The Historical Organization of the Chinese Troops

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judah

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What's the source on that? Id kill to read that book.
Not just one book. It was mainly from The Brief History of Kuomintang Army.国民党军简史, by Cao Jianlang, 曹剑浪,PLA Press 解放军出版社. In Sino-jap/Civil War Period, The book is sorted by year(1937-1949), by hierarchy(Warzones, Armygroups, Armies, Divisions).

Firstly I read the whole part of all 12 years 8 years of Sinojap plus 4 years of civil war(since there are bunchs of errors, i 'd correct it with years of cumulation), and get a general idea of all armies and divisions, and then make it into H3 oob with compromise between History and Game.
 
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Thank you very much.

About the HoI 4 OOB:
I think it will base on the 15ooo "standard western division size" organised unter a single stack like command. Looks pretty similar to HoI 2 for me. So the Division will be the main element in HoI 4. Will be difficult to transfer the chinese OOB into this system - or by rename chinese divisions into chinese corps?
 

judah

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Thank you very much.

About the HoI 4 OOB:
I think it will base on the 15ooo "standard western division size" organised unter a single stack like command. Looks pretty similar to HoI 2 for me. So the Division will be the main element in HoI 4. Will be difficult to transfer the chinese OOB into this system - or by rename chinese divisions into chinese corps?

As corps, like we have discussed.

"More than 300 low quality inf divs" is unnecessary, and as tested in H3, would be a disaster.
 
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Porkman

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Not just one book. It was mainly from The Brief History of Kuomintang Army.国民党军简史, by Cao Jianlang, 曹剑浪,PLA Press 解放军出版社. In Sino-jap/Civil War Period, The book is sorted by year(1937-1949), by hierarchy(Warzones, Armygroups, Armies, Divisions).

Firstly I read the whole part of all 12 years 8 years of Sinojap plus 4 years of civil war(since there are bunchs of errors, i 'd correct it with years of cumulation), and get a general idea of all armies and divisions, and then make it into H3 oob with compromise between History and Game.

Have you ever gotten ahold of the equivalent book, published in Taiwan? I know the Mainland has only, in the last decade or so, started dealing honestly with the contributions of the NRA during the war against Japan.
 

Sir Garnet

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As corps, like we have discussed.

"More than 300 low quality inf divs" is unnecessary, and as tested in H3, would be a disaster.

Amen!

Each of the 3 divisions would fit neatly into the "brigade" slots in the template, with ample room left over for any corps assets or permitted attachments.

Very helpful work, Judah. Thank you. A lot of people will want to play China, and anything that hels make a solid, credible and playable China game will be appreciated by many.

The big question on effectiveness is the extent to which the difference for particular units is a factor of quality of troops, or of numbers of men, training, equipment and access to more, leadership, or other aspects of the situation. These are all representable one way or another in the game directly or factored into a quality rating.

One particular scaling challenge is that WW2 Japanese infantry were particularly "ferocious" and both aggressively thrusting and defensively tenacious, something for which opponents were often unprepared. There is also the importance of terrain in shaping battle results, so your 10-to-1 rule of thumb is interesting.
 

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Well, I think China theatre would probably get a DLC treatment if HOI4 could sell well (Which I kinda doubt it....)

我要打倒蔣匪打倒共匪!
 

judah

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Have you ever gotten ahold of the equivalent book, published in Taiwan? I know the Mainland has only, in the last decade or so, started dealing honestly with the contributions of the NRA during the war against Japan.

I am pretty sure that you can find that book in taiwan, but it is in chinese, so... ROC dep of national defence had published a series of NRA Armies/Divs' History, but for H4 we donot need those detailed. And I have never heard of another equivalent book in taiwan or mainland that would be as helpful to write CHI oobs in H3H4.

Better, but not enough. Personally speaking, anti-jap war has been the unique spiritual treasure to china, it was not until then that china had been one idealogically unified nationalist country. The only problem is, the government that led has been defeated in the following civil war and run to taiwan in 1949, CCP and her fans has been trying for 70 years to belittle antijap war(meanwhile talk more about Korean War), and to belittle the contribution of Chiang's government and Chiang's army, to damage Chiang 's legitimacy gained from Anti-jap War. The tougue changes with diffierent political needs, but one state point never changes: if it were CCP who led the war, china would had performed much better--as all H2H3H4 CHI players would think.:)

And I 'd say that, their(including CCP and her fans and H2H3H4 CHI players) confidence are from their ignorance.
 

