The Hellcat is overpowered

[xXSunSlayerXx]

He's saying the M4 105 isn't some unique wonder unit. 1200m SP HE has always been an issue, but the M4 105 hardly brings anything new to the table. If it was a M4A3, then sure, it would be some power creep to see it in A, but the M4 isn't as resilient.

Oh, OK.
But just because other divisions have something similar doesn't make it any less amazing.
And the only other Division with a comparable unit (the armor does make a huge difference for this unit) in phase A is the 91st Luftlande, and they suffer from
-few support slots
-only one StuH 42 card in phase A
-only one 1200m AP unit to team up with

Compared to the 4th:
-can field two M4/Hellcat pairs in phase A
-doesn't need to make any compromises in terms of slots to achieve that
-the Hellcat makes this setup more viable in a number of ways compared to an AT gun, see below

For instance, how do you gain a Phase A advantage on Caumont L'Eventé as the 4AD against the 12th SS? Firefly basically hard counter Hellcats and you have one of the worst A ATG line ups as well as only one actual tank.

It gets absolutely wrecked in that matchup, no question about that.

I think you can get good ground covered against the 716th or 352nd, but I fail to see how this manages to work against other armor decks.

If you run into multiple high armor targets (with only 1000m range) and you cannot pop them before they get in range, retreat the Hellcat a small distance but keep the M4 in place. The enemy now has the choice to either
-shoot at the M4 and get sniped by the Hellcat in return (most likely before getting a kill)
-keep following the Hellcat but get panicked by the M4 and forced to retreat
Works pretty well against 3-4 of the phase A tanks, beyond that the enemy simply 'outspend' you on that flank.

Perhaps I don't get this division. It feels like it has a conflict in personality with its key star being the Hellcat but not much else to engage tanks at max range and difficulty countering Stugs or anything else a closer range.

It's absolutely an acquired taste. But for me, having repeatedly tried all Allies decks and having disliked all of them, this is the first one I consider fun to play, and I don't feel disadvantaged in any way...

 

[KattiValk]

Oh, OK.
But just because other divisions have something similar doesn't make it any less amazing.
And the only other Division with a comparable unit (the armor does make a huge difference for this unit) in phase A is the 91st Luftlande, and they suffer from
-few support slots
-only one StuH 42 card in phase A
-only one 1200m AP unit to team up with

Compared to the 4th:
-can field two M4/Hellcat pairs in phase A
-doesn't need to make any compromises in terms of slots to achieve that
-the Hellcat makes this setup more viable in a number of ways compared to an AT gun, see below

The Sherman is definitely scary to face, but this capability is not strong enough to face down other armor decks in a full game.

It gets absolutely wrecked in that matchup, no question about that.

Yes.

If you run into multiple high armor targets (with only 1000m range) and you cannot pop them before they get in range, retreat the Hellcat a small distance but keep the M4 in place. The enemy now has the choice to either
-shoot at the M4 and get sniped by the Hellcat in return (most likely before getting a kill)
-keep following the Hellcat but get panicked by the M4 and forced to retreat
Works pretty well against 3-4 of the phase A tanks, beyond that the enemy simply 'outspend' you on that flank.


It's absolutely an acquired taste. But for me, having repeatedly tried all Allies decks and having disliked all of them, this is the first one I consider fun to play, and I don't feel disadvantaged in any way...

Perhaps you should try other Allied decks more. The Scots and Canada get so much acclaim for good reason.

 

[Herr_Robert]

For instance, how do you gain a Phase A advantage on Caumont L'Eventé as the 4AD against the 12th SS? Firefly basically hard counter Hellcats and you have one of the worst A ATG line ups as well as only one actual tank. I think you can get good ground covered against the 716th or 352nd, but I fail to see how this manages to work against other armor decks.

The 12th SS is going to have bigger problems with the B26 Marauder than the 4AD is going to have with the Firefly. The 12th SS has no fighters in A, and its player has to invest heavily in AA to protect the Firefly from the B26. If he doesn't the B26 can simply stun the Firefly and it will end up as (Hell)cat food. If he does, he will have spent precious resources on AA and the 4AD will be able to use the B26 elsewhere and gain ground there. Another option is to skip the Firefly, but that's a gamble because the 4AD player can use his armor freely then.

 

[IronHat]

Well, that is a fair question.

