The Heavy Crown [Book the Third on the House of Wessex]

[Asantahene]

I echo the misgivings of @JabberJock14 and @TheButterflyComposer here: seriously bad move. I wonder at the logic behind it. You’ve played and written up the Lady Agatha superbly though: what a lying, scheming harridan-there is no pity or honour there and she will, once more, be a major thorn in the side of the crown.

In my own game I realised, with horror, that I had completely forgotten to strip rebellious lords and ladies of their titles after a Osweald III won his war and wonder if this what happened to you?

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

I echo the misgivings of @JabberJock14 and @TheButterflyComposer here: seriously bad move. I wonder at the logic behind it. You’ve played and written up the Lady Agatha superbly though: what a lying, scheming harridan-there is no pity or honour there and she will, once more, be a major thorn in the side of the crown.

In my own game I realised, with horror, that I had completely forgotten to strip rebellious lords and ladies of their titles after a Osweald III won his war and wonder if this what happened to you?

It's getting to the point where it would take a complete bastard of a ruler to fix England. Forced imprionemnts, lots of assassinations, false trials, land seizure, the full works. An even harsher harrowing of the north and a purge on quite a few powerful families would also do the trick. But that's what it would take, excluding some act of God that killed loads and loads of characters randomly (and their family is bigger than yours so the plauge has a better chance of killing the royal house off than your rivals).

Funny how England was spared William the Conqeurer but now because of decisions made and fate and chance, someone is going to have to implement every one of his edicts to an even greater degree to get England under their control. Unless as mentioned before Mercia get the throne in which case all of these probablems for the most part go away (then the territories in France become the big headache to fix). This isn't so much a slight on the player or story generally but it's starting to really hurt how I'm viewing the Prince and the king if this is the best they could do. Eadgar too, to a degree but at least he had a best friend ruling Mercia who lasted a very long time, and York was a political and personal minefield he himself couldn't dismantle due to circumstance.

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

Hmm, I’d have sent her to the headsman if at all possible . The King is merciful indeed. A thorough interrogation, but the truth is a slippery thing. She now has her chance: my figurative money is on her eventually playing false again- against the House of Wessex, if not this King.

The headsman might have been a better idea for you are not wrong in your parlay. I'll speak more to it below, but it was half role-play and half idiocy on the players part (what a maroon! )

Such a sly creature. Honest to a fault, and then not. But if she had confessed to patricide, I guess she'd be out of a life...

She would indeed and Eadward had to ask the question. I was adamant about that even knowing that she would lie and say a flat no. All of her honesty (such as it was) prior to that led up to that final lie.

I appreciate the restraint by the author not to be gamey with this play through but...I must bang my head against the wall again about these in-universe rulers. Can no one properly pull off a plot or establish their power properly? In OTL, the kingdom had many problems such as this with rebellious vassals and such but...

Okay, lets get into the mind-set of the prince here (the king can be told some story later, at this point he is dependant on what his brother and advisors tell him). I have a problem. My realm is relatively rich and powerful but my family hangs onto the crown weakly, carried forward by momentum and a small group of loyal vassals. My family has very little in the way of personal wealth, levy or lands, and if we lose the Crown again we shall not get it back.

This problem is made worse by the fact that I have three powerful vassals in my realm, and they all historically have claims to the throne and serve as kingmakers. I cannot go to war without having good relations with at least two of them, and Mercia makes up around a third of my kingdom and most of my new Welsh conquests by itself. Normandy is less of a threat now but can cause chaos on both sides of the Channel and has again a long history of trying to take the throne. Mercia and York however are even more dangerous. Between the two of them they make up the entirety of the north and most of the west of the kingdom, collectively about half the realm of England. They are also ruled by close family members and the chances of them joining under one heir are high, since women currently rule both. And worst of all, they each could potentially claim the throne for themselves if they wanted to try for it.

Okay, so I have other issues like my brother's heir being a foreign little poop who won't answer any letters and frankly doesn't seem to give said poop about England. And even passing over that, my brother is dying in the worst way possible from a long drawn out illness which will stir up unrest and misrule for months or perhaps years until he eventually dies. My enemies are numerous, powerful and well connected, as we recently were reminded when my own wife was excommunicated basically just because the opposition said so. We have our own helpers in Rome but not many. All in all, our position is tenuous, fragile and under active threat from multiple sources. We are in desperate need of land and troops for our own private use, and we desperately need that familial connection between the northern duchies to vanish before anything comes of it.

Alright...that all being said, I now have the Duchess of York in prison. She's a heretic, everyone knows she is and what's more, I have free reign from the vassals and the Pope to do whatever I like to her. I can take her duchy title. I can take some land. I can leave her to die in a hole in the ground smaller than a broom cupboard and get to work on influencing the next duchess personally. I could even force her to marry into my family so we get her lands after she dies (I forget whether she's already married. If she is, I'll kill her husband and take the opinion penalty personally).

Instead, I make her convert back to the one true faith, removing what little hold I did have over her, and then release her with a slap on the wrist! This has got to be one of the biggest missed opportunities of the century in regards to English history! Even if after this she becomes the king and royal family's most trusted servant, she'll still be going after Mercia which will end with one or the other ruling the other's lands. Even if I'm hoping this will keep them occupied for the rest of my brother's life and ever after, this is a seriously bad thing to do in terms of the kingdom. I just...wow, these guys suck at ruling this kingdom. And we have to remember the old duke in all this too. Even if this current generation proves faithful, it merely provides a larger realm for the next generation to fight the house of Wessex with. At some point, Mercia especially is going to grow so large that either the House of Wessex takes it over or inherits it, or whomever is ruling Mercia takes over. Since everyone is primogeniture, there's little chance of the CKII realm divide coming to save you, in fact inheritance is only going to make this problem worse because either Mercia carries on in the current family or another ducal family will inherit, making the super duchy even bigger!

I recognise this sort of situation occurred in OTL as well but that was a hundred years later and it led to 200+ years of civil disputes that only ended after pretty much everyone who could have ruled England was dead and a welsh guy took over! England's being set up for a big fall, is what I'm saying, and the king and his brother are not combatting this well at all.

So...you are saying that you approve of the move?

Truly, I can only plead ignorance at this point. I must assume that my mindset during this time was that I thought I might reform her to our side. As you will see (and have already suspected) that does not work. In truth, the whole chain of events with Agatha was massively mishandled from the start so much of this is some attempt to explain it within story terms. You are not wrong to question the King in his decision but give Eadward some slack as he was only following orders. Your preferred remedy may come sooner than you think, though it may be too late in many respects.

Overall, a solid look at the situation! I've much to dig out from under at this point and so much of it was of my own making. It makes for poor gameplay but thankfully, hardly anyone is playing vanilla anymore. Not that any one of my works has ever been meant as some guide as I am historically a terrible player, but thankfully no will be following my mistakes into their own game.

Eadward's life seems to be filled with difficult conversations with women. That thought came to me as I read this update.

And rarely does he get the better of them.

An excellent point and one I did not consider. I suppose it has happened by chance, but it is true - I have made Eadward spend much time arguing with the women around him from a lover to his wife, and a Duchess here and there. That poor man!

Agatha gets off quite light here. I have to assume stripping a title from her was impossible because given the situation, and the bevy of reasons why it would be accepted by the nobility, it would be the move to make. Certainly would be cheaper than this fight in Wales.

Can't help but feel that this is a case where letting a wounded foe off will come back to bite them later when she comes back much stronger. Now, Wessex has avoided that in the past - none of the rebels from the last rebellion ever caused trouble again - but eventually that will come back to bite them. If this is truly by the king's order, he potentially leaves a big mess for his successor to clean up.

It was definitely Uhtræd's order and you are exactly right - a big mess to clean up. I might try and put this off on a very ill King and his weakening brain, but in truth it is all of my doing. I really do not recall the exact mindset when I played this particular part other than I really wanted this Agatha to stop causing trouble. I should have stripped titles which would have made a number of things better int he long run but I generally do not think about it due to the penalty. Here, it had already been found when I put her to prison. So...as I say, thank God no one is following this AAR to see how to play the game.

I echo the misgivings of @JabberJock14 and @TheButterflyComposer here: seriously bad move. I wonder at the logic behind it. You’ve played and written up the Lady Agatha superbly though: what a lying, scheming harridan-there is no pity or honour there and she will, once more, be a major thorn in the side of the crown.

In my own game I realised, with horror, that I had completely forgotten to strip rebellious lords and ladies of their titles after a Osweald III won his war and wonder if this what happened to you?

It was not as though I forgot as much as I generally just don't try to do it because of the possibility that another war may break out. I think perhaps due to the fragility of the King at this point in the game, I was reluctant to push more and that was a grave error. (Again - no one follow this game play tactic...it is not recommended!)

As for Agatha, however, I am pleased that you liked the characterization of her. I wanted to tread a fine line between her being a little batty and still having some faculties left. A year in a medieval dungeon will have its effects and she was already prone to some wild behavior. Let's see what happens when she gets out.

