The Hive Mind Government

[The_Meme_Man]

Now, I do apologize if there is already a thread about this, but I have searched and looked around the forums and haven't found much dedicated the idea of Hive Mind politics in this game besides a few rumors here and there about the Hive Mind not being included in the game (and if Paradox have explicitly said that there would be no hive mind, please inform me), as well as why.

I can see obvious "broken" components of a hive mind government. Theoretically, it should have absolutely no internal conflicts since ALL members of empire have no free will and must abide to the whims of the queen. That is one big obvious problem with having hive mind politics. There is also the matter that military units would have effectively infinite morale, since they cannot do anything that is not of your orders.

I see another problem that I don't think others have really mention out of what I saw, and that is that, assuming the hive-mind species is genetically and evolved hive-mind as opposed to, say, having formed a hive mind through advanced development, the entire empire would be run by one family. It would not be feasible unless the hive-mind somehow accepted members who were NOT decedents of the queen (which would make it just more efficient totalitarianism than a real hive mind). The hive would not be able to repopulate without there being other hives of the same species, and since you can't really run a space empire without some form of global unity on the homeworld, a hive that is a space empire would quickly dissipate into nothingness, or at the very least face some SERIOUS inbreeding, becoming a severe handicap when competing against races that are not bound by a universal family lineage.

However, I personally feel that the "Hive Mind" is much too iconic to not be in the game, at least not in later DLC if it cannot be in the release game, and I have some ideas in which such a system might work while at the same time being balanced and making sense.

Since the hive needs other hives to exist in order to keep the species going, a hive-mind species could function as a conglomeration of genetically unrelated queens, like a federation, or some weird version of the Holy Roman Empire. This would mean for a much more divided government than even a democracy. They could even elect a queen to "rule them all", or even have a MALE assume executive status (the one who allows the species to continue existing has the most power). This could result in large and interesting internal struggles between queens or males competing for power, where each faction can raise much larger percentages of support at a time (while being locked away from other large percentages of support who are subject to queens loyal to the player). This is because a faction needs just the support of an individual queen in order to get an entire population on board since they have no free will.

Another balance I can see is in that managing vast tracks of space would be much harder. Whilst other governments have the luxury of trusting the personal judgement of their colonial governors to run far-away colonies the way the empire wants them run, a hive mind has to provide every decision for every colony. Since we can see that even FTL travel in the game results in noticeable amounts of time for which objects, and presumably information as well, take to travel, a colony might need to wait a while to hear what the hive has decreed, since they cannot make their own decisions. This is a big problem for colonies that are NOT of the same species as the hive, like conquered planets, since they might have an easier time rebelling unless the queen is physically there on that planet with a huge army. Now, I don't think we should actually represent time differences for every order given, but rather organization-related penalties, big ones based on distance from the hive leader's current location.

TL;DR A hive-mind empire requires multiple hives in order to keep reproducing and avoid genetic stagnation. Instead of flat, overpowered, "total power" control that we think a hive mind might have in space, they would need to form a federation, an oligarchy, or democracy of hive leaders, perhaps having a meta-queen or a male being leader. Then, further, since nobody has free will, colonies 100% absolutely need to be controlled by the hive leader, resulting in serious management and organizational issues over long distances. Subjects not of the same species will also find it easier to start rebellions against the hive if the hive leader does not place her or his presence on a subject planet.

So, what do you guys think? Talk about how a hive mind could work in this game, or how it could NOT work I could believe the latter being an inevitable truth for the sake of resources needed to make the game balanced, enjoyable, and make sense.

 

[ParagonExile]

I haven't seen anything supporting hive minds explicitly, but one of the shared IGN videos explicitly shows an insectoid species (The Ix'Idar) with the "Fanatical Collectivist" ideology. On top of that their default government is a "Despotic Hegemony", implying their leader has absolute control over everything, as in a hive mind. I think this is Stellaris' way of presenting them, without flat-out saying what it is.

I imagine there will be an expansion with "governments" that cannot be reformed or changed, like hive mind (your species is biologically hard-wired to be linked at all times), technological singularity (everyone merged as a single entity via technology to become one person) and the like.

I'd really love more unique forms of governance and operation in general, and this is no exception. Anything that makes the aliens more "alien" is a-ok in my book. Fun and unique mini-mechanics like the ones for varying religions in CK or EU would also be cool.

 

[ponasozis]

DLC the swarm

 

[BrokenSky]

Well let's say there's two kinds of hiveminds;
The swarm of alien locust kind (A) and the complex society kind (B).

B is the only kind that could be playable as far as I can see; it's not a hive-mind like insect hives, more like if everyone had a compulsory psychic up-link to the same skype call. People are individual to an extent, but very collectivist - they may be able to feel each other's pain, for example. This could be modeled using a species trait. Possible effects would be higher unity and ethical inertia (i.e. pops would be slower to change ethics, and wouldn't do so at all outside of some distance dependent of the speed of light and characteristic time of thought. Likely all the pops on one planet would have the same ethics?

