furuzan fully embraced and expanded her father’s anti-Muslim edicts, dropping her predecessors’ gradual conversion and pursued an aggressive Zoroastrianization policy, with the Imperial Fire Temple, and accompanying theological reforms restoring the dualism of mainstream pre-Seljuk Zoroastrianism, as the first step in eradicating a perceived Muslim fifth column. This policy largely worked. Persia’s Muslim communities declined over the next century and almost ceased to exist by the 19th century. Many remaining Muslims subsequently joined growing revolutionary movements. While most of these Muslims simply wanted an end to aggressive suppression and conversion efforts, some embraced more radical goals and joined ideologues like Iskandar Yinal.

That left the east side. Originally, Furuzan had a second fire temple built there, but during the Persian Revolution it had been burned down by Yinal’s revolutionaries. Afterwards, a new building took its place. The Majlis Building was to be a symbol of the modern meritocratic Persia. Its existence was intended to placate the remaining revolutionary groups. One of the first laws it passed was to recognize Persia’s remaining Muslim community and end state-sponsored conversion. However, its location on the square was another reminder that this early legislature was still subordinate to the shah. The first Majlis was little more than a unicameral consulting body for the shah, much like the Diet under Sigismund II. The Muslim tolerance law was passed only with the approval of the shah. By the turn of the century, it had taken on similar legislative powers as the Diet of Franz Joseph’s later years. The first two world wars, along with the rise of Reza Khan and his fascist movement, caused the decline and ultimately destruction of the Majlis, both politically and physically, by 1944. A new building for the reborn Majlis opened in the 1950s, but that was destroyed during World War III by a Soviet airstrike.

The modern building standing before Julian was designed by Gunduz’s husband in the 2010s, after decades of being stuck in bureaucratic red tape. Shahrokh had gone for a blend of traditional and modern designs, just as the Imperial Fire Temple, despite being an exclusively Zoroastrian temple, was built with Islamic designs. The end result was something that featured a strange yet oddly appealing mix of Islamic domes and geometric patterns, Persian acoustic designs and naturalistic murals, and Roman columns and façades. The Majlis Building’s striking mix of modernity and tradition stood in contrast to the historical buildings around it, a symbol of the postwar Persia that had left Reza Khan behind and taken up the torch of meritocracy. Yet there were many reminders of the past incorporated into the design. The flag waving over the main dome was made up of a royal lion and sun over the revolutionary tricolor, which was decided on in the 1880s after decades of violent debates. Large constantly burning Zoroastrian braziers flanked the entrance. The naturalistic motifs and acoustic designs were inspired by those in the palace, while the geometric patterns came from the Imperial Fire Temple. Finally and most egregiously, a statue of Furuzan the Architect, portrayed with a solar halo like Mithra in Zoroastrianism, stood watch in front of the entrance, much like how Saint Gunhilda’s statue used to stand in Augustaeon Square.

Honestly, that’s way too on the nose, even by the Seljuks’ standards.

Julian ignored the statue and braziers and murals and entered the building. The Majlis was in session today, and he could hear the politicians bickering inside the chamber, like they usually did. The modern Majlis was a bicameral legislature based on the Roman model, with an upper Senate and a lower Consultative Diwan. The Diwan’s name always threw Julian for a loop, because the Persian chancellor was also referred to as a diwan in Persian. Then there was the Diwan of Mithra, the judiciary. In Julian’s book, that name was a bit pretentious and full of double meanings—Mithra was associated with justice, but his place in the name cast doubt on Persia’s official status as a secular nation and the judiciary’s independence from the monarchy’s will.

As he got closer to the chamber doors, the arguments became clearer, allowing him to recognize voices and make out phrases. It was easier to recognize voices. He reliably identified Izinchi’s voice among the others, but her accent made it hard to hear what anyone was saying.

“Now ye listen ‘ere—oi, ah said listen ‘ere!” There she goes again. Is she not even trying with her accent now?

“No, you need to show some respect!”

“Respect? RESPECT, YE SAY?!”

“Lower your voice!”

“Why din ye haud yer weesht instead! Ah dinnae like say’n this, but A’m scunnered with th’ way tis ‘ere Majlis is treating meself and th’ right an’ proper lads an’ lassies of Our Lassie’s Guv’ment.”

“We just want accountability, Chancellor Ochimeca. Accountability for who is responsible for the war crimes committed by Roman forces in Mesopotamia—“

“We lost our country an’ our families, an’ ye want tae talk ‘bae accountability fer us?! Ye listen ‘ere, ‘cause ay dinnae want to repeat meself. This ‘ere’s Jerusalem’s dirty work. They mean to split us an turn us ‘gainst each other. D’vide an’ conq’er.”

“Chancellor, it makes it seem like you’re dodging the question. Did Roman forces commit war crimes in Operation Huma?”

“Let me ask ye tis: did other forces—Persian, Turkish, Indian, Afghan—commit the same crimes in the same operation?” Please don’t go down that route…

“We have no evidence establishing such crimes yet—”

“Stop yer havers, if ye’ve got enough tae accuse us Romans, there’s plenty tae accuse th’ rest o’ us. An’ ah ken th’ we’ve nae conducted ourselves in Mesopotamia as we should’ve. If ye really want accountability, ye should’ve looked at everyone. But it sounds tae me like ye want a scapegoat. Someone tae shift th’ blame onto, tae distract from yerselves.” Fair point, but the way you got there…

“That’s not what I was implying.”

“Tha’s ‘xactly wh’ yer implying.”

“This blatant disrespect for proper Majlis procedures cannot go unpunished.”

“A’m merely expressin’ meself the way ay normally dae. A’m merely defending meself and mae nation. Th’ Reich’s a shadow of it’s auld self. Just a dozen lads an’ lassies holed up in Ali Qapu. We just want tae go home.”

“Speaking of Ali Qapu, when can we expect the Roman government in exile to stop subsisting on taxpayer expenses? Currently, the budget allocates—”

“Ach, fer cry’ng oot laud! Dinnae ye listen tae wha’ ay’ve said? Let me make meself clear again…”

The argument went on for another half an hour. Julian patiently waited outside the door until the session ended and Izinchi stormed out, her face flush red with anger. “Sorry ‘boot that. Damn politicians, always th’ same.”

“You’re a politician too.”

“Ah ken that, aye. Always thought ay’d be different. Maybe a’m not. Ye must’ve heard everything ay said, right?”

“Caught part of it. Tuned out after a couple minutes.”

“A'm fair wabbit with these idiots.” Izinchi glared back into the Majlis chamber, where the Persian senators were filing out and returning to their offices. “They ken ‘boot wha’s happening wi’ Huma, and ye ken wh’ they dae? Blame us. Like we’ve a free ride tae commit atrocities on their dinars.”