It's getting to the point where it would take a complete bastard of a ruler to fix England. Forced imprionemnts, lots of assassinations, false trials, land seizure, the full works. An even harsher harrowing of the north and a purge on quite a few powerful families would also do the trick. But that's what it would take, excluding some act of God that killed loads and loads of characters randomly (and their family is bigger than yours so the plauge has a better chance of killing the royal house off than your rivals).

Funny how England was spared William the Conqeurer but now because of decisions made and fate and chance, someone is going to have to implement every one of his edicts to an even greater degree to get England under their control. Unless as mentioned before Mercia get the throne in which case all of these probablems for the most part go away (then the territories in France become the big headache to fix). This isn't so much a slight on the player or story generally but it's starting to really hurt how I'm viewing the Prince and the king if this is the best they could do. Eadgar too, to a degree but at least he had a best friend ruling Mercia who lasted a very long time, and York was a political and personal minefield he himself couldn't dismantle due to circumstance.

It is a good thing that the King is so just, otherwise you might find yourself in an oubliette! How dare you speak such treasonous words? Mayhap you take faith with these Lollards as well!

As suggested above, your remedy may find its way sooner than you think (at least somewhat.) And I appreciate the irony you mention because it holds a great deal of truth. The whole point of this AAR in general was to keep William from his conquering and hold a Wessex King on the throne and look what good it has done for England? Maybe he should have won out. And yet, without this exercise, we would not have this fine (I hope) story to follow, warts and all.


To all - I assumed that this action might have varied reactions, and nearly all in the negative. I blame no one but myself and once again suggest that no one ever follow my gameplay tactics. That being said, without this detour, we would not get what comes after which is rather juicy (to me, at least.) And also sets up some further plays down the road which prove to be pretty important in the grand scheme of the story. All I can say is, look to the forest and not the trees because this episode is merely of a piece for something much larger coming up. I do hope it works. And @TheButterflyComposer, if you applaud me for not being gamey then I may disappoint you soon. One had to do something to serve the story and dig themselves out of this hole.

The next scene will follow and keeps us moving along the path I suggest above...another piece. My plan is this one today and then another on Easter Sunday which is fitting for we will see Brother Nylan once again on that day. I remain truly thankful for all of your amazing comments and how deeply you read the work. I love the look at both the politics of the time as well as the interaction between the players. I am in the midst of writing perhaps the most important part of this entire work and to know that you will be there ready to discuss it keeps me thrilled to push ahead and make it right. I cannot thank you enough!

 

[coz1]

The Heavy Crown​

​

Gainsborough, England – June 1133​

Beorhtmaer was thankful that he knew well the guard on duty outside of the King’s private chambers for it meant that he might have no trouble slipping past so he may see his brother. With a nod, the Prince offered a slight knock before entering the anti-chamber just beyond the King’s room. Within the Lady Maud and some few other ladies rested on soft pallets arrayed around the room and Maud was quick in her rise to greet him.

“My Lord Prince...is there some problem?” she asked with concern.

“Nay, my Lady,” Beorhtmaer turned his head towards the door beyond where his brother rested, “Is the King awake?”

Maud was unsure, “I could not say. Though it be early still in the evening, His Grace does wander in and out of slumber. Does the Prince Regent return from York? I be sure that the King would wish to speak with him.”

“My brother Eadward does remain to the north at the now, my Lady...” Beorhtmaer looked back to her with a serious eye, “...and I would have some wish to speak with the King myself.”

The Lady was conflicted, “It is highly irregular, my Lord Prince...only the Prince Regent and the monk see to the King at this time.”

Beorhtmaer tried to offer a kinder face, “As well as his confessor, I be certain. And my Lady, allow me to remind you…that be mine own brother beyond that door. I would see to his health while the Prince Regent is away.”

Without waiting for a further reply, Beorhtmaer moved past her as she answered, “I be not certain that he is awake, my Lord Prince. It is poor to disturb his slumber as His Grace does require his rest.”

The youngest brother of Wessex turned back long enough to smile once more, “If I know the King, he will wish news of his war. I shall not tarry long.”

With that, he moved into his brother’s dark room and was immediately stopped by the King’s valet who sprang from some blankets at the foot of Uhtræd’s bed, “My Lord Prince...”

“Leave us,” Beorhtmaer was quick to answer as he lit a candle and pulled a stool beside the bed.

Uhtræd rustled around slightly under the sheets before turning his head slowly, “Beo? Is that you?”

The valet stayed positioned by the door, “Your Grace...I do not know that your brother should be here at the now. You are to rest, sire.”

“You heard him...” Uhtræd found some strength to his voice as he answered the valet, “...leave us.”

As the flustered valet did as told, the King pulled a crippled hand from under the sheet to find his brother, “I was not asleep, as much as I may wish it. Under this mask, the waking hours do not seem so much different than those of slumber. I would wish the company. But where is Eadward?”

“Still to York seeing after the rehabilitation of your Duchess there,” Beorhtmaer answered him as he took the hand, “I may not see it as a wise move, but if that be his wish.”

Uhtræd offered a disappointed tone, “Beo...it does no good to question our brother as he does all in my name. It was my choice to find love once more for this Agatha of York, just as it was to see your sons betrothed and leading at battle. You place too much on his head when if ire is wished, it should be pointed to me.”

“Spent much time complaining about my various irritations, has he?” Beorhtmaer asked as he sat back.

“Nay brother...” Uhtræd reached out further to pull the hand closer, “...I would hear it in your voice. This be not a time for we three to find calumny. Eadward needs you just as much as I and to sulk and accuse does no favors towards any of us.”

Beorhtmaer held close even though he still had misgivings, “He acts as though he rules on his own.”

The King offered a slight smile, “Because I do wish it. A body does not move without a strong head and Eadward is the one that we have at the now. Please do not question it.”

“If that be your wish,” the Prince gave nod, “I shall try to find more kindness.”

“Good,” Uhtræd answered and found a stronger smile, “And now that you be with me, tell of what happens to the west? How do those boys of yours? Proud warriors and surely smiting any enemy before them, yes?”

“We had hoped to find some assistance from the King of Scots, but rebellion once more breaks out there,” Beorhtmaer replied as he pulled the stool a little closer, “So it was good to see the men of the Saxon Band show when they did.”

Uhtræd allowed a slight nod, “Yes...I did hear that this Earl sought his own help. Well on you for finding the numbers.”

“And to answer to you...” Beorhtmaer could not help but smile, “...Thurfrith and Wihtræd won a resounding victory to Llandaff.”

​

“I knew that they would,” the King returned the smile, “Your concerns are well founded, brother, but you have trained them up so well and I have every faith in their abilities. The realm will need them in the years to come just as it will need you.”

“You did have some hand in their training as well, brother,” Beorhtmaer suggested.

Uhtræd rested his head back to his pillow as he turned his face to the ceiling, “And yet they be your sons...from your line. It was your training that place them here at the now. Mayhap I wished to answer for mine own lack as mine be so far away from me.”

Beorhtmaer looked to the King with sadness, “Still no word from Meissen?”

“None,” Uhtræd answered quickly before turning his head back to his brother, “Yet tell me more of the battles. You may know that such would lift my spirits well.”

“I know that you may wish to be in them,” Beorhtmaer laughed, “Thank God that you were not. Yet our force remains strong. Thurfrith sent an army to follow the defeated forces of Glamorgan and they have fought a series of battles over these past two months. From Monmouth to Hereford, to Evesham and then Coventry...victories all. I would not deny the fighting spirit of these men of Wales, for they have much horse and more pride, but it should only be a matter of time.”

Uhtræd rested his head once more, “That is grand to hear.”

“Indeed, brother...” Beorhtmaer offered a grin, “...even in your infirmity, your legend speaks on. You remain our bold King and all efforts are to continue such tradition.”

“Hmm...” Uhtræd kept still in his thoughts, “...they have the pride of it, and not I. But proud am I of their work. Where be your sons at the now?”

“They both be to Cardiff to put that place at siege,” Beorhtmaer answered with surety.

​

Uhtræd gave out a relieved sigh, “Then the war will be over soon.”

“A great victory and Wales will finally be all to you...Your Grace,” Beorhtmaer suggested with concern remaining in his voice, “...And yet, the real war has yet to begin.”

“I think to know it well,” Uhtræd reached out once more and with a clumsy hand found his brother’s face, “And you come here this day to speak to me about more than just our victorious soldiers.”

“I do,” the younger brother answered quickly.

Uhtræd felt at the contours of Beo’s face from his beard to his nose and finally to his eyes, “I know that you wish the land, and I do promise you Beo...it will be. I struggle at the now as I have many things to plan for, but please know that you do not remain outside of my thoughts. I do not know exactly what I must do, but it is clear that some hard decisions are in front of me. I have always asked of you for your patience, and I do beg apology for it has been too long in coming. Allow me to find the right course for the future...”

“The future is your son of Meissen, brother,” Beorhtmaer interrupted him, “Whether liked or no, he would be King and I would not like to see me or mine thrust into such a place without some protection. Do you see my plight?”

The King pulled his hand back down to rest at Beorhtmaer’s chin and held as firmly as he might, “If it be my son, then he would need your worth far more than I or Eadward ever has!”