I think I would start by saying 4 Acc M4s are a seriously problematic aspect of US armor. While Shermans are threatening in A, their utterly, laughably, incredibly crap accuracy simply makes them a bad joke with low vet and in later Phases (2ID's M4A1s are basically wastes of points 90% of the time). A large part of the US's problems come down to how poor its AT is, and this is one of the larger aspects of that problem. A combination of generally inaccurate tools (that the 3AD shakes off unlike literally every other US div) and no easy front attack AP (is there even anything over 13 AP @ 1200m?) means you have to play ambush with things that suck at ambushing most of the time.

remember that before the second wave expansion, all m4a1 available in phase A have 1 star by default. This effectively offset the 4 acc gun via veterancy. (m4dd have the same gun as as the m4a1)

If All the sherman gun get standardize to m4a3 standard, you could just remove the vet on the 2ID and 3AD phase A sherman. Abram would still get Elite vet since he's Abram

 

[xXSunSlayerXx]

Perhaps you should try other Allied decks more. The Scots and Canada get so much acclaim for good reason.

As someone who loves the 17th, the 352nd and the 716th, where PaK40/43s and infantry support guns are plentiful, I hate the lack of long range HE in those two divisions.

The Canadians don't have any fast, reliable way to deal with AT guns at all (I don't count artillery and planes, those are just too slow to rely on them in every situation)
The Scots have Churchills for that, but while they only have one less armor than M4s, that bumps their penetration chance by PaK40s up from 28% to 42%. Too risky for my taste. Also, they have nothing in that department once Pak43s or 88s show up.

They just don't match my playing style at all. At least the 2nd Inf has HE damage on their M5s...

 

[Karlburg]

As someone who loves the 17th, the 352nd and the 716th, where PaK40/43s and infantry support guns are plentiful, I hate the lack of long range HE in those two divisions.

The Canadians don't have any fast, reliable way to deal with AT guns at all (I don't count artillery and planes, those are just too slow to rely on them in every situation)
The Scots have Churchills for that, but while they only have one less armor than M4s, that bumps their penetration chance by PaK40s up from 28% to 42%. Too risky for my taste. Also, they have nothing in that department once Pak43s or 88s show up.

They just don't match my playing style at all. At least the 2nd Inf has HE damage on their M5s...

Yeah, the Canadians are kinda frustrating in environments where infantry support pieces that aren't vehicles can play a big role because their artillery sucks.

The scots can roll in the AVRE though and a lot of the axis divisions don't have a good way to deal with it in close quarters. Make heavy use of fire pos to win against people trying to micro. The scots basic rifles is nice in similar situations with the double SMGs able to beat a lot of the axis squads.

 

[KattiValk]

The 12th SS is going to have bigger problems with the B26 Marauder than the 4AD is going to have with the Firefly. The 12th SS has no fighters in A, and its player has to invest heavily in AA to protect the Firefly from the B26. If he doesn't the B26 can simply stun the Firefly and it will end up as (Hell)cat food. If he does, he will have spent precious resources on AA and the 4AD will be able to use the B26 elsewhere and gain ground there. Another option is to skip the Firefly, but that's a gamble because the 4AD player can use his armor freely then.

The 12th SS does have issues countering planes, I don't know how much suppression a B-26 does to a Firefly. Worth trying out I suppose. I kind of wish the plane had a few more MGs, 5 is actually less than a Mustang.

remember that before the second wave expansion, all m4a1 available in phase A have 1 star by default. This effectively offset the 4 acc gun via veterancy. (m4dd have the same gun as as the m4a1)

If All the sherman gun get standardize to m4a3 standard, you could just remove the vet on the 2ID and 3AD phase A sherman. Abram would still get Elite vet since he's Abram

It would be nice to see if only to make later game M4A1s something more than a waste of points.

As someone who loves the 17th, the 352nd and the 716th, where PaK40/43s and infantry support guns are plentiful, I hate the lack of long range HE in those two divisions.

The Canadians don't have any fast, reliable way to deal with AT guns at all (I don't count artillery and planes, those are just too slow to rely on them in every situation)
The Scots have Churchills for that, but while they only have one less armor than M4s, that bumps their penetration chance by PaK40s up from 28% to 42%. Too risky for my taste. Also, they have nothing in that department once Pak43s or 88s show up.

They just don't match my playing style at all. At least the 2nd Inf has HE damage on their M5s...

I do get how that's hard to adjust to.