“Let’s just go, Izinchi, before you give the tabloids more fuel.” Julian pushed Izinchi towards the entrance.

“Tabloids, tabloids, tabloids,” Izinchi said, “Never thought a’d miss dealing wi’ them. And now th’ ay’ve got to deal wi’ them, ay miss when ay didn’t.”

“You never know what you’ll miss until it’s gone.”

“Wha’s that, another o’ yer sis’ words?”

“No, that one’s mine. Look, I know your heart’s in the right place, but being that confrontational is only going to prove their point more.”

“Ye havering now or wha’?”

“It’s my observation. It’s fair to suspect certain members of the Majlis are trying to shift the blame for Huma’s conduct onto Gebhard’s troops—”

“Gebbers would never allow it.”

“Putting that aside for now, you made an error by trying to deflect and turn the question around. Blaming the other armies in Huma for the same thing. Sounds like whataboutism to me.” Specifically that used by the committee.

“Ah dinnae want tae deny any wrongdoing.”

“I get that, but the way you said it sounded like you were. It was as if you were doing the same thing, but to everyone else.”

Izinchi tried responding, but she couldn’t. “So wha’d ye want me t’dae?”

“Nothing right now, but when the topic comes up again…sound nicer?”

“Ye ken ‘boot my accent!”

Julian shook his head. “I’m not talking about your accent. I mean your words. You can keep defending our government against those who’d want to make us scapegoats. But as everyone says, we need accountability. Same goes for the other governments with troops in Huma. And you’re right. An investigation into every nation’s troops equally would go a long way to uncovering the truth, without hanging anyone out to dry.”

“Tha’ sounds fine. Ay can handle tha’.”

“People are scared, Izinchi,” Julian said, “Everything’s going crazy lately, even by this war’s standards. India’s a giant chemical wasteland, Pesah’s killed thousands in the Eimericas and is now spreading in Central Asia, our vaccine still isn’t fully ready yet, the Crusaders are making moves to invade Sweden, a dozen navies are about to duke it out in Hawaii, we’re risking almost everything we have on Operation Huma, and oh, our intel suggests Jerusalem may be about to make a move on Persia proper. It feels like we’re at our limit. If something doesn’t give in the next two months…”

“We’re frakked, ain’t we?”

Julian nodded. “It reminds me a lot of my last days in Bremerhaven. A feeling of impending doom looming over everything we did. Knowing that none of our efforts were going to matter.”

“But ye still fought, eh?”

“Eva refused to give up. Not even when it seemed all was lost. You know, there was this old reporter who was with us. Dr. Humboldt’s father. The man who exposed Sentinel all those years ago.”

“Ye knew Anders Humboldt?”

“Not much. But I do remember something he told Eva, shortly before his disappearance. As long as there’s at least one person standing against the committee, not cowed by its propaganda or threats, there will still be hope that we can win. That we can still emerge from this disastrous decade and build a better future. That the truth will ultimately come out, and evil will get its just due.”

Izinchi didn’t answer for several seconds, lost in thought. “Aye, ah dae wish tha’d happen. Really dae. But wha’ we’re seeing these last couple weeks…a’m nae confident.”

To be fair, I don’t feel confident either. There’s me, her, Gebhard, and Wilhelmina. It’s just us against the world. I know Gebhard has his Liberation Legion and Wilhelmina has Gunduz and those scientists, but…I don’t know. “I’m not either. Like I said earlier, we’re all scared.”

“Right ye are, Jules.”

Julian raised an eyebrow. “Jules?”

“Wha’, ye dinnae like it?”

What’s with this lady and nicknaming everyone around her? Granted, it’s just me and Gebhard so far since Wilhelmina already had her nickname, but still…. “It’s just…it’s just so sudden.”

Izinchi snickered. “Aye. So, wh’d ye think?”

“Might take some getting used to.”

“Well, better get used t’ it, Jules!”

Julian sighed. “Can we please get back to the palace and start talking policy? I’m honestly very scared.”

“Ye are?”

“I know, I know, I’m the Vice Chancellor, and I’m supposed to lead by example and project strength, but I’ll be damned if I’m not scared,” Julian said, “Wonder how Eva used to do it, standing up to the committee for years on end. I really need some of her courage.”

“We could’ve used som’ne like her, aye,” Izinchi said, “Could’ve used a lot of people. We need everyone.”

“So do you understand why I’m concerned about your words earlier?” Julian said. “We can’t afford to make a single mistake. It could cost us everything.”

“Aye, course.”

They left the Majlis Building and passed the statue of Furuzan the Architect. Julian’s eyes wandered up to the sky, which remained cloudy as usual. A light snow had started to fall. “I have a strange feeling.”

“What’s it?” Izinchi asked.

“I feel…” Julian stammered, trying to translate it into words. “That whatever happens in the weeks to come…will decide how this war ends.”

---

The references to Saltuk weren’t supposed to mention what he did in 1570 and directly tie in with Furuzan’s policies. I actually forgot about Saltuk other than him being there in the lead up to the Anarchy and a general feeling he was pretty bad, and it was just a coincidence that Furuzan was his daughter. But after rereading that chapter as a result of our previous conversation, I added it in, as it’s reasonable Furuzan would follow in her father’s footsteps.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

A bit of a weird comparison I know, but I can’t help but compare Furuzan to the New York urban designer Robert Moses, who was largely popular for his public work projects during his career but later became controversial for corruption and the discriminatory affects his urban plans had on African Americans and lower class families. Georges-Eugène Haussmann also works if we making comparisons between Furuzan and other controversial urban planners from OTL.

On that note, I wonder if Saltuk would be TTL Persia's closet equivalent to the Persian warlord Nader Shah, seeing how Nader tried to convert Persia from Shia Islam to Sunni Islam during his reign and was known for being a talented but ruthless military leader, kinda like how Saltuk and his daughter started persecuting Muslims during their reigns?

I agree with Julian and Izinchi idea of holding everyone involved in Operation Huma accountable, even if Izinchi didn't word it correctly. Still, I get people that are suspicious of the Reich considering the fact that not holding the Reich, with its immense intentional influence and socio-economic power projection, accountable for anything what got us into this mess with the Committee.

Regarding some of the discussions before this update, I wonder if you have ideas for explaining Twantinsuyu's origins or the Triple Alliance's conquest of Mesoamerica here Zen, considering that both Twantinsuyu and the Triple Alliance emerged in TTL much earlier than they did in OTL?

 

[zenphoenix]

A bit of a weird comparison I know, but I can’t help but compare Furuzan to the New York urban designer Robert Moses, who was largely popular for his public work projects during his career but later became controversial for corruption and the discriminatory affects his urban plans had on African Americans and lower class families. Georges-Eugène Haussmann also works if we making comparisons between Furuzan and other controversial urban planners from OTL.