“And yet...you speak of if?” Beorhtmaer was confused.

Uhtræd dropped his hand with frustration, “It pains me to say that I do not know what will happen. This is my last struggle. Though I never desired this seat, I did take it up. It was our father’s wish and I have tried to remain true. As long as I have breath in my body, I will continue to do so, even if I must needs have our brother perform most of the roles at the now. I have a great choice before me and I do not know what I should do.”

“Do you think to put your son aside?” Beorhtmaer asked with some shock.

“I do not know!” Uhtræd answered with irritation.

“Brother,” Beorhtmaer moved close, “There is the law that you yourself have championed.”

Uhtræd kept his head pointed towards the ceiling in his thought, “I know it well...and yet...Oscytel does not answer. I cannot leave this world without the knowledge that I have kept protection for England. I must find my choice and die by it.”

“I do not have your worries, brother, and I am sorry to see this find you,” Beorhtmaer held tightly to his hand.

The King happily accepted the touch even in his pain as he smiled, “And I am sorry that we have had some troubles over the years, Beo. You must know that I love you well and I would not see your plight offended more in the future. I will do what I can with the time that I have left to me and hope that I might make the right choices. I wish my son well, as I do you and Eadward...our sisters...our House. I say it to you again…this be my final struggle. I will fight it out as I have always done and then I will be gone.”

Beorhtmaer offered a sad eye, “I do not envy you.”

“Nor should you,” Uhtræd replied with a tight grip still, “But you will be well when I am gone, Beo. That is my promise to you.”

 

[Idhrendur]

I do sympathize for Uhtræd. While he has made some very poor decisions, he's also been thrust into a very hard position, and most people would make bad decisions if that sat in his seat.

And regarding some of your previous replies, I would like to imagine that end the end this has been a better England for the common Saxon than it was in our world after 1066. Of course, I'm getting my perspective from Ivanhoe and other such works, so it may be quite wrong.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

So...you are saying that you approve of the move?

Well there is a certain degree of merit in having an AAR where most of the main cast make horrible mistakes most of the time. At some point though, especially in this time period where you might be removed at any time by a dagger or executioner or rebellion, reality must ensue and consequences met. So long as that's put in, I don't really have an issue with the writing of the characters, I just rail at their incompetence because I wish them to do better.

Truly, I can only plead ignorance at this point. I must assume that my mindset during this time was that I thought I might reform her to our side. As you will see (and have already suspected) that does not work. In truth, the whole chain of events with Agatha was massively mishandled from the start so much of this is some attempt to explain it within story terms. You are not wrong to question the King in his decision but give Eadward some slack as he was only following orders. Your preferred remedy may come sooner than you think, though it may be too late in many respects.

Overall, a solid look at the situation! I've much to dig out from under at this point and so much of it was of my own making. It makes for poor gameplay but thankfully, hardly anyone is playing vanilla anymore. Not that any one of my works has ever been meant as some guide as I am historically a terrible player, but thankfully no will be following my mistakes into their own game.

Even with CKII's often weird relationship system, releasing her with a repentance with the aim of improving relations is naive. It helps in the long run with ensuring the county remains proper orthodox and her kids don't become religious heretics as well but since that family is already a problem for reasons outside of religion you've sort of removed a barrel of gunpowder that was rolling towards a burning building, not put out the fire itself.
The king needs to be ignored or removed if this is what he's going to insist on. Mercy at this point is idiotic. He needs to do two things. One, secure the succession finally and unquestionably in some way, either by declaring his son will be heir or picking someone else now and endorsing them publically. Two, after doing that he needs to die quickly before he makes any more stupid mistakes and stains his reputation. Whomever his heir is, they'll have hard enough a job as it is without being stuck with the image of a increasingly mad and weak king hovering over them.

I don't know about bad playing but this is a pretty bad situation. I came up with various ways of getting around it with these characters in this story, going off what you had written but honestly most require DLC. The easiest way of course would have been for the king to seduce the duchess of Mercia at the earliest opportunity, which could have been written in as an (earlier) version of the Lady Maud thing. Getting her in love and pregnant with a bastard heir that could be legitimised by both sides would have been a fantastic and very medieval way of getting around all this. The church would absolutely despise it but hey, we do need drama in a story don't we?

The vanilla ways of doing it have been outlined above but I'll try to think of other ways. I'd love a copy of this save file and the opportunity to try and fix everything Blackadder style with a courtier trying desperately to hold the realm together in a world full of (not so much idiotic but rather mad) nobles. Biffo the steward to the rescue!

It is a good thing that the King is so just, otherwise you might find yourself in an oubliette! How dare you speak such treasonous words? Mayhap you take faith with these Lollards as well!

Please, with this king I can denounce him in public, plot to usurp his son, excommunicate his sister in law for no reason, murder my own father and be a heretic in prison and at his mercy and get away with everything by saying sorry (just to the last one)!

As suggested above, your remedy may find its way sooner than you think (at least somewhat.) And I appreciate the irony you mention because it holds a great deal of truth. The whole point of this AAR in general was to keep William from his conquering and hold a Wessex King on the throne and look what good it has done for England? Maybe he should have won out. And yet, without this exercise, we would not have this fine (I hope) story to follow, warts and all.

Well exactly, see the first point above. The north of England is certainly better off without William. It wasn't genocidal wiped out and instead is the wealthiest, safest and most powerful area of the kingdom united under one family and two rulers. They've done very well for themselves. For the welsh, its also not as bad as it was under the Normans. Saxon rulers from just over the border in Mercia are much better than French nobles, not least of which because the Mercians have better things to do than oppress the welsh being very rich and powerful in their own right. The Norman rulers of wales just had welsh possessions so naturally had to concentrate on them, to the horror of the natives.

The south is not doing as well. Frequent invasions, Normans still holding prize land, the King very weak, the North and Normandy very strong...they've been ousted out of position in matters of importance in England. If anybody has it bad though, its probably the Normans themselves. They control their own duchy, which they eventually lost OTL but live knowing that they are basically in charge of English possessions in France (a very dissipated lot spread out over a very large former kingdom) and right next to a very powerful empire England has no interest in fighting. If the emperor wants some French or Norman land, the Normans know the English wont fight them for it. They have no allies, no friends and lots of enemies and are hated at home and abroad. They're in a terrible place right now.

And @TheButterflyComposer, if you applaud me for not being gamey then I may disappoint you soon. One had to do something to serve the story and dig themselves out of this hole.

I love how you keep having to tell Beo that there's no chance of him getting any land even after the king threw away one chance at getting some really important land back and has won another welsh county in war. If he doesn't end up warring with the new king, whoever he is, it'll only be because he was bribed with land. All any other faction has to do once the king is dead is promise him a county or two for him to seriously consider joining them instead. And I really cant blame him.

 

[Asantahene]

A poignant chapter-there have been many of these but the king's words towards the end had me rather moved. He seems so sad but yet determined to make things right. This thing with his son is a real bitch-I am not sure what the game will do when Uhtraed dies but do your words suggest you might try and change to Elective before the king passes?

 

[JabberJock14]

Uhtræd's indecision is a problem. At this point, the solution is to simply send someone to his son and lay out the situation. Then there can be little doubt on where Oscytel stands. I'd say Eadward, but he's too busy actually running the kingdom. So perhaps Beo.

Of course Beo grows more unsettled. I still suspect his side will just end up on the opposite one of Eadward, just because they don't seem to like each other. Misplaced anger in my book - he may be jealous of Eadward "squandering" a wife and life Beo desires, but Eadward is not the one who has passed him over for land (and continues to do so).

Please, with this king I can denounce him in public, plot to usurp his son, excommunicate his sister in law for no reason, murder my own father and be a heretic in prison and at his mercy and get away with everything by saying sorry (just to the last one)!

I burst out laughing when I read the above. Uhtræd has been far too forgiving (though he is unaware of the murder part of Agatha's resume).

 

[stnylan]

Uhtræd becomes more and more impotent. In effect here he is forced to beg that Beo will not stir up trouble as regards to Eadward. Oh he has some arguments, but not really the strength to properly make them, so it becomes a heart-felt plea.

Plus, he doesn't know what to do.

He knows all too well first-hand the difficulty of assuming the Kingship having spent many years away in a foreign land, how much harder to do so when one is, to all intents and purposes, a foreigner. His indecision seems to me to be another symptom of his infirmity. Uhtræd was named "The Bold", but that fire seems well and truly spent.

 

[Bullfilter]

I know you have talked about game play errors etc, and others of your ‘secret council’ of advisors () have, ah, assisted you in your frank self-examination! Fortunately, I still don’t know enough about the game to have found any of these choices obviously bad except in retrospect when explained by the more learned.

But I take the story as it is I believe intended and so well delivered: as a narrative that uses the situation presented by the game to help relate an alternate reality. And I think the critics of certain courses approach it the same way - in character and about the characters. My own early bias against Agatha and suggestion that the headsman should have been offered another chance to practice was entirely character-driven. But redemption is as powerful a story as revenge or stern justice and also has many examples in the historical record and literary canon.