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Nice read. A good OOB is important, but the base game mechanics will probably mean that a true OOB will result in horrible balance (such as insufficient Industry to maintain the true OOB, or the JAP AI being unable to deal with it, etc. etc.). At least, without additional game mechanics. Adding in equipment in HoI4 is a good step though as it means one can properly simulate large transfers of equipment by the Soviets and Allies.

Regarding OOB's such as Japan's, I remember doing a ridiculous amount of work on that for Darkest Hour. I think the thread here is more detailed than the numerous research I had to do...would've been nice to have access to that book tbh.

As for CHC, ideally I would give both CHI and CHC Government in Exile mechanics from HoI3 (note I never played HoI3, this is based on what I remember from the Dev Diaries) to control partisans. CHC can get a historically weak OOB as well on scenario start. CHC won the partisan war and ended up controlling most of the partisans, and this can be used to represent the huge surge in numbers of the Chinese Red Army/PLA which incorporated the partisans post-war. Then CHC can steal weapons and control rural territory occupied by Japan. I don't think the AI would be able to handle this mechanic though.

Nice to see old faces. :)
 
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judah

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Amen!

Each of the 3 divisions would fit neatly into the "brigade" slots in the template, with ample room left over for any corps assets or permitted attachments.

Very helpful work, Judah. Thank you. A lot of people will want to play China, and anything that hels make a solid, credible and playable China game will be appreciated by many.

The big question on effectiveness is the extent to which the difference for particular units is a factor of quality of troops, or of numbers of men, training, equipment and access to more, leadership, or other aspects of the situation. These are all representable one way or another in the game directly or factored into a quality rating.

One particular scaling challenge is that WW2 Japanese infantry were particularly "ferocious" and both aggressively thrusting and defensively tenacious, something for which opponents were often unprepared. There is also the importance of terrain in shaping battle results, so your 10-to-1 rule of thumb is interesting.

Actually, in WWII, in div level combat, defence bonus is not as large as 3:1, maybe 1.5:1. While for NRA, due to lack of Art/automatic-weapon and basic tactic training, most troop perform, i'd say, OK in defense, but dum in offensive combat, from division level to company level.

That is why I say NRA perform 10:1 in offensive operations. In H3 would say that NRA units have toughness 10%of their defence.

That is true that JAP land force sometimes are overestimated. In H3 I'd say, JAP Divs have fair soft attack, low hard attack, fair defence and toughness, but high organization and morale ,so they could bear long time comba(units of most other countries would retreat or surrender long time ago) but killing efficiency is not very high.
 

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When you said that a corps would be the best "on map unit" for unit about how much soldiers do we talk here? In your division/corps TOE is no strength information and as far as i discovered in the past a European unit could be pretty different form an Asian unit in terms of numbers and strength (like this Japanese type A quarter divisions with up to 30ooo soldiers per division).
So i think a Chinese corps is close to 15ooo soldiers in general? Or is the Chinese army close to this numbers (basing on the big casualties of the Chinese army).
 

franc001sher

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When you said that a corps would be the best "on map unit" for unit about how much soldiers do we talk here? In your division/corps TOE is no strength information and as far as i discovered in the past a European unit could be pretty different form an Asian unit in terms of numbers and strength (like this Japanese type A quarter divisions with up to 30ooo soldiers per division).
So i think a Chinese corps is close to 15ooo soldiers in general? Or is the Chinese army close to this numbers (basing on the big casualties of the Chinese army)
There were about 30 k men in a corps in the theoretic ob. But in practice, there were about 15 to 20 k soldiers in a corps in most cases.
Only the Chinese Army in India was different. There were 12500 soldiers in a division and in the full strength. And in fact there should be about 15 k men in a related division in my suggested template as there were a few battalions which were from the independent units which were commanded by the army commander.
 
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judah

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When you said that a corps would be the best "on map unit" for unit about how much soldiers do we talk here? In your division/corps TOE is no strength information and as far as i discovered in the past a European unit could be pretty different form an Asian unit in terms of numbers and strength (like this Japanese type A quarter divisions with up to 30ooo soldiers per division).
So i think a Chinese corps is close to 15ooo soldiers in general? Or is the Chinese army close to this numbers (basing on the big casualties of the Chinese army).

Depends on how you define soldiers.

Theoratically, there would be 35k in one triangular corps, including corps HQ, corps attachments(temporarily attached art units excluded) and 3 inf. divs. it could be 10k men in each div, a little less than 3k in each inf rgt.