That was unintentional, but definitely a great parallel.

On that note, I wonder if Saltuk would be TTL Persia's closet equivalent to the Persian warlord Nader Shah, seeing how Nader tried to convert Persia from Shia Islam to Sunni Islam during his reign and was known for being a talented but ruthless military leader, kinda like how Saltuk and his daughter started persecuting Muslims during their reigns?

He definitely comes across as equivalent to Nader Shah in his ruthlessness and cruelty. In a definitive edition, I might add some of Nader Shah's qualities to Saltuk when expanding on Persia's history in the EU4 era.

I agree with Julian and Izinchi idea of holding everyone involved in Operation Huma accountable, even if Izinchi didn't word it correctly. Still, I get people that are suspicious of the Reich considering the fact that not holding the Reich, with its immense intentional influence and socio-economic power projection, accountable for anything what got us into this mess with the Committee.

That is true, but there is a real chance that with the loyalist government in the state it is now, the pendulum could swing the other way, and overly harsh punishments could be enforced.

Regarding some of the discussions before this update, I wonder if you have ideas for explaining Twantinsuyu's origins or the Triple Alliance's conquest of Mesoamerica here Zen, considering that both Twantinsuyu and the Triple Alliance emerged in TTL much earlier than they did in OTL?

The Kingdom of Cusco that went on to create the Inca Empire was around by the end of the 12th century, so I could imagine that as the Triple Alliance expanded into South Eimerica in the 13th century, Cusco embarked on its own expansion to build an empire strong enough to stand up to the invaders. This might actually tie in with their alliance with the Jin, who would've arrived in the later half of the century. Using guns, horses, and Chinese military technology, they conquered their rivals and built what would become Tawantinsuyu roughly 150 years earlier than in OTL. So I guess instead of an existing Tawantinsuyu reforming its institutions along Chinese lines, Tawantinsuyu would have been created with Chinese influences from the start.

As for the Triple Alliance, that is way harder since the Aztec Empire only emerged in the 15th century and the Mexica themselves only arrived in the Basin of Mexico around 1250. In CK2, I established that captured Vinland settlers were taken all the way to Mexico and forced to teach the natives how to use their technology, then those natives used that technology to build the Triple Alliance. That's a bit of a simplification and stretch, even by my standards. So I'm going to try and work out a more reasonable timeline here. First, we have the Vinland settlement in the late 10th century and early 11th century. It gets destroyed, and those Vikings are captured by the natives. Over the next few years, those Vikings are traded between various tribes before escaping captivity and fleeing south after losing their way back to Vinland. They eventually end up in northern Mexico after who knows how long, ally with the tribes that would eventually become the Mexica, and establish the Acatl dynasty. The Acatls use the European technology and political institutions they brought with them to mold the early Mexica into their own kingdom and then into an empire. I might retcon away the name Triple Alliance because the OTL alliance was formed in a later era for completely different reasons which wouldn’t apply here. The empire of the Mexica that the Acatls founded wouldn’t be exactly like the Aztec Empire. I don’t have all of the details yet. I probably will do it in a definitive edition or a 2090s infographic.

Also the Worm was involved because I already set a precedent for the Worm cult being involved in the formation and rise of the Acatls and it’s really the only way I can justify the Mexica developing a centralized militaristic empire that controls half of North Eimerica and has ships capable of crossing the Atlantic by the 13th century.

 

[GhostRider124]

Thanks for answering the questions I had on the different Chinese languages as well as Quechua. The reason I asked was because this is one of the few alternate histories that I sometimes try and picture what I would be doing. My guess since I have German and some Native American (maybe some Slovak, Polish and Hungarian) my family would have migrated to the new world but this time to Neurhomaina. From there I could have done what Juliana did in MITHC and go to the local Tawantinsuyu embassy and live there under asylum. After the war starts I could join a noncombat role of what ever Tawantinsuyu or the Eimerican Federations version of the Liberation Legion.

Persia’s small colonial empire

Yea I was going to say didn't Persia's colonial empire only consist of a few islands at best?

the Anarchy.

Just to be clear is the Anarchy the retconed name for the Roman Civil War?

attempting to reinterpret Zoroastrianism through a monotheistic lens

I thought Zoroastrianism was already a monotheistic religion?

some embraced more radical goals and joined ideologues like Iskandar Yinal.

I'm sorry but who was Iskandar Yinal? I looked him up on Google and did not find anything.

That is true, but there is a real chance that with the loyalist government in the state it is now, the pendulum could swing the other way, and overly harsh punishments could be enforced.

I feel like the Majlis are just looking for any Roman government to blame and sadly the loyalist one is the only one available.

I might retcon away the name Triple Alliance because the OTL alliance was formed in a later era for completely different reasons which wouldn’t apply here. The empire of the Mexica that the Acatls founded wouldn’t be exactly like the Aztec Empire.

That makes sense since the Aztecs did not form until 1428. Mabey this alternate Mexica Empire could be based on the Purépecha an empire that was enemies of the Aztecs and (as far as I know) one of the few if only civilizations in Mesoamerica that developed similarly to the European kingdoms? They also started their rise in 1300 so you have that to work with. On second thought that is still after the Sunset Invasion so maybe the Olmecs would be better?

All in all I like that we got a update on Julian and Izinchi since I feel that out of all of your characters they both get the least "screen time"? so it is great you showed them some love even though it is really hard to understand Izinchi sometimes due to her accent.

 

[TheAnguishedOne]

Publicly heated arguments, always a good sign that things are going nice and smooth.

 

[zenphoenix]

Thanks for answering the questions I had on the different Chinese languages as well as Quechua. The reason I asked was because this is one of the few alternate histories that I sometimes try and picture what I would be doing. My guess since I have German and some Native American (maybe some Slovak, Polish and Hungarian) my family would have migrated to the new world but this time to Neurhomaina. From there I could have done what Juliana did in MITHC and go to the local Tawantinsuyu embassy and live there under asylum. After the war starts I could join a noncombat role of what ever Tawantinsuyu or the Eimerican Federations version of the Liberation Legion.

Good idea. Tawantinsuyu is a safe bet for loyalist Neurhomanians who wanted to flee the chaos in the province, but a few, mainly those with money and connections, would've gone to Mayapan instead.

Yea I was going to say didn't Persia's colonial empire only consist of a few islands at best?

Yes, Persia had colonized some Indonesian and Pacific islands in EU4. It was nothing compared to the Roman, Indian, Ming, and Tran colonial empires, but they were in the game, at least until they got landlocked by the Reich and no longer had a way to reach and protect them, so they got gobbled up by the others. In one of my NWO sessions around this point, I actually found a couple Pacific islands that were still owned by Persia. I used the console to switch them to some other country, don't know which one, probably either India or China. Consider those remaining colonies non-canon since they would have been long gone by the 21st century.