And here I will make the point I intended: what may seem like gameplay errors - or at least clear opportunities missed - I could categorise as very good narrative choices: whether made by accident or no. And for a narrative AAR, that may overmatch the logical play choice. And takes away some of the bias towards a player guiding a dynasty in many incarnations over the generations, applying a logical mind, with almost full information to decisions in the light of long term goals. How often does that happen in history, in this or any other period!?

Far more realistic for clever people to sometimes do illogical things, or not take a course of action clearly to their benefit through the lack of knowledge, timing, gumption or ruthlessness, in the hope something good may happen or unpleasantness is avoided. Far more “realistic”. The narrative fun is then telling the story that arises. Which you do so very well.

I think Uhtraed’s and Eadward’s struggles at this time come across as authentic and human in their success, miscalculation, regret, doubt and hope. To a certain extent, they are men who stand on a burning deck ... not every decision they make is going to be perfect, but at least they are making them. And everyone prefers a tale of tragedy, full of agonised ‘if onlys’, to a linear march to certain world domination.

In that context, I very much look forward to the coming passages - I feel time is about to compress for our Bold King - before it ends, leaving his triumphs and failures for the living to deal with. Just as his father did for him. We’ll get to see whether the head that next wears the crown is bowed down with the weight, or is supported by a neck made strong by necessity. I can’t wait to see how it transpires!

 

[Specialist290]

I pretty much have to second @Bullfilter above, even though I agree with nearly all of what @TheButterflyComposer says from a gameplay perspective. Don't worry too much about perfect play, so long as the narrative is consistent and the character's motivations make sense in-story. After all, even great men have made highly questionable decisions from time to time, and we often have the benefit of hindsight and access to information hidden beyond the "fog of war."

As for the story itself, I'm very much starting to get the impression that control is gradually slipping through Uhtraed and Eadward's fingers, despite their best efforts to keep hold of the situation.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

This is a pretty good discussion so I'd like to carry it on. First off, the big problem with the king and council right now:

I burst out laughing when I read the above. Uhtræd has been far too forgiving (though he is unaware of the murder part of Agatha's resume).

From everything that we've seen the king (and I'll include Eadward here too because he's just as guilty) do in regards to judgement, rulership and dealing with vassals generally has been being 'nice', forgiving and conservative. Which in a realm like England at this time, is not what the country really needs. It keeps the peace with so many factions at play but doesn't solve the problems of them either. So we get humorous situations I described, where you can well imagine someone being ridiculously offensive or murderous towards the royal family, with everyone knowing they are as guilty as sin, and the king letting them off. It's not unheard of among Saxon kings (in fact it happened quite a lot, hence the Norman Conquest in fact) but it is something that needs to be addressed in universe. These are not strong rulers, and weak rulers surrounded by strong vassals get bullied/murdered by them. I can see the southern lords being a bit more passive and respectful of the king even when he's ill, they aren't that much stronger than Wessex themselves. But Mercia? Their representatives or the duchess herself should be at court, right now, dictating what's going on, or asking for special favours, or at least trying to influence affairs from afar. That's what they were doing with the last king, and now they're in an even stronger position. So where are they? If they or their representatives aren't at court at all, that's even worse for England because it means Mercia doesn't care what the Crown is doing and has decide that they are their own sovereign state. But even then, the duchess herself should have been with Edward negotiating her cousin's 'deal' to get out of prison. She has as much to gain as the Crown does and there's no way, none at all, that she'd have just left the decision of what happens to York to the house of Wessex with no input from her.

I feel like the king is both too weak and yet way too strong in-universe, from what I've read.

Uhtræd's indecision is a problem. At this point, the solution is to simply send someone to his son and lay out the situation. Then there can be little doubt on where Oscytel stands. I'd say Eadward, but he's too busy actually running the kingdom. So perhaps Beo.

Uhtræd becomes more and more impotent. In effect here he is forced to beg that Beo will not stir up trouble as regards to Eadward. Oh he has some arguments, but not really the strength to properly make them, so it becomes a heart-felt plea.

Plus, he doesn't know what to do.

He knows all too well first-hand the difficulty of assuming the Kingship having spent many years away in a foreign land, how much harder to do so when one is, to all intents and purposes, a foreigner. His indecision seems to me to be another symptom of his infirmity. Uhtræd was named "The Bold", but that fire seems well and truly spent.

Yes, they probably should send some housecarls at this point, as part of a big diplomatic party. Give the boy no chance of refusal and force yourself into his hall. Then drag him back with a big bribe or force if you have to. Whatever it takes to get him to England. Or get him to write a treatise renouncing the throne and his family because at this point and in this period I think that's the far more likely option. Monarchy in England, especially this new centralised stuff, isn't that stable and its going to be hard enough to keep it in the same family, let alone giving it to a foreigner who cannot possibly speak English (whatever version is being used in England right now) and seems to have no interest in the kingdom whatsoever.

I know you have talked about game play errors etc, and others of your ‘secret council’ of advisors () have, ah, assisted you in your frank self-examination! Fortunately, I still don’t know enough about the game to have found any of these choices obviously bad except in retrospect when explained by the more learned.

But I take the story as it is I believe intended and so well delivered: as a narrative that uses the situation presented by the game to help relate an alternate reality. And I think the critics of certain courses approach it the same way - in character and about the characters.

But of course, I'm just cautious about how to portray it properly because of how delicate the situation is. The two brothers are nowhere near as secure in their position as they seem to think and have been behaving like as of late. I sort of want reality to hit them like a bus in the near future, that actually, they don't really have all that much control over England in practical terms and if their family unit splinters any further (which it looks like it will over the succession and Beo's future prospects), someone is surely going to take advantage. Indeed, someone should already be taking advantage somewhere.

My own early bias against Agatha and suggestion that the headsman should have been offered another chance to practice was entirely character-driven. But redemption is as powerful a story as revenge or stern justice and also has many examples in the historical record and literary canon.

She seems to be a villainess who could one day be competent and calculating but is right now too ambitious and eager (as well as socially awkward) to achieve what she wants without alienating everyone. She's dangerous because she could be very unpredictable and is in a dangerous area, and has the potential to have good relations with a powerful and large power within England.

...she's basically the personification (in some ways) or North Korea.

And here I will make the point I intended: what may seem like gameplay errors - or at least clear opportunities missed - I could categorise as very good narrative choices: whether made by accident or no. And for a narrative AAR, that may overmatch the logical play choice. And takes away some of the bias towards a player guiding a dynasty in many incarnations over the generations, applying a logical mind, with almost full information to decisions in the light of long term goals. How often does that happen in history, in this or any other period!?

Far more realistic for clever people to sometimes do illogical things, or not take a course of action clearly to their benefit through the lack of knowledge, timing, gumption or ruthlessness, in the hope something good may happen or unpleasantness is avoided. Far more “realistic”. The narrative fun is then telling the story that arises. Which you do so very well.

I think Uhtraed’s and Eadward’s struggles at this time come across as authentic and human in their success, miscalculation, regret, doubt and hope. To a certain extent, they are men who stand on a burning deck ... not every decision they make is going to be perfect, but at least they are making them. And everyone prefers a tale of tragedy, full of agonised ‘if onlys’, to a linear march to certain world domination.

In that context, I very much look forward to the coming passages - I feel time is about to compress for our Bold King - before it ends, leaving his triumphs and failures for the living to deal with. Just as his father did for him. We’ll get to see whether the head that next wears the crown is bowed down with the weight, or is supported by a neck made strong by necessity. I can’t wait to see how it transpires!

Indeed, and it is true. When I played with the aim of being a competent, intelligent and kind character, the game became very difficult indeed to play. Mistakes as it were, proved unavoidable, the vassal system will prey upon kind and forgiving behaviour like wolves onto a wounded lamb, and you can see how it would wear down a character and place them in impossible circumstances. But...reality ensues and hat must be brought up. The king being infirm and even nicer than usual when he really shouldn't be has to be talked about at the very least, even if he gets away with it. And he might. Vassals throughout history have done stupid stuff too, like not rebelling against weak rulers because they are kind to them . Not very often of course but it happened. I'm just concerned that this trilogy associated and focused on the house of Wessex...has basically doomed them and the ending will be of them all strung up dead, or forgotten to history, a footnote in someone else's rise to power. Right now, that's the most likely scenarios I can see happening and I'm not sure whether Coz wishes it to go that way. If not, then something in-universe England has to change to explain why the game England (because narrative trumps what the game shows) remains in the hands of the current royals.

I pretty much have to second @Bullfilter above, even though I agree with nearly all of what @TheButterflyComposer says from a gameplay perspective. Don't worry too much about perfect play, so long as the narrative is consistent and the character's motivations make sense in-story. After all, even great men have made highly questionable decisions from time to time, and we often have the benefit of hindsight and access to information hidden beyond the "fog of war."

As for the story itself, I'm very much starting to get the impression that control is gradually slipping through Uhtraed and Eadward's fingers, despite their best efforts to keep hold of the situation.