A isn't a playable species; its an extinction event. Tyranids, for example.

 

[fatrat]

http://swordofthestars.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Hiver_Society

Reading this reminded me of the Hivers from Sword of The Stars. They're pretty interesting as far as insect races go. They're a have mind, they have one queen who rules them, but they have many, many princesses who rule over all the hiver worlds and have a will of there own. This has lead to more then a few civil wars,

 

[Milten]

Not quite understood which kind of hivemind are you talking about. The actual hivemind with shared thoughts or just ant-like society.
First one would require separate mechanics aka dlc. Second one could be emulated by current game to some extent, by making all governors sub-queens, scientists - males, soldiers - infertile females. Or whatever order you like.

 

[The_Meme_Man]

Not quite understood which kind of hivemind are you talking about. The actual hivemind with shared thoughts or just ant-like society.
First one would require separate mechanics aka dlc. Second one could be emulated by current game to some extent, by making all governors sub-queens, scientists - males, soldiers - infertile females. Or whatever order you like.

I kinda mean the second kind, the hive mind societies that are, by nature, hive mind, so yeah, ants, bees, wasps, etc.

 

[GhostKiller01]

I'm guessing that a Stellaris Hive Mind will have to be very interesting.
First of all, a hive mind has one direct goal: evolution. The Hive must always evolve, it is hardwired into the Queen as the survival of the Hive. A Hive must be able to withstand any threat, and would therefore require a constant alterations in the Hive mannerism to survive the practically infinite threats the galaxy offers. This would cause every generation to be "superior" to the one behind it. The Queen would at some point in early expansion realise that its pheromone link is starting to take days to transmit to its distant colonies, and would therefore need to grant some form of intelligence to each system leader to maintain the colony safe until it receives directives from the Queen, as well as setting up local breeders to maintain and expand the population.
This would drastically change how the whole Hive would work. The systems would not owe alliegance directly to the Queen, but to the local breeders, who are sent a delegate from the Queen to grant directives from the Hive and advise on the prosperity of the Hive as a whole. The local breeders would not see the Hive as a whole as their "species", but would instead see their systems as a seperate entity, which traces back to the Queen, much like a cadet house or a branch house of a dynasty. The politics would be something that would throroughly change the Hive, as the betterment of the Hive as a whole would not always mean for the breeders the betterment of a system's inhabitants. For example, if during a war, the Hive must reorganize its fleets after a disastrous battle and retreats them from the surrounding systems in order to prepare a overwhelming counterattack would spell disaster for the outlying systems, now left defenceless. They would not see the withdrawal as a tactical retreat, but as an abandoment of that system, and could revolt in order to sign a seperate peace treaty.

 

[zyphial]

Hive mind wouldn't be difficult to model at all. Consciousness is already a concept Paradox has explored with Vicky 2, all you have to do is translate that into a hive mind. When Maslow is satisfied, the drones cooperate. When something distrupts their orderly life (eg a warp storm disrupts communication with the Queen, a local disaster causes a high pain/suffering noise-to-signal in the local hive, the network overextends itself by having too many minds), consciousness rises. Consciousness penalizes every aspect of society by making drones less efficient and less cooperative, and high consciousness in any local setting might fracture a hive. Assimilating any new group might spike consciousness globally and start off with a high local consciousness.

Actually, Vicky 2's Consciousness and EU4's Local Autonomy are pretty much golden models for this.

I think you could also make it *feel* different by adding in bonuses and penalties. Maybe a hive mind at 0 consciousness has a lower tech rate - no competition, no inovation - and no/poor leaders - no individuals, no leadership. Perhaps recruiting leaders like Zerg Cerebrates or Locutus of Borg spikes consciousness (due to an infusion of individuality into the hive). A high consciousness could run the risk of massive civil wars/offshoots on top of the efficiency penalty, but higher tech rate and far better leaders. Sort of a see-saw effect that requires you to balance on the razor's edge until some disaster eventually pushes you over the edge...

Honestly a system like this sounds almost easy to mod in.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

To be honest, hive minds just seem like something that would be added on later via DLC (though OP's ideas do seem very cool).

 

[EddieTheLion]

Would a hive mind necessarily be eusocial, and would a eusocial hive mind species necessarily have the hivemind separated strictly by hive?

Actually, eusociality would make for some interesting mechanics even without a hivemind.

 

[QueenoftheIsles]

I think we can all agree on one thing, if they're going to add Hive Minds, it should be in a later released high detail DLC rather than rushed haphazardly into the vanilla game

 

[Namm]

A hive mind species capable of space travel is likely also capable of genetically improving itself. Thus there's no need for other hives to prevent genetic stagnation.

 

[Caspoi]

Well the reason why hive minds do not seem to be in the game (at the start at least) is that Paradox still want the different species to work, mostly, as humans. Such "exotic" things llike hive minds or AI's might (and probably will) be added at a later date, similar to how initially only feudalistic christians were avaivable in Crusader Kings 2.