Just to be clear is the Anarchy the retconed name for the Roman Civil War?

The Anarchy was the period in the 1590s when Malcolm Bethune overthrew the Hohenzollerns and we entered that weird Macbeth parody arc. It ended when Sophia killed him and took the throne. The Roman Civil War was originally my name for the Maximist rebellion in the 1850s, but I realized it made no sense to call it a "Roman Civil War" a la the American Civil War when the Reich already went through multiple civil wars even in the post-Restoration era, including the Anarchy and even the Maximist rebellion which brought them to power that caused the "actual" civil war. In my table of contents, I finally and officially renamed it to "The Maximist Wars" a few days ago. The Angeloi rebellion that I called the Second Roman Civil War (a nod to KR's Second American Civil War, wow how original the me of 5-6 years ago was) was also renamed to "The Rebellion of the Angeloi."

I thought Zoroastrianism was already a monotheistic religion?

I always thought of Zoroastrian as a dualistic religion, but it turns out scholars have been debating over whether to label it monotheistic, dualistic, or polytheistic for a long time. There is apparently a supreme deity, Ahura Mazda. There is also Angra Mainyu, the destructive spirit or mentality that opposes Ahura Mazda but is not equal to it. And then there is the dualism central to Zoroastrianism, in that all humans have the free will to choose between good and evil. It's not quite monotheistic like the later Abrahamic religions, but it's not quite polytheistic like other ancient religions.

I'm sorry but who was Iskandar Yinal? I looked him up on Google and did not find anything.

He was an unscripted Persian revolutionary general who popped up in EU4 and almost overthrew the Persian monarchy. I reference him a lot as influencing Persia's political evolution throughout the 19th century.

I feel like the Majlis are just looking for any Roman government to blame and sadly the loyalist one is the only one available.

Since the government in exile holds no real power and is merely a guest of the Persian government, it becomes an easy target and scapegoat.

That makes sense since the Aztecs did not form until 1428. Mabey this alternate Mexica Empire could be based on the Purépecha an empire that was enemies of the Aztecs and (as far as I know) one of the few if only civilizations in Mesoamerica that developed similarly to the European kingdoms? They also started their rise in 1300 so you have that to work with. On second thought that is still after the Sunset Invasion so maybe the Olmecs would be better?

The Purépecha still existed as a separate political entity as evident from their appearance in Victoria 2. I can retcon a lot about the Mexica, but them needing to be Nahuatl-speaking, of the Mexica cultural group, and having Aztec-like political and religious institutions is central to everything about them. Basically, they have to remain Mexica, or else I'd be tearing apart one of the most central foundations of this whole story. The Olmec civilization declined by 400 BCE so definitely not them. Their culture did influence a lot of later ones which tried to emulate them, though.

Okay, let me try working this out in more detail than my last post.

1. End of the 10th century: the Vinland settlers are captured and enslaved by local natives, and their settlement is destroyed. I most certainly have to retcon the leader away from Erik the Red or whoever I picked Erik the Red never actually went to Vinland, and it was his son Leif Erikson who did, but he came back alive. I might come up with an original character. They'll still have the grudge against mainland Scandinavians that evolved into the Acatls' hatred and Worm-fueled desire for revenge. Why did this happen when the "official" point of divergence from OTL (ignoring the 8th century. POD from the Annionaverse) was 1066? I don't know, Worm shenanigans, whatever.

2. Early 11th century: The settlers are passed through various trade networks across North Eimerica over the years, generally kept in the same group but with a handful being left behind occasionally (which feeds into the later empire's desire to expand north). Eventually, they escape. Where and when they do doesn't matter, only that they did. They head south because they don't know the way back to Vinland...also maybe the Worm is guiding them with visions at this point, much like the Mexica prophecies about the eagle eating a snake on a cactus being where to build Tenochtitlan. Maybe it is the same prophecy.

3. About 5-10 years later: They reach northern Mexico (by the standards of OTL borders). There they meet the ancestors of the Mexica who had yet to migrate south into the Valley of Mexico. As they find they have the same prophecy about the eagle and cactus and whatever (and the Worm cult in the region sees them as touched by the Worm or whatever), they join forces.

4. Roughly 1020 or so I guess: The settlers teach the Mexica all they know about their technology, especially with regards to shipbuilding, ironsmithing, and making European-style weapons. This goes really well with the Mexica, who embrace the militarism of the OTL Aztec Empire centuries earlier. The cult of Huitzilopochtli also rises to prominence earlier in the emerging imperial state. The settler leader embraces Mexica culture, founding the Acatl dynasty.

5. About 1066 if we want to parallel what happens in Europe: In the early to mid 11th century, the emerging Mexica polity, armed with their advanced technology (and probably Worm shenanigans), destroy the declining Toltec Empire and inherit its political institutions and infrastructure, while also incorporating a lot of its culture into their own, as the OTL Aztecs saw themselves as the cultural and political successors of the Toltecs. Seeing the sign of the eagle and cactus a little bit to the south of the Toltec political center of Tula (Tula is about 60 miles north of Mexico City), they build Tenochtitlan on Lake Texcoco as a new center of Mesoamerican civilization. It's founded much earlier than in real life (OTL: ~1325), probably by the early 12th century at the latest.

6. Remainder of the 11th century: The settlers have long since fully integrated into the local culture, founding many of the later empire's most powerful noble families. The cult of Huitzilopochtli becomes a front for the Worm cult, which uses it to exert influence over both the imperial court and the general public. Tenochtitlan quickly grows in size as other Nahuatl-speaking tribes flock to the area to gain favor with the rising Mexica empire. There are others, like the Purépecha, Zapotecs, and Tlaxcalans, who oppose the Mexica and become its main rivals during this early period. Some other native peoples like the Mixtec were split between joining the Mexica or resisting.

7. By the mid-12th century: The Purépecha, Zapotecs, Tlaxcalans, and Mixtec have been integrated into the Mexica empire, which has taken over much of the core of OTL Mexico via vassalization or outright conquest. The Mexica next turn to the Yucatan, seeking to conquer the Mayans. In OTL, at this point the Mayans would have been loosely united in the League of Mayapan, since the late 10th and early 11th century in response to what was probably a Toltec invasion, but here the unity of the league is strengthened by the Mexica threat. Regardless, the Mexica conquer the Yucatan and lead many Mayans to flee to the Caribbean islands, where they split into multiple kingdoms based on the various islands. The League becomes a formality as communication between the islands is sparse.