I would be interested in a narrative where the two bodged the job to such a degree that the new ruler of the house of Wessex has to basically start from scratch even if they are king. Tear down the duchy system and replace all the old noble lands with new ones and be labelled a tyrant in the process but privately and perhaps with the benefit of hindsight actually be quite a good ruler that set England up to be a strong, stable and centralised realm throughout the rest of the medieval period.

Overall, I suppose I'm just tense about the noose that the two seem to be tying round their necks (so they can at least hang together) and the current (seeming) lack of consequence. Is this a build up for a great upheaval or civil war? Lots and lots of behind the scenes espionage and plotting as various factions(seeing the incoming crisis)) attempt to join and boost sides of the battle for the Crown? I don't know. I have faith in the writing ability of the author. I just wanted to expand upon how messed up the political, economic and social aspects of England are right now under the current system. Something drastic is going to happen soon outside of the king's death.

 

[Bullfilter]

This is a pretty good discussion so I'd like to carry it on. First off, the big problem with the king and council right now:



From everything that we've seen the king (and I'll include Eadward here too because he's just as guilty) do in regards to judgement, rulership and dealing with vassals generally has been being 'nice', forgiving and conservative. Which in a realm like England at this time, is not what the country really needs. It keeps the peace with so many factions at play but doesn't solve the problems of them either. So we get humorous situations I described, where you can well imagine someone being ridiculously offensive or murderous towards the royal family, with everyone knowing they are as guilty as sin, and the king letting them off. It's not unheard of among Saxon kings (in fact it happened quite a lot, hence the Norman Conquest in fact) but it is something that needs to be addressed in universe. These are not strong rulers, and weak rulers surrounded by strong vassals get bullied/murdered by them. I can see the southern lords being a bit more passive and respectful of the king even when he's ill, they aren't that much stronger than Wessex themselves. But Mercia? Their representatives or the duchess herself should be at court, right now, dictating what's going on, or asking for special favours, or at least trying to influence affairs from afar. That's what they were doing with the last king, and now they're in an even stronger position. So where are they? If they or their representatives aren't at court at all, that's even worse for England because it means Mercia doesn't care what the Crown is doing and has decide that they are their own sovereign state. But even then, the duchess herself should have been with Edward negotiating her cousin's 'deal' to get out of prison. She has as much to gain as the Crown does and there's no way, none at all, that she'd have just left the decision of what happens to York to the house of Wessex with no input from her.

I feel like the king is both too weak and yet way too strong in-universe, from what I've read.





Yes, they probably should send some housecarls at this point, as part of a big diplomatic party. Give the boy no chance of refusal and force yourself into his hall. Then drag him back with a big bribe or force if you have to. Whatever it takes to get him to England. Or get him to write a treatise renouncing the throne and his family because at this point and in this period I think that's the far more likely option. Monarchy in England, especially this new centralised stuff, isn't that stable and its going to be hard enough to keep it in the same family, let alone giving it to a foreigner who cannot possibly speak English (whatever version is being used in England right now) and seems to have no interest in the kingdom whatsoever.





But of course, I'm just cautious about how to portray it properly because of how delicate the situation is. The two brothers are nowhere near as secure in their position as they seem to think and have been behaving like as of late. I sort of want reality to hit them like a bus in the near future, that actually, they don't really have all that much control over England in practical terms and if their family unit splinters any further (which it looks like it will over the succession and Beo's future prospects), someone is surely going to take advantage. Indeed, someone should already be taking advantage somewhere.



She seems to be a villainess who could one day be competent and calculating but is right now too ambitious and eager (as well as socially awkward) to achieve what she wants without alienating everyone. She's dangerous because she could be very unpredictable and is in a dangerous area, and has the potential to have good relations with a powerful and large power within England.

...she's basically the personification (in some ways) or North Korea.





Indeed, and it is true. When I played with the aim of being a competent, intelligent and kind character, the game became very difficult indeed to play. Mistakes as it were, proved unavoidable, the vassal system will prey upon kind and forgiving behaviour like wolves onto a wounded lamb, and you can see how it would wear down a character and place them in impossible circumstances. But...reality ensues and hat must be brought up. The king being infirm and even nicer than usual when he really shouldn't be has to be talked about at the very least, even if he gets away with it. And he might. Vassals throughout history have done stupid stuff too, like not rebelling against weak rulers because they are kind to them . Not very often of course but it happened. I'm just concerned that this trilogy associated and focused on the house of Wessex...has basically doomed them and the ending will be of them all strung up dead, or forgotten to history, a footnote in someone else's rise to power. Right now, that's the most likely scenarios I can see happening and I'm not sure whether Coz wishes it to go that way. If not, then something in-universe England has to change to explain why the game England (because narrative trumps what the game shows) remains in the hands of the current royals.



I would be interested in a narrative where the two bodged the job to such a degree that the new ruler of the house of Wessex has to basically start from scratch even if they are king. Tear down the duchy system and replace all the old noble lands with new ones and be labelled a tyrant in the process but privately and perhaps with the benefit of hindsight actually be quite a good ruler that set England up to be a strong, stable and centralised realm throughout the rest of the medieval period.

Overall, I suppose I'm just tense about the noose that the two seem to be tying round their necks (so they can at least hang together) and the current (seeming) lack of consequence. Is this a build up for a great upheaval or civil war? Lots and lots of behind the scenes espionage and plotting as various factions(seeing the incoming crisis)) attempt to join and boost sides of the battle for the Crown? I don't know. I have faith in the writing ability of the author. I just wanted to expand upon how messed up the political, economic and social aspects of England are right now under the current system. Something drastic is going to happen soon outside of the king's death.

Great comments as always TBC. In essence, I guess I’m saying I’m glad for narrative purposes that the way the game has transpired provides such excellent material for robust in-character discussion. It’s like a version of the kind of conversations you can imagine going on around the strategy tables and hearths of the realm as they ponder the same issues. With views ranging from encouraging mercy and forgiveness to the liberal application of cold hard steel - or the garrotte! As previously stated, in this matter I would have had her head off and, when advised soundly to do so, lands seized for the royal demesne and something at last for Beo.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Great comments as always TBC. In essence, I guess I’m saying I’m glad for narrative purposes that the way the game has transpired provides such excellent material for robust in-character discussion. It’s like a version of the kind of conversations you can imagine going on around the strategy tables and hearths of the realm as they ponder the same issues. With views ranging from encouraging mercy and forgiveness to the liberal application of cold hard steel - or the garrotte! As previously stated, in this matter I would have had her head off and, when advised soundly to do so, lands seized for the royal demesne and something at last for Beo.

Exactly, especially because the game is designed so you can't play it 'perfectly', which this case demonstrated. Even if we did the smartest thing and got some land, we can only get so much. One county, one duchy title, one kingdom title etc. So we can't get rid of York. We can defang her a bit and keep her in prison till she des, which I still think is a pretty good result, but we can't get rid of the issue entirely in one action. This I like for balance and realism. Of course, if you want to go historical and tyrannical (ingame) you can go further and take everything and execute her too. But people will ate you for it, especially the new duke if they are related. It's ripe for decisions, roleplaying and consequence based gameplay.

 

[Nikolai]

Really, really interesting discussions goong on here nowc

 

[coz1]

Fb-fb:

I do sympathize for Uhtræd. While he has made some very poor decisions, he's also been thrust into a very hard position, and most people would make bad decisions if that sat in his seat.

And regarding some of your previous replies, I would like to imagine that end the end this has been a better England for the common Saxon than it was in our world after 1066. Of course, I'm getting my perspective from Ivanhoe and other such works, so it may be quite wrong.

Indeed, I think Uhtræd has made some fairly good decisions along with some bad. The wars to take all of Wales, his building projects...and the treasury is left full. He's not been so miserly as Henry VII but certainly did not spend it all. As for the Saxons, you are right. I was really joking above. Even with some mistakes made by myself as the player, the truth is Norman England does not exist and thus Saxon culture (read now as a different English than RL) is allowed to thrive. I don't spend much time on it (and perhaps I should) but rather leave it in the background.

Well there is a certain degree of merit in having an AAR where most of the main cast make horrible mistakes most of the time. At some point though, especially in this time period where you might be removed at any time by a dagger or executioner or rebellion, reality must ensue and consequences met. So long as that's put in, I don't really have an issue with the writing of the characters, I just rail at their incompetence because I wish them to do better.



Even with CKII's often weird relationship system, releasing her with a repentance with the aim of improving relations is naive. It helps in the long run with ensuring the county remains proper orthodox and her kids don't become religious heretics as well but since that family is already a problem for reasons outside of religion you've sort of removed a barrel of gunpowder that was rolling towards a burning building, not put out the fire itself.
The king needs to be ignored or removed if this is what he's going to insist on. Mercy at this point is idiotic. He needs to do two things. One, secure the succession finally and unquestionably in some way, either by declaring his son will be heir or picking someone else now and endorsing them publically. Two, after doing that he needs to die quickly before he makes any more stupid mistakes and stains his reputation. Whomever his heir is, they'll have hard enough a job as it is without being stuck with the image of a increasingly mad and weak king hovering over them.