Canada gets all its power counters to ATGs and the like in B with M7 DD (overpriced) and elite Sextons, then its AT in C. You essentially have to live with being a little late to the party most of the time.

Scots have the AVRE and Crom for both types of range with HE. It's fun using the AVRE to stun behind corners, but the real draw IMO is the elite 17 lbers that wipe the floor with basically anything.

 

[Max_Damage]

I know right.

just count the hellcats. Who would have thought that 100 pt and early availability could be imbalanced

 

[Hawk8762]

The 12th SS is going to have bigger problems with the B26 Marauder than the 4AD is going to have with the Firefly. The 12th SS has no fighters in A, and its player has to invest heavily in AA to protect the Firefly from the B26. If he doesn't the B26 can simply stun the Firefly and it will end up as (Hell)cat food. If he does, he will have spent precious resources on AA and the 4AD will be able to use the B26 elsewhere and gain ground there. Another option is to skip the Firefly, but that's a gamble because the 4AD player can use his armor freely then.

I find the 12 SS to be my strongest German deck by far.
I don't use any of the Beute vehicles, rather I prefer investing in a solid infantry and mortar line to hold in A, and start pushing B. I have never found the b26 in A to be too much of an issue. You just gotta kinda play like an Airborne division in that you stay hidden, weapons off, until units are deadly close in your kill zone and he has no time to react. The b26 cant shoot what it cant see. My experience at least...

 

[Hawk8762]

I know right.

just count the hellcats. Who would have thought that 100 pt and early availability could be imbalanced

Considering that Jagdpanzer is literally invulnerable from range, your point? I find 4th Armored to be awkward to use, and I'm still tweaking the deck. Yes, it has a VERY satisfying and powerful opening, but it quickly loses steam as its options for dealing with 14+ armored vehicles is limited.

 

[Herr_Robert]

I find the 12 SS to be my strongest German deck by far.
I don't use any of the Beute vehicles, rather I prefer investing in a solid infantry and mortar line to hold in A, and start pushing B. I have never found the b26 in A to be too much of an issue. You just gotta kinda play like an Airborne division in that you stay hidden, weapons off, until units are deadly close in your kill zone and he has no time to react. The b26 cant shoot what it cant see. My experience at least...

The B26 is a big issue if the player know what he's doing. Trying to hide until phase B against a competent 4AD player will not work because he will advance with rifle squads and find your units, and then the B26s will stun them where it's possible and force them to surrender or fall back. The best map for 12SS when fighting 4AD is actually St Mere Eglise, which would seem odd since it's a panzer deck, but the map is small enough to allow the 12SS player to create an effective AA net in A, and it's probably the map where 12SS needs the Firefly the least. However, when it comes to team games, I think 12SS is one of the best decks in the game.

But most players don't seem to know how to use the 4AD well, based on my experiences in custom games; I have seen players use M4A1s with the deck, when you should rely almost entirely on Hellcats and Stuarts to get the most out of it. No reason to pay $130 for a M4A1 to support your infantry when you can get two Stuarts for that price.

 

[Max_Damage]

4 armored is super overpowered

 

[Apolyon]

Agree. Which value would be better: 2 or 3 ? If I remeber correctly its armor thickness is slightly lower than Marder III but is sloped. Could be able to fear "quickly" it with high-HE guns would be wonderfull.

 

[Hawk8762]

The B26 is a big issue if the player know what he's doing. Trying to hide until phase B against a competent 4AD player will not work because he will advance with rifle squads and find your units, and then the B26s will stun them where it's possible and force them to surrender or fall back. The best map for 12SS when fighting 4AD is actually St Mere Eglise, which would seem odd since it's a panzer deck, but the map is small enough to allow the 12SS player to create an effective AA net in A, and it's probably the map where 12SS needs the Firefly the least. However, when it comes to team games, I think 12SS is one of the best decks in the game.

But most players don't seem to know how to use the 4AD well, based on my experiences in custom games; I have seen players use M4A1s with the deck, when you should rely almost entirely on Hellcats and Stuarts to get the most out of it. No reason to pay $130 for a M4A1 to support your infantry when you can get two Stuarts for that price.

I typically start with a wirblewind anyways
Obviously, it cant defend a whole map in 1v1 by itself, but just quicjly roll it behind friendly lines over to where the push is happening. At least so far, I have not found that A phase B26 to be much more than a nuisance.