The actual number varied. Some corps in south Shanxi north of Yellow River in charge of guerrilla mission with 2 divs(one being the main force div or as I named, core div, the other units may be in terrible condition) or 1 div+1 bgd could have even less than 10k, 50% of toe, because of poor logistical capacity(1/3 soldiers were carring food/ ammunition on shoukders and foot from riverine port to their camp in mountains, 1/3 on their way to the port), While some main force corps could have more than 40k, e.g. 74A had 45k in 1944*11*7.

However, lacking of weapon, a large portion of regimental or even company men were just porters, carring luggages with stick on the shoulder(called Iron Shoulder Team). A famous chinese history prof. Huang Renyu(16th cadet graduate of ROC military accademy, then a platoon leaderof 54A, a fairly good A-leve, front-linel corps, then an staff officer in New 1st Army in India, Then US staff College, then Doctor of history in ,Michigen U, Post-dictor and Professor in US and UK), stated in his memo, that only 4 smart soldiers in his platoon were fairly trained how to shoot, while the other 30 men were too dum to train, they were just porters in most case, and then in combat, they might shoot freely to scar the enemy. That case was in 1941-1942, the darkest hour of china, and though his corps was A-level, frontliine corps, his platoon could had been a poor one, it could be better ealier or later, but you could get some gist. So if all men counted, the corps would have 35k, if only combat soldiers equivalent to western infantry unit counted, 20k would be fine.

If we set chi land force as 100 corps('cause there were 123 inf corps), I suggest 30k-35k each. We could realize its poor actual number by limiting CHI 's military industry and reinforcent rate.Lacking-Art, Poorly-Trained, Low-Actual Number CHI units, might make their contribution in defence, at least they could disperse JAP force and lower its strength(number of divs) that JAP could use to attack .

PS: different from westerners knowledge, CHI was facing lack of qualified soldier since 1939, due to its medieval administrative structure(especially conscription) and poor economy(must leave some strong peasants in their villages). Human wave, as i see, should be rather a system of politics than just a low level land doctrine.
 
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An additional point is that the size of the manpower of a tactical unit became lower and lower along with the industrialization. Chiang's army was similar with Napoleon's while the tactical units of some industrialized powers were much smaller.
 

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Small side note (but here are the experts):
In DH the Chinese fleet had an armored cruiser called Zhenhai but there are no information about this ship. Can someone verify this cruiser with data and information (armament, displacement, length, ectpp). Thank you very much.
 

SchwarzKatze

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Small side note (but here are the experts):
In DH the Chinese fleet had an armored cruiser called Zhenhai but there are no information about this ship. Can someone verify this cruiser with data and information (armament, displacement, length, ectpp). Thank you very much.
(Google translate, beware)
It's a merchant-converted seaplane tender:
https://translate.google.com/transl...-250-180-26.hinet-ip.hinet.net/ming/2502.html
The plane:
https://translate.google.com/transl...u=http://www.airwar.ru/enc/flyboat/fba19.html

Supposed to be a FBA 19 on the deck of Zhenhai
NE3JMD8.jpg


Name: 鎮海 Zhenhai
Converted from the merchant vessel 祥利 Xiangli by Fengtian Clique in September 1923, used to be a SMS transport
Displacement: 2708 tons, unspecified load and unspecified kind of "ton".
Power: 1200 hp or shp, they're probably not differentiated in colloquial Chinese.
Speed: 10.8 knots
Armament: 2×4.7 inch Armstrong (probably BL 4.7 inch?), 4×3 inch (if "Armstrong" applies to both, then probably QF 12 pounder 12 cwt?), two machine guns of unspecified caliber.
Aircraft: 1 or 2 FBA 19 on board. A total of 7 FBA 19 were bought from FBA.
 

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The reports regarding the WW Wednesday campaign indicate the Chinese divisions represent divisions and not corps They have 4 infantry bns.
 

Porkman

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The reports regarding the WW Wednesday campaign indicate the Chinese divisions represent divisions and not corps They have 4 infantry bns.

Entirely expected. Disappointing but expected
 

Sir Garnet

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That is not a problem. It can be modded.

True, but I was hoping HOI4 would be clean and ready to play right out of the box (so to speak) both for single and multiplayer.

Also a game recommendation is weaker when qualified by advising it be modded.

Unlike cases where the market requires that the myth must be allowed to shade the truth, giving corps names and strengths to ROC units is pretty self-explanatory to begin with and avoids rather than creates apparent anomalies.

Maybe there is a reasonable explanation why the current approach is better? Any ideas?