I don't know about bad playing but this is a pretty bad situation. I came up with various ways of getting around it with these characters in this story, going off what you had written but honestly most require DLC. The easiest way of course would have been for the king to seduce the duchess of Mercia at the earliest opportunity, which could have been written in as an (earlier) version of the Lady Maud thing. Getting her in love and pregnant with a bastard heir that could be legitimised by both sides would have been a fantastic and very medieval way of getting around all this. The church would absolutely despise it but hey, we do need drama in a story don't we?

The vanilla ways of doing it have been outlined above but I'll try to think of other ways. I'd love a copy of this save file and the opportunity to try and fix everything Blackadder style with a courtier trying desperately to hold the realm together in a world full of (not so much idiotic but rather mad) nobles. Biffo the steward to the rescue!



Please, with this king I can denounce him in public, plot to usurp his son, excommunicate his sister in law for no reason, murder my own father and be a heretic in prison and at his mercy and get away with everything by saying sorry (just to the last one)!



Well exactly, see the first point above. The north of England is certainly better off without William. It wasn't genocidal wiped out and instead is the wealthiest, safest and most powerful area of the kingdom united under one family and two rulers. They've done very well for themselves. For the welsh, its also not as bad as it was under the Normans. Saxon rulers from just over the border in Mercia are much better than French nobles, not least of which because the Mercians have better things to do than oppress the welsh being very rich and powerful in their own right. The Norman rulers of wales just had welsh possessions so naturally had to concentrate on them, to the horror of the natives.

The south is not doing as well. Frequent invasions, Normans still holding prize land, the King very weak, the North and Normandy very strong...they've been ousted out of position in matters of importance in England. If anybody has it bad though, its probably the Normans themselves. They control their own duchy, which they eventually lost OTL but live knowing that they are basically in charge of English possessions in France (a very dissipated lot spread out over a very large former kingdom) and right next to a very powerful empire England has no interest in fighting. If the emperor wants some French or Norman land, the Normans know the English wont fight them for it. They have no allies, no friends and lots of enemies and are hated at home and abroad. They're in a terrible place right now.



I love how you keep having to tell Beo that there's no chance of him getting any land even after the king threw away one chance at getting some really important land back and has won another welsh county in war. If he doesn't end up warring with the new king, whoever he is, it'll only be because he was bribed with land. All any other faction has to do once the king is dead is promise him a county or two for him to seriously consider joining them instead. And I really cant blame him.

Excellent points all but the King will still have your head, sir.

You will have to wait to see if I am able to salvage any of this myself but when I am done, I can certainly send you a save file to see what you can do with it. It's pretty messy.

A poignant chapter-there have been many of these but the king's words towards the end had me rather moved. He seems so sad but yet determined to make things right. This thing with his son is a real bitch-I am not sure what the game will do when Uhtraed dies but do your words suggest you might try and change to Elective before the king passes?

I considered changing back to elective but decided against it. We are not quite there, but I promise to detail exactly what I did do at that time. And yes, Uhtræd is tired and sad. He is desperate to make things as right as possible before he dies and has no idea when that will be. However, he assumes it will be soon.

Uhtræd's indecision is a problem. At this point, the solution is to simply send someone to his son and lay out the situation. Then there can be little doubt on where Oscytel stands. I'd say Eadward, but he's too busy actually running the kingdom. So perhaps Beo.

Of course Beo grows more unsettled. I still suspect his side will just end up on the opposite one of Eadward, just because they don't seem to like each other. Misplaced anger in my book - he may be jealous of Eadward "squandering" a wife and life Beo desires, but Eadward is not the one who has passed him over for land (and continues to do so).



I burst out laughing when I read the above. Uhtræd has been far too forgiving (though he is unaware of the murder part of Agatha's resume).

Very good point about Beo's misplaced anger. I suppose it something about Uhtræd being the oldest (and King) and thus is put on a pedestal where Eadward is closer in age and a prime target. And I would say that it is not so much indecision but rather a very tough one that plagues the King. However, once he makes up his mind he will stick with it.

Uhtræd becomes more and more impotent. In effect here he is forced to beg that Beo will not stir up trouble as regards to Eadward. Oh he has some arguments, but not really the strength to properly make them, so it becomes a heart-felt plea.

Plus, he doesn't know what to do.

He knows all too well first-hand the difficulty of assuming the Kingship having spent many years away in a foreign land, how much harder to do so when one is, to all intents and purposes, a foreigner. His indecision seems to me to be another symptom of his infirmity. Uhtræd was named "The Bold", but that fire seems well and truly spent.

I'd say that is right, by and large. There is a lot in the air to juggle and Uhtræd is simply not fit to do so anymore. With anyone else, they may be told by Eadward but Beo is different. Uhtræd must lean on family to persuade and I think it works here. It's a bit like an above scene where the brothers may fight among themselves but pit someone else outside of the family against them and they will gather together.

I know you have talked about game play errors etc, and others of your ‘secret council’ of advisors () have, ah, assisted you in your frank self-examination! Fortunately, I still don’t know enough about the game to have found any of these choices obviously bad except in retrospect when explained by the more learned.

But I take the story as it is I believe intended and so well delivered: as a narrative that uses the situation presented by the game to help relate an alternate reality. And I think the critics of certain courses approach it the same way - in character and about the characters. My own early bias against Agatha and suggestion that the headsman should have been offered another chance to practice was entirely character-driven. But redemption is as powerful a story as revenge or stern justice and also has many examples in the historical record and literary canon.

And here I will make the point I intended: what may seem like gameplay errors - or at least clear opportunities missed - I could categorise as very good narrative choices: whether made by accident or no. And for a narrative AAR, that may overmatch the logical play choice. And takes away some of the bias towards a player guiding a dynasty in many incarnations over the generations, applying a logical mind, with almost full information to decisions in the light of long term goals. How often does that happen in history, in this or any other period!?

Far more realistic for clever people to sometimes do illogical things, or not take a course of action clearly to their benefit through the lack of knowledge, timing, gumption or ruthlessness, in the hope something good may happen or unpleasantness is avoided. Far more “realistic”. The narrative fun is then telling the story that arises. Which you do so very well.

I think Uhtraed’s and Eadward’s struggles at this time come across as authentic and human in their success, miscalculation, regret, doubt and hope. To a certain extent, they are men who stand on a burning deck ... not every decision they make is going to be perfect, but at least they are making them. And everyone prefers a tale of tragedy, full of agonised ‘if onlys’, to a linear march to certain world domination.

In that context, I very much look forward to the coming passages - I feel time is about to compress for our Bold King - before it ends, leaving his triumphs and failures for the living to deal with. Just as his father did for him. We’ll get to see whether the head that next wears the crown is bowed down with the weight, or is supported by a neck made strong by necessity. I can’t wait to see how it transpires!

Just an excellent comment in every way, sir! I appreciate that you see how some of the poor gameplay choices provide some juicy narrative passages and I agree entirely that it is far more realistic to show their failures as much as their success. I have never been one to try and play total world conquest but rather like to roleplay as much as I can - grow slowly and securely (if possible) and follow the characters showing their warts as well as their triumphs. You give me a fine compliment and I very much appreciate it.

I pretty much have to second @Bullfilter above, even though I agree with nearly all of what @TheButterflyComposer says from a gameplay perspective. Don't worry too much about perfect play, so long as the narrative is consistent and the character's motivations make sense in-story. After all, even great men have made highly questionable decisions from time to time, and we often have the benefit of hindsight and access to information hidden beyond the "fog of war."

As for the story itself, I'm very much starting to get the impression that control is gradually slipping through Uhtraed and Eadward's fingers, despite their best efforts to keep hold of the situation.

And thank you as well! Indeed, while the King and Eadward should see that Agatha will remain a problem and that not giving Beo his land for so long a time is proving harmful, they are looking at things in a much smaller prism than you or I see. In that way, you are likely not wrong that things seem to be slipping away. However, there is a fix and it is coming very soon. Watch for it.

This is a pretty good discussion so I'd like to carry it on. First off, the big problem with the king and council right now:



From everything that we've seen the king (and I'll include Eadward here too because he's just as guilty) do in regards to judgement, rulership and dealing with vassals generally has been being 'nice', forgiving and conservative. Which in a realm like England at this time, is not what the country really needs. It keeps the peace with so many factions at play but doesn't solve the problems of them either. So we get humorous situations I described, where you can well imagine someone being ridiculously offensive or murderous towards the royal family, with everyone knowing they are as guilty as sin, and the king letting them off. It's not unheard of among Saxon kings (in fact it happened quite a lot, hence the Norman Conquest in fact) but it is something that needs to be addressed in universe. These are not strong rulers, and weak rulers surrounded by strong vassals get bullied/murdered by them. I can see the southern lords being a bit more passive and respectful of the king even when he's ill, they aren't that much stronger than Wessex themselves. But Mercia? Their representatives or the duchess herself should be at court, right now, dictating what's going on, or asking for special favours, or at least trying to influence affairs from afar. That's what they were doing with the last king, and now they're in an even stronger position. So where are they? If they or their representatives aren't at court at all, that's even worse for England because it means Mercia doesn't care what the Crown is doing and has decide that they are their own sovereign state. But even then, the duchess herself should have been with Edward negotiating her cousin's 'deal' to get out of prison. She has as much to gain as the Crown does and there's no way, none at all, that she'd have just left the decision of what happens to York to the house of Wessex with no input from her.

