The Hellcat is overpowered

[YppY]

LegionX, I seem to remember your two M18 chasing my Marader and running into two 2 star AT guns. There is no reason for the m18 to get into range of a AT gun, they should be held back to counter the german armor where ever they push or to support your own push. Also you did not use the B26 to strafe my Marader or AT guns.

Dianno5741, who is that a slippery slope argument? What I'm saying is german panzer divisions do not have the range to engage the M18, the only counter to M18, if they are used correctly is air, and if you are lucky AT. But 4th strong AA and B26s domiante the air, there is nothing a german panzer division can do abour it in the A phace, since there AA is trash and their aircraft can't stay in the air long enough to get the B26s out of the air. As long as the 4th has these units there is nothing you can do about them. It is not that he counters me and the I have to then counter him. There is no unit remotely capable of doing it.

 

[Miskyavine]

M18s are maybe a little cheap, but if they were more expensive they really wouldnt be worth it they cant take any hit at all, and have no veterancy at all, AT guns of any deck can take them out. M18s arent meant to slug out at max range they are meant to drive full speed shoot a tank in the side and leave.That situation is easily countered. M18s are nice and at a 100 point price make it a really cool choice and brings life to a rather weak or expensive division ingame. Sure M12s are nice but 200 points is alot and having only 1 doesnt make a differance. The M18 is the only thing keeping 4th in the spotlight and making that deck worth playing and any nerf to the already very fragile and micro-intesnsive M18 will not just nerf the M18 but also the division as a whole.

Is it a little underpriced maybe but anymore and the unit starts getting into prices with vehicles that have much more armor then it and in this game speed is not a decisive enough factor to warrant a major price hike. So in the grand scheme of things the M18 is not a OP unit.

Hellcat has

Abysmal armor
No vet

Mediocre gun

its only redeeming quialitys are price and speed.

You want underpriced units go look at 2e 110 point sherman 105s cheaper M10s 60 point M8 greyhounds in support.

 

[YppY]

Miskyavine, AT guns with not veterancy at max range will almost never hit there first shot. Before they can shot there second shot, the M18 will be way out of there range (and as I have said there is no reason to bring them into AT gun range anyway). And why would you need to flank enemy tanks, when you can penetrate there front armor and they can't shoot back? There are counters (as I said air, maybe arty or luring them into ambushes) but they are by no means easy, and AA and B26 counter them, with no answer to do anything about the AA and B26.

 

[Claremont Waltz]

Miskyavine, AT guns with not veterancy at max range will almost never hit there first shot.

Except at the worst possible moment for me personally, at which point they will hit every shot and I will look like a dumbass for thinking 2% means 2% and not "actually, fuck this guy right here in particular".

 

[Dianno5741]

Yppy.

Meaning our discussion is pointless. You said you had an issue. I suggested the most reasonable way to deal with it. However you aren't interested in suggestions or ideas but simply arguing on paper how you counter things. You would be correct except arguing how a fight turns out and how you would counter my counter to those units removes RNG and most importantly the human element.

I.e. You bring out a hellcat, I have to try to bait it. You shouldn't get reckless with it however people do. You do I bet (unless you've claimed you've never lost a hell cat to a dumb mistake which we all do). Theory crafting assumes perfect play.

You have maraders and you know you'll need AA or fighters to chase the B26 off. 12th SS has an unvetted firefly. Which isn't ideal but his 13Ap against your 11 armor at max gives you the advantage. He's less likely to pen and you will pen easily.

Several decks have pak 40s. I'm not saying it's easy or 4th armored isn't strong but they aren't "impossible". If you choose to believe that then that's your call. However that post is like the thousand other forum posts bitching about how certain builds are uncounterable.

 

[YppY]

Dianno5741, what are you talking about? I already said that german panzer divisions AA is trash. Wirbelwind might be the only worthwhile AA. And fights are going to do nothing against B26 and two 1000m range AA guns.

I'm not saying that there is nothing you can do. But it is very hard and for some division (e.g. 116th) you will just get roll in the A phase. Of cause skill plays a role, but the 4th has a huge advantage because there weapons completely shuts down vital units for some divisions.

 

[IS-2]

M18s are nice and at a 100 point price make it a really cool choice and brings life to a rather weak or expensive division ingame.