8. Late 12th century: The Mexica continue their expansion in a dark parody of the Reich's expansion, in that they mainly conquer and subjugate new peoples and cultures, then conscript them into their armies to conquer new territories. This allows them to get rid of potential recruits for rebellions and get manpower for more military campaigns across the New World. By the late 12th century, the Mexica have taken all of OTL Mexico and are now expanding into Texas and Central America. The decentralized tribes of Texas and the Great Plains prove no match for the Mexica, but the Muisca of Central America and northern South America resist fiercely, forming a confederation the later UPM would draw inspiration from. It is eventually vassalized, like many other major enemy polities (since they are still only vassals of the Mexica when I first come across them in EU4 in the late 15th and early 16th century). The Muisca's distance from Tenochtitlan makes it hard to establish full control over the area, slowing the empire's southern expansion. But the rainforests of Central America and northern South America provide an opportunity for the empire to begin building a navy with which to invade the Caribbean islands.

9. Also late 12th century: The Mexica expand across the Great Plains, and most of the tribes there submit themselves to imperial rule. These include the Táyshá, Choctaw, and others around the Deep South region. Those further north, like the natives of Cahokia, band together in regional federations to fight back, forming the predecessors of later centralized native polities that we see in EU4. Cahokia is sacked by the Mexica, though. It probably bounces back. The Triple Alliance attempts to invade the Caribbean islands with its new navy, but the Mayans of the western islands have built up their own navies too in anticipation of this, so neither side makes much progress. The Mayan merchant class gains prominence due to facilitating trade and commerce between the islands and being one of the few ways the islands can communicate with each other.

10. By 1200: The Mexica have reached the Eastern Seaboard of North America (around Georgia/South Carolina). The Worm cult now puts its plan into motion and encourages the Acatls to build drydocks and harbors on the coast there with which to build a massive fleet that could cross the Atlantic. Preparations for Sunset Invasion begin and take 30 years.

11. In the 1230s, Ocuil Acatl, an imperial prince far down the line of succession, is chosen to lead the invasion fleet. He lands in the Hebrides in 1236, and the invasion fleet follows shortly afterwards. The Mexica begin their conquests in Europe, but we know how that goes, so let's look at what happens in the New World while that's ongoing.

12. 1250s or so: The Mexica begin diverting thousands of troops to the European campaign, slowing their expansion in North America. Military campaigns in South America, however, resume as the shipyards need better quality wood for their ships (which is ironic because the Mexica stopped short of reaching the OTL American Northeast, which was a major source of wood for ships in real life).

13. Late 13th century: The Kingdom of Cusco learns of the Mexica expansion into South America through the Muisca and other native polities in the area. The kingdom begins centralizing and building up a stronger military in preparation for the coming threat. The League of Mayapan is reinstated in full, officially as an elective monarchy where leadership cycles between the monarchies of the various islands. In reality, the merchants significantly influence who becomes the monarch. (Retconning out the Mayapan merchant republic from EU4, to an extent.)

14. Also the late 13th century: The Jin arrive in California. The Zhumasi court of southern California allies itself with the Navajo and other native groups of the Desert Southwest and learn of the Mexica, which have been trying for decades to conquer the desert and bring the tribes there under its control. Seeing a threat to its existence, the Zhumasi court responds by arming the Navajo with guns and horses in exchange for service to the emperor and land in California. Suddenly, the Mexica are put on the defensive. The Mexica armies in North America are not used to fighting both an army on horseback and an Old World-style standing army armed with guns. The Navajo become a major horse-based power akin to the Comanche, but they remain loyal to the Zhumasi court.

15. Late 13th-early 14th century: Buddhism, smallpox, and horses spread throughout the New World. The Kingdom of Cusco makes contact with the Zhumasi court by sea and forms an alliance against the Mexica. In exchange for horses and guns, the kingdom reforms itself along Chinese political lines, adopting many aspects of Chinese culture. The empire of Tawantinsuyu is declared. Using its new technology, it embarks on its own imperial expansion against enemy neighbors before entering into direct hostilities with the Mexica. In North America, smallpox devastates many Mexica settlements, but it isn't the genocidal annihilator that pop culture would have you believe, and the empire soon rebounds from it. However, this weakens its military presence north of Texas even more, allowing for the native federations to regain lost territory. The Zhumasi court and Navajo open up a new front in the empire's northwest. Buddhism spreads among many native communities seeking an alternative to the Mexica's state-sponsored cult of Huitzilopochtli (especially the human sacrifice). The Mexica finally integrate horses into their armies.

16. Mid-late 14th century: The Triple Alliance begins contracting as it loses territory in the Great Plains and the Northeast to the native federations. The war with Tawantinsuyu enters a stalemate. The imperial state begins reassessing its policy of brutality and conscription of conquered populations.

17. Early 15th century: The Jinshan court embarks on a military campaign to defeat the other two Jin courts. The Zhumasi court's demise leads to decades of Navajo resistance against Jinshan rule, which allows the Mexica to establish footholds in Baja California and what would be Arizona. Over the next few centuries, the front lines in the region would constantly change (frequently reaching as far as Jinshan itself). The Jinshan court maintains the alliance with Tawantinsuyu, though. Meanwhile, Tawantinsuyu continues expanding across South America to get the resources and manpower it needs to maintain the war effort.

18. Mid 15th century: The last Mexica domains in Europe are overrun, and the direct descendants of Ocuil Acatl return home. They promptly overthrow the main line of Acatls and implement sweeping political and religious reforms that allow the empire to hold on to what it currently has and survive a bit longer (hence the 1444 borders). I'm going to stop there.

...I think I went overboard. Feel free to point out any inconsistencies or stuff I missed/should know, because this was all done on the spur of the moment with barely any edits.

You know, after writing all this, I'm really tempted to just call it the Mexica Empire or however you can write it in Nahuatl.

All in all I like that we got a update on Julian and Izinchi since I feel that out of all of your characters they both get the least "screen time"? so it is great you showed them some love even though it is really hard to understand Izinchi sometimes due to her accent.

Technically Friedrich and Ilyana have even less screen time than those two, since Julian had the Bremerhaven arc and Izinchi was referenced during the old regime before the massacre. There's not much I can do with two 6-year-old children, other than what I've already written, to match two adult characters. I'm already having trouble writing dialogue you'd expect 6-year-olds to say. Ilyana sounds twice her age. Though I did point that out and somewhat justify it in-universe.

Publicly heated arguments, always a good sign that things are going nice and smooth.

When people can afford to argue instead of shooting each other, that's a great sign.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Neat breakdown for the Eimericas in the CK2 era. I do have some questions like how the Pueblo ended up in the Mid-west and seemingly adopted Meskwaki political/cultural influences as well as Chinese ones (this one makes sense given what we've discussed lately) in this mega-campaign, but other than that not many at the moment.

Why did this happen when the "official" point of divergence from OTL (ignoring the 8th century. POD from the Annionaverse) was 1066? I don't know, Worm shenanigans, whatever.