Personally I am not too fond of the hive mind trope in Stellaris (one of the reasons being that it usually consists of a serius case of telepathy) but if you could combine it with AI's then it would be interesting.

 

[Krajzen]

DLC the swarm

DLC robot races!

 

[BrokenSky]

I think we can all agree on one thing, if they're going to add Hive Minds, it should be in a later released high detail DLC rather than rushed haphazardly into the vanilla game

I disagree. They should be rushed haphazardly into the vanilla release, THEN fleshed out with a full DLC/expansion. The haphazard one could be unplayable in vanilla though; an end game disaster like AI rather than a full species?

 

[aitaituo]

I haven't seen anything supporting hive minds explicitly, but one of the shared IGN videos explicitly shows an insectoid species (The Ix'Idar) with the "Fanatical Collectivist" ideology. On top of that their default government is a "Despotic Hegemony", implying their leader has absolute control over everything, as in a hive mind. I think this is Stellaris' way of presenting them, without flat-out saying what it is.

I imagine there will be an expansion with "governments" that cannot be reformed or changed, like hive mind (your species is biologically hard-wired to be linked at all times), technological singularity (everyone merged as a single entity via technology to become one person) and the like.

I'd really love more unique forms of governance and operation in general, and this is no exception. Anything that makes the aliens more "alien" is a-ok in my book. Fun and unique mini-mechanics like the ones for varying religions in CK or EU would also be cool.

Yes, this is how I think they're handling eusocial species, which is what is generally meant by insectoid hive minds. But the thing is that eusociality is not in any way a shared consciousness and they behave in fundamentally similar ways to non-eusocial societies. Each hive is essentially a sovereign nation that is in a perpetual state of war with most other hives, though close genetic relatives may cooperate. There are even xenophilic and xenophobic eusocial species on earth, the former incorporating different specials into their genetic/social hierarchy.

So, I think the existing mechanics will represent eusociality just fine. True hive-minds with shared consciousnesses, well, I just don't see them as in any way realistic. How do you share a consciousness across a few feet, much less a planet or galaxy? Eusocial animals do something like it, generally, through extremely simple brains in workers and pheromones, but each individual is still very much an individual, just a really stupid one that genetically follows orders.

As for swarm type species, like locusts, it turns out they're just really dumb, too. Locust behavior is dictated by the size and density of the swarm. The closer together the locusts are, the more they bite each other, which makes the bitten ones run. When there's enough of them, they spontaneously converge in a direction, like a river does. This is not a basis for a civilization, so the best you get is a swarm themed empire, like the Zerg.

 

[BrokenSky]

True hive-minds with shared consciousnesses, well, I just don't see them as in any way realistic. How do you share a consciousness across a few feet, much less a planet or galaxy?

A few feet is easy and only needs tech we could make today (at great expense) and a good wifi connection. Interplanetary is a bit harder and interstellar is almost impossible, but if FTL exists and FT credit trading does too (things we know are in stellaris) then that wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Concrete]

It wouldn't be too unreasonable. You could sort out the military performance say, using EU4 combat terms: Infinite morale, but vast penalties to discipline and tactics. Such a thing would 'fit' within EU4 if the numbers were balanced correctly.

Rather than straight up omniconnected Hive Mind, something like Starcraft's Zerg could fit well enough.
Specifically, it might be better to be named a Swarm rather than a Hive Mind. I reference the zerg but not for their mutation shtick.

Conglomeration of leading minds. Each dominate mindless drones beneath their station, a few sapient officers for things such as science.
Each of these Hives(planet? POP?) is independently minded but they are united in their goal of furthering their species.
May have occasional thoughts of rebellion, so as to not drift far from factions and usual Paradox internal conflict. Motivation given for rebellion could simply be disdain towards the 'senior' Hive leader/s.

Which actually presents a similar picture to how a nation in a Paradox game functions at the computing level. Human player lead unity towards single purpose, of which every numeric value of manpower and production contributes as much as they are able... until they don't because they feel like being difficult, or are reacting to mismanagement.

 

[zyphial]

A few feet is easy and only needs tech we could make today (at great expense) and a good wifi connection. Interplanetary is a bit harder and interstellar is almost impossible, but if FTL exists and FT credit trading does too (things we know are in stellaris) then that wouldn't be a problem.

Yeah, without FTL the best you can do is a confederation of hive minds. Perhaps one queen per planet - even interplanetary hive minds would have immense lag time (imagine sixteen minutes round trip for a stimulus/response!) Assuming you can cheese physics a bit, stable micro-wormholes might be sufficient - the size of a wormhole has an exponential impact on its distortion of space time and required energy, I suppose if you had a sort of Zerg Overlord with a portable, stable micro-wormhole straight to the Queen you could get away with an intergalactic Hive Mind.

Softer science fiction stories tend to use a "subspace" signal that's FTL. Ender's Game on the other hand gave us the ansible.