I feel like the king is both too weak and yet way too strong in-universe, from what I've read.

You are not wrong though I have kept Wulfrun out of this as a narrative choice. Too many cooks in the kitchen and all that, but indeed, a more realistic environment would be to have some representative from Mercia at court. Possibly a lost opportunity but what can you do? It is already written.

Yes, they probably should send some housecarls at this point, as part of a big diplomatic party. Give the boy no chance of refusal and force yourself into his hall. Then drag him back with a big bribe or force if you have to. Whatever it takes to get him to England. Or get him to write a treatise renouncing the throne and his family because at this point and in this period I think that's the far more likely option. Monarchy in England, especially this new centralised stuff, isn't that stable and its going to be hard enough to keep it in the same family, let alone giving it to a foreigner who cannot possibly speak English (whatever version is being used in England right now) and seems to have no interest in the kingdom whatsoever.

It might be difficult to forceably drag back a Duke in the HRE to England. However I get your point.

But of course, I'm just cautious about how to portray it properly because of how delicate the situation is. The two brothers are nowhere near as secure in their position as they seem to think and have been behaving like as of late. I sort of want reality to hit them like a bus in the near future, that actually, they don't really have all that much control over England in practical terms and if their family unit splinters any further (which it looks like it will over the succession and Beo's future prospects), someone is surely going to take advantage. Indeed, someone should already be taking advantage somewhere.

Someone is always taking advantage and we will see how prepared others are to handle it coming very soon. As mentioned by the King some difficult decisions.

She seems to be a villainess who could one day be competent and calculating but is right now too ambitious and eager (as well as socially awkward) to achieve what she wants without alienating everyone. She's dangerous because she could be very unpredictable and is in a dangerous area, and has the potential to have good relations with a powerful and large power within England.

...she's basically the personification (in some ways) or North Korea.

An interesting comparison though Agatha has a better haircut.

Indeed, and it is true. When I played with the aim of being a competent, intelligent and kind character, the game became very difficult indeed to play. Mistakes as it were, proved unavoidable, the vassal system will prey upon kind and forgiving behaviour like wolves onto a wounded lamb, and you can see how it would wear down a character and place them in impossible circumstances. But...reality ensues and hat must be brought up. The king being infirm and even nicer than usual when he really shouldn't be has to be talked about at the very least, even if he gets away with it. And he might. Vassals throughout history have done stupid stuff too, like not rebelling against weak rulers because they are kind to them . Not very often of course but it happened. I'm just concerned that this trilogy associated and focused on the house of Wessex...has basically doomed them and the ending will be of them all strung up dead, or forgotten to history, a footnote in someone else's rise to power. Right now, that's the most likely scenarios I can see happening and I'm not sure whether Coz wishes it to go that way. If not, then something in-universe England has to change to explain why the game England (because narrative trumps what the game shows) remains in the hands of the current royals.

Doing my best, sir. I mentioned that I had some difficult times with the game and we are pretty much right at that period in the story. I can't promise that the fix will be believed (or even liked) but it was my choice and I must stick with it now as it is played (and almost nearly written.)

I would be interested in a narrative where the two bodged the job to such a degree that the new ruler of the house of Wessex has to basically start from scratch even if they are king. Tear down the duchy system and replace all the old noble lands with new ones and be labelled a tyrant in the process but privately and perhaps with the benefit of hindsight actually be quite a good ruler that set England up to be a strong, stable and centralised realm throughout the rest of the medieval period.

Overall, I suppose I'm just tense about the noose that the two seem to be tying round their necks (so they can at least hang together) and the current (seeming) lack of consequence. Is this a build up for a great upheaval or civil war? Lots and lots of behind the scenes espionage and plotting as various factions(seeing the incoming crisis)) attempt to join and boost sides of the battle for the Crown? I don't know. I have faith in the writing ability of the author. I just wanted to expand upon how messed up the political, economic and social aspects of England are right now under the current system. Something drastic is going to happen soon outside of the king's death.

All of that.

No, seriously - the path forward is plotted but it will still take some time to put it all out there.

Great comments as always TBC. In essence, I guess I’m saying I’m glad for narrative purposes that the way the game has transpired provides such excellent material for robust in-character discussion. It’s like a version of the kind of conversations you can imagine going on around the strategy tables and hearths of the realm as they ponder the same issues. With views ranging from encouraging mercy and forgiveness to the liberal application of cold hard steel - or the garrotte! As previously stated, in this matter I would have had her head off and, when advised soundly to do so, lands seized for the royal demesne and something at last for Beo.

I will say that the prospects of a man of Wessex holding York grows considerably but we are not nearly there yet and it is not Beo (though perhaps it should have been.)

Exactly, especially because the game is designed so you can't play it 'perfectly', which this case demonstrated. Even if we did the smartest thing and got some land, we can only get so much. One county, one duchy title, one kingdom title etc. So we can't get rid of York. We can defang her a bit and keep her in prison till she des, which I still think is a pretty good result, but we can't get rid of the issue entirely in one action. This I like for balance and realism. Of course, if you want to go historical and tyrannical (ingame) you can go further and take everything and execute her too. But people will ate you for it, especially the new duke if they are related. It's ripe for decisions, roleplaying and consequence based gameplay.

Agreed.

Really, really interesting discussions goong on here nowc

Double agreed!


To all - Wow! I really did not expect this one passage to spark so much debate but I like it. I wonder if this will continue when Agatha's true fate is revealed?

In all practical purposes here is how I look at it:
1. I play the game (well or not)
2. I take what I have played and try to make sense of it for the reader and my characters (and hopefully make it believable)
3. Use what I have created to explore relationships, identity, sex, religion, society, power or lack thereof, etc.
4. And if I have time, perhaps include a few cliffhangers to please @Storey who may or may not someday return to us.

To have caused such discussion as above means that I must be doing something right even with my poor gameplay decisions (which are many.) It is a fine compliment that you all give to me as it shows how closely you have read what I have spent so much time trying to build. I truly did not know what or how much I might create when I started this back at the end of 2016. It was really just a way for me to get back into writing and has taken off in such a way that now I have to do it every day (which is why I am so far ahead in scenes and update perhaps too often.) I really cannot thank you enough and the above discussion shows precisely what I have said on many occasions - you all are the very best readAARs in all of AARland!

I or my characters may not always please you, but I hope that they come across as human and real. And that means showing their failures as much as their success. It is indeed an alternate universe now, but there remains the very same general thoughts that might be had in OTL. I've no issue looking at what should happen but the fact is...this is what did happen. History in all of its messy glory.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

You are not wrong though I have kept Wulfrun out of this as a narrative choice. Too many cooks in the kitchen and all that, but indeed, a more realistic environment would be to have some representative from Mercia at court. Possibly a lost opportunity but what can you do? It is already written.

To use the GoT example, it would be like the Lannisters not only being the richest people in the realm but also the largest kingdom with the most men (not sure if they were already) and being completely absent from King's Landing for most of the first book until Joffrey takes the throne. Its just...odd.

It might be difficult to forceably drag back a Duke in the HRE to England. However I get your point.

They've done such things before. Especially if the 'duke' is pretty weak, which he seems to be.

Doing my best, sir. I mentioned that I had some difficult times with the game and we are pretty much right at that period in the story. I can't promise that the fix will be believed (or even liked) but it was my choice and I must stick with it now as it is played (and almost nearly written.)

I'm interested in the solution, whatever it might be.

 

[coz1]

To use the GoT example, it would be like the Lannisters not only being the richest people in the realm but also the largest kingdom with the most men (not sure if they were already) and being completely absent from King's Landing for most of the first book until Joffrey takes the throne. Its just...odd.

I am too much of ASOIAF nerd to let this go. The Lannisters are (were) the richest House but not the strongest. Anyone that has played the scenario/mod knows that the North is the largest and most strong. Yet your point does remain - there would be some representation of their interests. Thankfully, no one loses their head over it.

They've done such things before. Especially if the 'duke' is pretty weak, which he seems to be.

Oscytel is not a 'duke' but a Duke in the Empire with all power that comes with that. I applaud your idea of realism but this must be included. Not that easy.

I'm interested in the solution, whatever it might be.

I am happy to hear it because I got...creative. More words later when I can "spill the beans."

 

[coz1]

The Heavy Crown​

​

Gainsborough, England – August 1133​

Eadward pushed through a very heavy throng of courtiers as he did his best to move beyond the hall. There were many there that sought to catch his eye but it was one that he himself found that stopped him in his tracks.

“Brother Nylan...you remain from Lincoln?” he asked with some surprise.

The monk pulled his robes close and offered a slight bow, “His Grace had wish so I have let go of my progress. Peace be with you, my Lord Prince.”

“And also with you, Brother,” Eadward gestured with his hand, “I have been gone for some long time and though I have seen to His Grace, I would like to hear your thoughts.”