This just makes me wonder whether or not the Anniona's rise to power was due to Worm shenanigans in the first place, if we want to parallel Wihelm's role in the early Reich like how the Mexica's early history parallels that of the Reich?

Speaking of the Annionaverse, do you have any ideas for the Xeno cults in Stellaris, since @dragoon9105 made it sound like they'd be quite the annoyance to the HTE? Maybe they could be a wild card faction that is hostile to both the Annionas and Hohenzollerns and even sees the mainstream Worm Cult in the HTE as heretical.

Also, considering how we were discussing Human mechs in both universes and Ancient Humanity last page, I was wondering you have any ideas for mechs that Alien civilizations, like the Jotun, could have or that one mech that showed up near the end of CK2?

 

[zenphoenix]

Neat breakdown for the Eimericas in the CK2 era. I do have some questions like how the Pueblo ended up in the Mid-west and seemingly adopted Meskwaki political/cultural influences as well as Chinese ones (this one makes sense given what we've discussed lately) in this mega-campaign, but other than that not many at the moment.

The Navajo were historical enemies of the Pueblo. The word "Anasazi," once used to describe the historical Pueblo, means "ancient enemy" in Navajo, and modern Puebloans do not like that name. So the Navajo likely used their Chinese weapons to expand into the traditional Pueblo homelands, forcing them to flee the area for the northeast. They were driven even further north by Mexica expansion, which is why they ended up in Nebraska/South Dakota. They probably aligned with the Jinshan court, which they saw as the rival of the Zhumasi court and the Navajo, so they had heavy Jinshan influences. The Meskwaki stuff came when the Pueblo were integrated into the emerging Meskwaki Empire in 1782. Then came the Meskwaki Free State which was the Chinese client state propped up from World War I up until the Eimerican Federation, so I imagine Meskwaki and Chinese influences ultimately overtook local Pueblo culture. It's probably still there but marginalized by wave after wave of native refugees, particularly Meskwaki, fleeing the collapse of the Meskwaki Empire, the formation of the Eimerican Commune, and then the collapse of said Commune. Not to mention the Meskwaki monarchy itself fled there. The remaining Puebloans must have it rough there.

Looking at that 1444 map, I noticed the Jin borders were much different from what I initially assumed. The Zhumasi court effectively lies within Navajo territory. Perhaps in the same way the Hongzhou court embraced the local natives, the Zhumasi court's reliance on the Navajo became so heavy that the Navajo effectively ran most things within the southern court's domains. They still remained loyal to Zhumasi and didn't seek to control the court themselves, so the southern emperors weren't exactly puppets. They were just extremely dependent. I can probably use the in-game integration of the Navajo tag into the Jin tag to represent the process by which the Jinshan court absorbed the Zhumasi court. That would mean that by 1444, the Hongzhou court had already been taken over by the Jinshan court, but the Navajo and Zhumasi held out for far longer.

This just makes me wonder whether or not the Anniona's rise to power was due to Worm shenanigans in the first place, if we want to parallel Wihelm's role in the early Reich like how the Mexica's early history parallels that of the Reich?

Perhaps not the whole way, but as their empire evolved and industrialized, the Worm cult would emerge from the shadows, ultimately engineering the nuclear war that would allow them to rebuild society on Mars in their own image. Perhaps at the beginning the cult set things into motion, if we want to have a parallel to Friedrich the Great, but for the next few centuries they would have been mostly hands-off.

Speaking of the Annionaverse, do you have any ideas for the Xeno cults in Stellaris, since @dragoon9105 made it sound like they'd be quite the annoyance to the HTE? Maybe they could be a wild card faction that is hostile to both the Annionas and Hohenzollerns and even sees the mainstream Worm Cult in the HTE as heretical.

Not yet. I haven't thought of that many lower level ideas for Stellaris yet. Even if I did, I'd probably forget most of them by the time I even get there.

Also, considering how we were discussing Human mechs in both universes and Ancient Humanity last page, I was wondering you have any ideas for mechs that Alien civilizations, like the Jotun, could have or that one mech that showed up near the end of CK2?

Not sure about alien mechs, but I might think about them once I have an idea about the alien civilizations I want to script. As for the mech at the end of CK2...well, I can't say anything about it right now.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

The Navajo were historical enemies of the Pueblo. The word "Anasazi," once used to describe the historical Pueblo, means "ancient enemy" in Navajo, and modern Puebloans do not like that name. So the Navajo likely used their Chinese weapons to expand into the traditional Pueblo homelands, forcing them to flee the area for the northeast. They were driven even further north by Mexica expansion, which is why they ended up in Nebraska/South Dakota. They probably aligned with the Jinshan court, which they saw as the rival of the Zhumasi court and the Navajo, so they had heavy Jinshan influences. The Meskwaki stuff came when the Pueblo were integrated into the emerging Meskwaki Empire in 1782. Then came the Meskwaki Free State which was the Chinese client state propped up from World War I up until the Eimerican Federation, so I imagine Meskwaki and Chinese influences ultimately overtook local Pueblo culture. It's probably still there but marginalized by wave after wave of native refugees, particularly Meskwaki, fleeing the collapse of the Meskwaki Empire, the formation of the Eimerican Commune, and then the collapse of said Commune. Not to mention the Meskwaki monarchy itself fled there. The remaining Puebloans must have it rough there.

Looking at that 1444 map, I noticed the Jin borders were much different from what I initially assumed. The Zhumasi court effectively lies within Navajo territory. Perhaps in the same way the Hongzhou court embraced the local natives, the Zhumasi court's reliance on the Navajo became so heavy that the Navajo effectively ran most things within the southern court's domains. They still remained loyal to Zhumasi and didn't seek to control the court themselves, so the southern emperors weren't exactly puppets. They were just extremely dependent. I can probably use the in-game integration of the Navajo tag into the Jin tag to represent the process by which the Jinshan court absorbed the Zhumasi court. That would mean that by 1444, the Hongzhou court had already been taken over by the Jinshan court, but the Navajo and Zhumasi held out for far longer.

This makes sense. I’m curious about if there were native Eimerican cultures in the southwest that adopted Mexica culture as well as Chinese, as there was a substantial Nahua community near Zhumasi that contributed to the Nahua Spring and some native groups, like the Hohokam, did have a lot of Mesoamerican cultural influences due to trade (particularly with western Mexico, where the Purepecha are based in, ironically enough) in OTL.

Also, I’m not sure this is intentional, but the Lenape give me Singapore vibes but without the authoritarianism.

 

[zenphoenix]

his makes sense. I’m curious about if there were native Eimerican cultures in the southwest that adopted Mexica culture as well as Chinese, as there was a substantial Nahua community near Zhumasi that contributed to the Nahua Spring and some native groups, like the Hohokam, did have a lot of Mesoamerican cultural influences due to trade (particularly with western Mexico, where the Purepecha are based in, ironically enough) in OTL.