Spoiler

 

[Miskyavine]

Spoiler

Well aside from the M12, M18, and B26. Everything else in the deck is bland, weak or shitty so... M4A1s still have gimped guns 76s are mediocre at best. and almost no vet on anything. God i hope the units would be a little on the cheap side.

 

[Walther]

Well aside from the M12, M18, and B26. Everything else in the deck is bland, weak or shitty so... M4A1s still have gimped guns 76s are mediocre at best. and almost no vet on anything. God i hope the units would be a little on the cheap side.

Why dont you mention that this division have best income from all panzer divisions in the game?

 

[Miskyavine]

Why dont you mention that this division have best income from all panzer divisions in the game?

because it has the best income by only 5 points. having 5 points more in Phase B then the Guards Armored thats it and the 4th doesnt have any 17 pdrs to deal with phase C german tanks wich are always present.

 

[xXSunSlayerXx]

Well aside from the M12, M18, and B26. Everything else in the deck is bland, weak or shitty so... M4A1s still have gimped guns 76s are mediocre at best. and almost no vet on anything. God i hope the units would be a little on the cheap side.

So, we are just ignoring the phase A double vet command M4, phase A access to the best support tank in the game and a recon plane that can actually spot things? Besides, how many good units does the division need in your opinion? Some other divisions only have a single gimmick...

 

[Karlburg]

So, we are just ignoring the phase A double vet command M4, phase A access to the best support tank in the game and a recon plane that can actually spot things? Besides, how many good units does the division need in your opinion? Some other divisions only have a single gimmick...

Most of the German decks have tools to deal with the 1200m firepower the division has in phase A, but I do agree that it might be a bit much to have the 105, the hellcat, and Abrams for phase A. I don't think the recon plan is worth it because it sacrifices the tempo that deck has to keep up to win.

 

[xXSunSlayerXx]

Most of the German decks have tools to deal with the 1200m firepower the division has in phase A, but I do agree that it might be a bit much to have the 105, the hellcat, and Abrams for phase A. I don't think the recon plan is worth it because it sacrifices the tempo that deck has to keep up to win.

How do you deal with M4(105) in phase A? Even without the fire position trick, 27% penetration chance against a 15HE gun means that a PaK 40 has a fairly high chance to get wrecked. That's pretty much most German divisions down the drain, because they can't challenge the Hellcat/Abrams anymore...
I'm not trying to say that they have too much in A, though, just that the notion that this deck is weak seems absurd to me. It's simply a competent, phase A centric armored division.

 

[KattiValk]

1200m support vehicles are really annoying to deal with, especially well-armored ones like the M4 and Stuh 42. ATGs have a very hard time punishing them because light guns have pretty uninspiring CTH at most ranges so when you do get that flanking ambush, you're rolling the dice as to whether you'll even accomplish anything beyond losing the gun. The M4 105 is basically a beefier Cromwell and even more of a pain to kill given Pak 38 only matches its AV at max range.

Still, I dislike the 4AD because the tradeoffs it has compared to other armored decks to become a little more mech/infantry are to sever IMO. Hellcats are nice when you play with the proper player count for a map size, but are not enough to prop up the deck most of the time. I know it's supposed to be strong in A, but Axis already has plenty of options to utterly delete aggressive Hellcat play. I think the vehicles available to the 4AD in A are interesting, but not actually potent enough to accomplish anything. It has a good infantry tab by having half-baked AT-less Panzergrens and spam Rifles, neither of which can carry the day by themselves. This is made worse by how poor the arty tab is, with no assault arty and its one gimmick being an overly expensive supply hog/waste of points. You don't get the kind of HE output that Axis armor decks can put out because the arty that US divs rely on is severely lacking in this deck and the direct HE options are, as a rule, disappointing outside of the M4 105s. I feel like the deck would be more potent if its Phase B/C M4A1s were priced by the merit of their AT capability (which is piss poor, or you could buff Sherman accuracy to not trash tier, IDK). Right now, it feels like it's too difficult to hedge-hop with this division given how bad its late game is.