“I be not his confessor...” Brother Nylan suggested with a smile, “...but I could still say little of what he speaks to me, my Lord.”

The Prince Regent held a hand close, “I may understand, but I would dearly love to hear your thoughts at any ways. I do know that my brother, the King, does trust you well and you would be of the most assistance to let me know how he has been for these last few months.”

Brother Nylan offered a sorrowful face, “He remains quite ill, my Lord Prince. And full of question.”

“I have many, myself...” Eadward pulled the monk aside, “...I am told that he has met with our brother.”

The monk smiled, “Do you wonder if the meet with Prince Beorhtmaer be fruitful?”

Eadward frowned, “I wonder if it be necessary? It is fine to have the Prince back to Gainsborough as I miss him sorely, but I do not think to disturb His Grace when his rest is most needed.”

“I had naught to do with it, my Lord Prince Regent,” Brother Nylan offered another brief bow, “I come when I am called and all else is away from my ken.”

The Prince pulled him close, “I should like very much for you to take more care for His Grace. Confessor or no, he does need a man like yourself about him at this time. What think you?”

“Whether I be called by him or by you, my Lord...” the monk held question, “...I would answer.”

Eadward looked around the crowded hall before turning his face back to Brother Nylan, “Would you follow me, sir? I would have more words to say and ask. May you spare a moment?”

The monk offered a comforting smile, “Your brother, the King, does like it well and if I may be of service to you, my Lord...here I be.”

The two moved swiftly past a few courtiers that tried to gain the Prince’s ear but he found an anti-chamber just off the hall and hurriedly closed the door behind them, “They would all now know to look to me for their favor and so the great hall bustles once more and I like it not. Happy was I when it remained dark.”

“Happier days still prior to that, my Lord Prince...” Brother Nylan smiled, “...when the King did lead in his cheer and kept to his full health.”

They found themselves in the empty chambers of the court herald and Eadward sat on the corner of the desk as he gave nod, “That much is certain, Brother. What I would not give to go back to those beauteous times.”

The monk offered a kindly nod, “As regent for the realm, you do much the work of a King. As I have spoken with His Grace often over these last many years, I do understand the heavy burdens that come with such a task as this.”

“It is never ending,” Eadward sighed, “I fear it to have worn my brother down to a nub.”

“He remains somewhat sharper than that, my Lord Prince,” the monk grinned, “But your words have some understanding to me. His Grace is greatly troubled.”

Eadward found question, “By what, if I may ask? I know well that his infirmity causes him a great deal of discomfort, but is there more?”

“I’ve told you, my Lord Prince...” Brother Nylan offered a slight bow of his head, “...I truly could not say. I should think, however, the answer be right before you with some thought.”

“The war with Glamorgan...” Eadward gave a quick nod, “...he would never let go of his martial spirit.”

The monk bowed his head once more, “You may have some of it, my Lord.”

Eadward stood with some exasperation, “The war goes well! Our nephews should see Cardiff fall soon and what may be left of the Welsh stragglers continue to find defeat. In truth, I am told we find a prisoner at the now from one of their best generals.”

​

“I be certain that His Grace found this news well met,” Brother Nylan cocked a brow, “Yet he may wish himself there rather than here at the now. For one so bold, it is a harsh truth to be removed from that which is so beloved.”

“The very heart of it,” Eadward stepped closer, “And yet, I believe this to be not his only source of misgiving.”

Brother Nylan smiled once more with a kind face, “You would not tease it from me, my Lord Prince, for you are a shrewd man and know your brother well. What else does give him pause?”

“Is this how it goes with the King?” Eadward found a slight grin, “So many riddles?”

“I am a firm believer in God’s gift to us all of a fine mind,” the monk grinned in return, “The answers are usually readily at hand even before the question is asked.”

The Prince gave nod as he moved to a window, “Then yes...I know well that His Grace is gravely concerned over his son and the fate of our realm when he is finally gone.”

“I think that you may have it, my Lord Prince,” Brother Nylan held a brief finger to his tonsured head in reply, “He does speak to a great worry.”

“I do not know how well you know of the great Lords of our realm, Brother...” Eadward turned back to him with a furrowed brow.

The monk smiled, “I should think that I know fair enough, my Lord, as it is my hope that my history is sound for this time.”

Eadward stepped closer to him, “From one end to the other...we are like to be back as if my father nor my brother ever wore this crown. What think you?”

“I am but an observer in these matters...” Brother Nylan suggested, “...my counsel may only speak to the spiritual and not some other.”

“Come now, Brother...” Eadward found a grin, “You would ignore the truth of it simply to have your facts straight? Though we be a realm whole, there are kingdoms both within Mercia and Normandy at the now. Powerful Lords each and with all the manner to challenge when the time does come. In truth, I am told that our Lord Robert does prefer his title of Duke of Flanders to that of Normandy.”

​

The monk simply gave nod, “I know not what to say. It is not my worth to judge these men and women, though I do think Lord Robert to be a pernicious sort as his father was before him...as was his father before him. Yet that is not my task. Mine own is to be true to God and I do believe that the writing of this history with our bold King is part of that task. I may do no other.”

“It does not disturb you to see these movements, as I do all of the time?” Eadward asked, “These great Lords planning their play as if the beast is soon to fall...and even these others...these heretics and rebels. Derby holds the Lollards...and now Bedford? It is some other, but heretical still. Even in Normandy, there comes revolt from Vendome. These things do not cause you pain as you think of God’s wish for this realm?”

​

Brother Nylan offered a brief sigh, “I must admit that I am not immune to the words of the common folk of our realm, and as much as the uncertainty of our future causes these Lords to act out, I do believe the same could be said for all others. I would tell you that I have mentioned it also to His Grace.”

“Yet what to do?!” Eadward found a plea, “What would His Grace say?”

The monk could only shrug causing the Prince to offer a sigh of his own, “Very well. I would speak to him and he would tell me of his thoughts, but I remain interested in yours as you be so learned, Brother. The truth of it is that I myself do not know what may happen when this sad day does arrive. I have worked tirelessly to reach out to the Prince and convince him of his great duty, as has His Grace, and no word would return. I do not think him willing to take up this great charge, and then...”

“And then...who may it be?” Brother Nylan asked with a curious brow.

Eadward turned back to him with question, “What mean you, sir?”

“I think it an obvious question, my Lord Prince,” the monk folded his hands within his robe, “If the heir to our bold King be not his son, then who will be King after him?”

“The Prince Oscytel IS the heir!” Eadward remained adamant.

The monk kept at his teasing line of question, “And if the Prince should refuse? Who then?”

Eadward shook his head, “I do not know...mayhap the younger Prince...Eadgar?”

“If the one may abdicate his duty...” Brother Nylan questioned, “...then why would both not do so? I would say that His Grace does mention few words from the younger Prince himself. If such occurred, then what?”

The Prince Regent waved a hand as he moved back to the window, “You must have spent some time down to Norfolk to speak with my Lady wife or mayhap my sister.”

“Why, my Lord?” the monk asked with a slight grin, “Do these fine ladies also come to mind with what I see now before me?”

Eadward turned with a shocked face, “Because we have the law, sir! Codified by my father and found assent by these great Lords. If you think to look to me, then I would have the very same answer that I have given to my Judith...it cannot be so!”

Brother Nylan offered another shrug, “Then the realm finds itself with a great quandary, my Lord Prince, as you do yourself. We may not know what will happen to the Kingdom when His Grace does pass for it seems that no man has wish to pick it up.”

“That be not my wish...” Eadward tried to explain but the monk stopped him with a gentle hand.

“You must speak with your brother, the King, about these matters much more, my Lord Prince...” Brother Nylan suggested with a kind face, “I have loaned him a fine tome from our library at Lincoln that may be of help. A history of our great Saxons Kings of yore...it may enlighten us all. I know that the future is murky, but as I have told His Grace, I shall also speak it to you...look to God, my Lord. There you may find your answer.”

With that, the monk offered a last slight bow and backed away to leave the small chamber as Eadward watched after him with great consternation. It was a preposterous idea what this friar seemed to suggest and he’d told his wife so when she herself presented the same to him some months past. Eadward was rather sore with Mildrith that it seemed to come from her. And yet, he returned to his original question...what to do?

He did not wish to press his brother, but with every passing day the question loomed larger. King Uhtræd was not getting better and if the Prince would not return…

...as Regent, Eadward had need to sort it out. But how? The monk was right. That was the true question.

 

[Bullfilter]

Brother Nylan is such a tease! Is there a move afoot to re-adopt an elective succession!? All that ‘Saxon tradtion’ - but who would win such an election? Or will Oscytel come through after all even with the years of silence and seeming indifference? Or Eadgar comes through to save the day?

Then again Uhtraed will probably live to 100, incapable and confined to a darkened room. Perhaps Eadward needs to let Agatha have a ‘private audience’ with the King, with plenty of spare pillows left lying around. The guards could then spring to action, find her feather-pillow handed, off with her head quickly in true patsy style. Eadward becomes Lord Protector of the realm, fights Beo in a civil war, etc etc. anything but this slow agony of indecision!

Seriously, we’re all in suspense here, something must surely break soon.