Most certainly there were a lot of southern natives who adopted Nahua/Mexica culture. In 1444, a large part of the American Southwest and Deep South had Nahua culture, which is why in the present day the Táyshá have heavy Nahua influences, there was such a thing as the Southern Altepetls (relative to the Meskwaki Empire), and the Nahua Spring started outside of the Mexica heartlands. The Mexica also conquered land as far north as the Jinshan province at various points in EU4, which meant all of the Navajo/Zhumasi court lands would have been under Mexica control sometimes. The Navajo and southern California natives could have incorporated some Nahua influences. When the Jin took back those lands, a lot of Nahua settlers remained where they were and assimilated into Jin culture, leaving a substantial Nahua minority in southern Fusang. That could explain why the Sonora/Baja California region was so fiercely contested by both the Jin and Mexica, due to having settler populations from both sides as a result of multiple wars and state-sponsored settlement efforts.

Looking into the Hohokam and other native cultures in the area, I found there were also some OTL religious concepts among the natives of the Southwest and Texas that are remarkably similar to Aztec ones, particularly worship of a feathered serpent. The Mexica could have easily taken these local beliefs and incorporated them into the state-sponsored religion, which would encourage assimilation into mainstream Nahua society. Hence why the in-game Nahua culture became so deeply rooted in what would be Texas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana.

Looking at the 1444 scenario again from the old screenshots, the Purépecha and a couple other major native groups, like one Mayan polity, seem to have remained independent from the Mexica empire at least for another few decades. The Muisca I've already explained, and if I remember correctly those other ones were also vassals, but I could easily explain it as the Purépecha and the others successfully resisting Mexica imperial expansion for centuries before finally succumbing after 1444. It would explain why the Purépecha continued resisting even centuries after their conquest, how they got an independent state in the 20th century, and why there was still an insurgency there into the 21st century.

Also, I’m not sure this is intentional, but the Lenape give me Singapore vibes but without the authoritarianism.

I could see that. I wasn't drawing on any real world parallels, as I noticed the Lenape had triggered a lot of high profile events and decisions relating to banking and finance and decided to run with it. But it would make sense to draw a non-authoritarian Singapore parallel.

 

[GhostRider124]

Thank you for the more detailed update on the Mexica. The conversations about other Native Eimerica tribes are interesting as well. I think the fleshed out CK2 parts of the story that deal with North and South Eimerica will be really interesting to me. Especially how they interact with each other.

Staying on that idea about Native Eimericans I was wondering how the Iroquois are doing? Another question regarding them that I have is was their Confederacy an inspiration for the Meskwaki dream of a Eimerican Confederation and the later Federation of the Eimerica's?

 

[zenphoenix]

Thank you for the more detailed update on the Mexica. The conversations about other Native Eimerica tribes are interesting as well. I think the fleshed out CK2 parts of the story that deal with North and South Eimerica will be really interesting to me. Especially how they interact with each other.

More historically reasonable lore for the New World is sorely needed for both CK2 and EU4. At least lore that isn't 80% lifted from Wikipedia. There's so much potential for worldbuilding there.

I don't think I mentioned it earlier, but I had an idea that after forming an alliance with the Jinshan court, the Puebloans were contracted as architects for the empire's towns and palaces in exchange for new land in the north (Nebraska/South Dakota area), which would be cleared of any native rivals with Chinese military support. They'd also help build fortifications and walls, although nothing on the level of the Great Wall. I don't know how to accurately describe it, but the Jin didn't exactly need a Great Wall, both culturally and politically.

Staying on that idea about Native Eimericans I was wondering how the Iroquois are doing? Another question regarding them that I have is was their Confederacy an inspiration for the Meskwaki dream of a Eimerican Confederation and the later Federation of the Eimerica's?

The Iroquois had one of the most powerful native confederations (the "Iroquois" in OTL already referred to a confederation of smaller tribes, although here it would have been formed centuries earlier) and led the resistance against Mexica imperial expansion, which was why they didn't reach the American Northeast. Their political system was an inspiration to many other natives across North Eimerica, who organized themselves into their own confederations which became the precursors to the EU4 tags we see in-game. Not all adopted every political idea the Iroquois confederacy had, like consensus government and an orally transmitted constitution (which in OTL the Iroquois claim to have created as early as the 12th century). Some used the new centralization to prop themselves up in the style of the Mexica emperors, creating centralized monarchies, while others like the Cherokee centralized power on priesthoods, leading to the Cherokee theocracy. Those in the west would have adopted a Chinese system, those in the south would have something like the Mexica system, and those in the east would more closely follow the Iroquois system. The Meskwaki Empire would have attempted to suppress the Iroquois confederation system as a rival to their own system of absolute monarchy (which drew from Chinese, Mexica, Scandinavian, and Roman influences), but it would have survived on the local level and evolved into the communes that would join forces in the equalist Union of Seven (later Thirteen) Republics. The Eimerican Federation would have taken heavy inspiration from the Iroquois system to build its own supernational institutions. Many federalists viewed the Federation as being a scaled up version of the original confederacy, which was an alliance of native factions in service of a common goal.

I remember that after World War III, Kanata annexed the lands that the Iroquois used to have in EU4. They likely still had that land as of World War III, but I set up native revival movements in Fusang and Kanata in the 2020s and 2030s (I mentioned many native groups in Fusang getting recognition and renames of some places to their native names), and depending on how this war goes I could see the Iroquois regaining independence. I admit one of the reasons I gave them to Kanata was because I didn't want to remember how to spell "Rhotinonsionni." That's the Mohawk name for the Iroquois, and it's historically accurate, but it's so hard to remember and spell, at least for me. If I mention them again in the future or a definitive edition, I might retcon it to "Haudenosaunee," which is also historically acceptable.

 

[GhostRider124]

Many federalists viewed the Federation as being a scaled up version of the original confederacy, which was an alliance of native factions in service of a common goal.

I can see that. The more I think about it the more I can see the inspiration from The Years of Rice and Salt with Rome and Schengen being a combination of both Dar al-Islam and the Travancori League, Tianxia being the Sinosphere and the Federation being the Hodenosaunee League. Granted this was all before the Committee of course.

 

[zenphoenix]

I can see that. The more I think about it the more I can see the inspiration from The Years of Rice and Salt with Rome and Schengen being a combination of both Dar al-Islam and the Travancori League, Tianxia being the Sinosphere and the Federation being the Hodenosaunee League. Granted this was all before the Committee of course.