Something worth mentioning is again, just how bad M8s are compared to SPW 234s. The US literally has no SPW/Humber equivalent, a hole that is not fixed by the M8. I am under the impression the M8 is meant to be viable because of its somewhat nice AP, but actually hitting anything with its gun is a small miracle in itself that really makes you question its price tag. The support M8s the 4AD get are laughably bad at basically everything, and while not entirely useless (they have vet options), aren't a very good unit all things considered.

 

[Wixelt]

Spoiler

I think users here would appriciate it more if you provided a proper written reply instead of a simple meme image.

 

[Miskyavine]

How do you deal with M4(105) in phase A? Even without the fire position trick, 27% penetration chance against a 15HE gun means that a PaK 40 has a fairly high chance to get wrecked. That's pretty much most German divisions down the drain, because they can't challenge the Hellcat/Abrams anymore...
I'm not trying to say that they have too much in A, though, just that the notion that this deck is weak seems absurd to me. It's simply a competent, phase A centric armored division.

Same way you deal with the 12 SS Cromwell CS or the few decks that have phase A 88s including the 16 Lufts 2 star 88s

 

[Maniek1988]

How do you deal with M4(105) in phase A? Even without the fire position trick, 27% penetration chance against a 15HE gun means that a PaK 40 has a fairly high chance to get wrecked. That's pretty much most German divisions down the drain, because they can't challenge the Hellcat/Abrams anymore...
I'm not trying to say that they have too much in A, though, just that the notion that this deck is weak seems absurd to me. It's simply a competent, phase A centric armored division.

Oh.... Jeeez... let mi think about it for a second....
88s, marders, beute firefly, even sh**y puma or PzIII can take down M4(105), that's how you deal with it

 

[Herr_Robert]

M18s are maybe a little cheap, but if they were more expensive they really wouldnt be worth it they cant take any hit at all, and have no veterancy at all, AT guns of any deck can take them out. M18s arent meant to slug out at max range they are meant to drive full speed shoot a tank in the side and leave.That situation is easily countered. M18s are nice and at a 100 point price make it a really cool choice and brings life to a rather weak or expensive division ingame. Sure M12s are nice but 200 points is alot and having only 1 doesnt make a differance. The M18 is the only thing keeping 4th in the spotlight and making that deck worth playing and any nerf to the already very fragile and micro-intesnsive M18 will not just nerf the M18 but also the division as a whole.

Is it a little underpriced maybe but anymore and the unit starts getting into prices with vehicles that have much more armor then it and in this game speed is not a decisive enough factor to warrant a major price hike. So in the grand scheme of things the M18 is not a OP unit.

Hellcat has

Abysmal armor
No vet

Mediocre gun

its only redeeming quialitys are price and speed.

You want underpriced units go look at 2e 110 point sherman 105s cheaper M10s 60 point M8 greyhounds in support.

I think you underestimate the value of its spreed, and its armor values ingame are better than its real armor values. Another benefit -- that it shares with the M10 -- over Sherman 76s is that it has a higher rate of fire.

 

[Herr_Robert]

Oh.... Jeeez... let mi think about it for a second....
88s, marders, beute firefly, even sh**y puma or PzIII can take down M4(105), that's how you deal with it

Why not mention the Panzershreck while you are at it? Slow FlaK 88s and 1000m AFVs are not reliable counters against a M4(105).

 

[xXSunSlayerXx]

Oh.... Jeeez... let mi think about it for a second....
88s, marders, beute firefly, even sh**y puma or PzIII can take down M4(105), that's how you deal with it

Sigh...
Do you even look at the stats of the units you are throwing out? The Marder is only marginally more suited for this task than the PaK40 (slightly more resistant to suppression, same shitty penetration chance).

More importantly though, the Panzer III and Puma cannot even even realistically penetrate at max range (unless you consider 8% [Edit: wait, that's actually only 3%] a good chance), not to mention that they would have to drive through 200m of Hellcat fire before even getting off a shot.

That leaves a grand total of 4 out of 11 Axis divisions that can reliably deal with them in phase A: 16th, 716th, 12th, 21st (If we are generous, we can add the 3rd FS to the mix, so 5 I guess).
Everyone else has to rely on mistakes made by the 4th Armored player.

Again, the division is not overpowered or anything, but it is certainly one of the more potent ones in phase A on the Allies side.