Oh yeah, I intentionally avoided the name Haudenosaunee all the way back in EU4 because I didn't want to come across as ripping off the Haudenosaunee League from The Years of Rice and Salt. then 2016 me proceeds to rip off 75% of Kaiserreich lore at the time

And I'd say India is the Travancori League, while the Reich, Persia, and the rest of Schengen is Dar al-Islam to an extent.

 

[TWR97]

Julian definitely is a nice contrast as a politician compared to Izinchi, not just age wise, experience wise too. Both of them would benefit from each other's advice. Also I quite like the small worldbuilding you've been doing in this update as well as the discussions, worldbuilding is something I'm fond of brainstorming too and these kind of updates help make a fictional world feel real. Despite all the cosmic entity shenanigans and whatnot of course. Probably why alternate-history will always be a favorite genre of mine. Looking forward to more of this in the future Zen, and as well as the 1066 rewrite when we eventually get there, that period in this megacampaign definitely has a lot to lore to be expanded upon once we're done with this arc.

Also, this new lore for the Mayapan league goes well with what my plans for Bravos are in ASOFAF, it's pretty much going to be a formidable sea power that has resisted various attempts by other Essosi merchant cities to bring the Titan down, and whose elected sealord serves for life, and almost akin to a monarch, with the merchants being ones to influence the next Sealord in line once the incumbment dies, my working arc for Arya Stark when she's in Bravos is that she's spying the merchant faction in the upcoming election after the previous Sealord dies in the third book (Of natural causes, a rare feat in Planetos), and whether they should heed the warnings of the coming Long Night instead of focusing on the other Free Cities.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Also, this new lore for the Mayapan league goes well with what my plans for Bravos are in ASOFAF, it's pretty much going to be a formidable sea power that has resisted various attempts by other Essosi merchant cities to bring the Titan down, and whose elected sealord serves for life, and almost akin to a monarch, with the merchants being ones to influence the next Sealord in line once the incumbment dies, my working arc for Arya Stark when she's in Bravos is that she's spying the merchant faction in the upcoming election after the previous Sealord dies in the third book (Of natural causes, a rare feat in Planetos), and whether they should heed the warnings of the coming Long Night instead of focusing on the other Free Cities

That’s neat. This also reminded me of something I’ve been wondering about, especially with House of the Dragon currently nearing its first season finale. I was wondering, if you’re planning on doing lore updates for other Planetos eras before the books like you did with the Long Night, then what would your plans for events like the Dance of the Dragons and other Fire & Blood content be? From what I can tell, the Dance was based on the English Anarchy during the 12th century, and the Roman Anarchy of the 1590s isn’t exactly the same. Come to think of it, it’s a bit ironic how I’m talking about Targaryen lore now considering that Braavos was founded by former slaves of Valyria that managed to escape it.

 

[zenphoenix]

Julian definitely is a nice contrast as a politician compared to Izinchi, not just age wise, experience wise too. Both of them would benefit from each other's advice. Also I quite like the small worldbuilding you've been doing in this update as well as the discussions, worldbuilding is something I'm fond of brainstorming too and these kind of updates help make a fictional world feel real. Despite all the cosmic entity shenanigans and whatnot of course. Probably why alternate-history will always be a favorite genre of mine. Looking forward to more of this in the future Zen, and as well as the 1066 rewrite when we eventually get there, that period in this megacampaign definitely has a lot to lore to be expanded upon once we're done with this arc.

That's my goal, trying to make this world feel alive instead of just events on a timeline. This particular worldbuilding tidbit was introduced as a result of our conversation about Persia's Zoroastrian resurgence from a little bit ago, and I wanted to get the details into the canon before the 11th century rework since it'll take a while to get there at the current rate. It also unintentionally added extra depth to Saltuk, who before came across as a random Persian prince I fixated on during the lead up to the Anarchy. Now there's a reason for why he did what he did and a legacy he left behind for Persia, even if he reigned for only a few years. I love worldbuilding since I can do all this, and the research that goes into making alternate history helps me understand real history as well. I didn't know the political symbolism of that square in Isfahan until I looked it up to see how I could have it be different here. Plus it also teaches me a lot about the histories of places, peoples, and cultures I'm not as familiar with. All that discussion about Persia's Zoroastrianization and my research on the square taught me much about what 11th century and 16th century Persia were like, the status and treatment of Zoroastrianism under various Islamic rulers, and the rise and fall of the Seljuks and Safavids.

Personally, from how much we've been discussing the 11th century rework, despite how much research I've been amassing on it (approaching the complexity and depth I did for the early Forum arc), I'm scared it won't live up to everyone's expectations. There's so many interwoven story arcs, character progressions, and major historical events I have to balance, from Friedrich the Great's story to Byzantine court politics to the Holy Roman Emperor's struggle with the Pope to Robert Guiscard to the Pagan Resurgence. Oh and the Worm's still there.

Also, this new lore for the Mayapan league goes well with what my plans for Bravos are in ASOFAF, it's pretty much going to be a formidable sea power that has resisted various attempts by other Essosi merchant cities to bring the Titan down, and whose elected sealord serves for life, and almost akin to a monarch, with the merchants being ones to influence the next Sealord in line once the incumbment dies, my working arc for Arya Stark when she's in Bravos is that she's spying the merchant faction in the upcoming election after the previous Sealord dies in the third book (Of natural causes, a rare feat in Planetos), and whether they should heed the warnings of the coming Long Night instead of focusing on the other Free Cities.

Cool. So will it have a major maritime rival akin to the Mayans having to fight off the Mexica in the Caribbean?

That’s neat. This also reminded me of something I’ve been wondering about, especially with House of the Dragon currently nearing its first season finale. I was wondering, if you’re planning on doing lore updates for other Planetos eras before the books like you did with the Long Night, then what would your plans for events like the Dance of the Dragons and other Fire & Blood content be? From what I can tell, the Dance was based on the English Anarchy during the 12th century, and the Roman Anarchy of the 1590s isn’t exactly the same. Come to think of it, it’s a bit ironic how I’m talking about Targaryen lore now considering that Braavos was founded by former slaves of Valyria that managed to escape it.

Haven't seen HOTD, but it does seem pretty appealing, and I was always interested in Targaryen lore. I did read through a third of Fire and Blood a while ago (haven't finished it yet), and the worldbuilding in it seems right up our alley. I'd be onboard with lore pieces on the supplementary material.

I actually was aware that the Roman Anarchy wasn't the same as the English Anarchy when I came up with the name, but a name as simple yet destructive as "Anarchy" sounded too cool to pass up on despite not matching the OTL event. Maybe that's for the best, as I shouldn't be shackled to paralleling OTL events. As an aside, in the definitive edition I might fudge some dates for historical events (nothing too far forward or back though) or slightly alter some of their details so they won't directly parallel OTL while preserving their core. Most egregious would be WWI's start and end dates. And no, I'm not going to rely on convergence theory as an excuse.