The greatest general of all time in western history?

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highsis

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(only counting western history and pre modern era. - before WWI and WWII.)

Napoleon
Caesar
Hannibal
Alexander the Great
Scipio Africanus

I believe these 5 generals are often mentioned when discussing the greatest general in western history. Who do you think, among those and others, the greatest general?





My 2 cents:

Hannibal > Napoleon > Alexander the great > Scipio > Caesar



Among those 5, Caesar is obviously the worst if we evaluate based on tactical abiliteis. He had a great ability to improvise and had a deep strategical knowledge, but his tactical ability lacked as he often put his armies in danger and lost several battles despite his advantages. I highly doubt if he can even be among the top 5 generals of western history, but I put him in the list because he is famous.



Alexander the great, while the greatest conqueror of all time, relied too much on his personal bravery. Both in the battle of Issus and Gaugamela, he would have lost if Darius III didn't flee the field or if Alexander was killed as he always fought at the front line which could be extremely dangerous. His use of tactics was impressive for sure, but that is why(the fact that Darius III being a coward greatly having contributed to Alexander's victories) I don't rank him the top general.



Napoleon was nearly invincible during his prime. No contemporary generals could come even close to his brilliance, though in his later days he shows a huge decline in tactical abilities. (in waterloo)

However, even at his prime, Napoleon made a huge mistake in the battle of Marengo. Also, in the first Italian campaign, he ordered Charles Pierre Francois Augereau to hold 25k Autrian army moving north with 10k army for 2 days without specific instructions while he destroyed the Autrian main army; which could have ruined his campaign if it didn't work. Napoleon's victories, while brilliant, sometimes relied on reluctance of enemy generals and luck. That's why I rank him #2 rather than #1.



Hannibal's 'strategic ability' can be arguable. One can argue there was no need to cross Alfs, and that Hannibal should have stayed in southern France, waiting for Roman advance in the region. Or he could have secured Sicily after the victory in Cannae to secure a good supply route rather than wasting time in soutern Italy. However, I think his tactical ability to lead armies in battle was unarguably the best before the battle of Zama. Hannibal was undefeated in pitched battles(excluding skirmishes), and even though there were some occasions where he failed to route Roman army such as in the siege of Capua, he remained alive for 16 years in Italin penninsula without properly receiving supplies from Carthage mainland.

Although he failed to utilized war elephants properly in the battle of Zama and was eventually defeated by Scipio, I believe Hannibal to be the greatest general of western history as he was pioneer of his refined anvil and hammer tactics and Scipio only imitated him and he remained invincible before the battle of Zama.
 

n00bypl4y3r

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Skanderbeg > All others

Does no one remember Skanderbeg, who fought pretty much by himself against the Ottomans for 20 years, never losing a single battle?
 

Lord Finnish

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Eh, I started to rant about why Subutai wasn't mentioned but only then realized that this thread is about Western general.


As for them, I don't think that winning battles is a general's greatest talent - it's taking advantage of them. That's why I don't think Hannibal is the greatest. Alexander the Great was much better in that, but I think a great deal of his success comes from his father than solely Alexander himself. Philip deserves a lot of credit for Alexander's greatness.
Napoleon won many battles but his Russian and Spanish adventures cost him a lot of points. Being a general is more than just winning individual battles.

I would actually say that Jeanne D'Arc was one of the best generals in history, though of course not the best. her story is just so amazing that you'd think that kind of stuff only happens in books. Too bad she didn't live that long, I'm sure she could have ended the HYW by 1435-8. Shame what happened to her, a lot of WW2 generals also suffer from not getting a lot of time to show their skills.
 

Orinsul

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Hard to judge them by their ways though. If a general has superior army or a strong economy backing him, he can be completely inept and win by an impressive margin.

Really the only cases where you can point it out is where the general overruled his advisor and his politicians and turned a situation around.
And even then, was the brilliant idea his or some minor officers that he just took credit for?

With Joan, it looks like it ought to be a perfect case, exceptional leader at the time when a country is pretty much written off as gone. But there is that cynical concern, that maybe it wasn't hurt. Just after the english martyred her she became a great narrative for the french so how much was actually her, and how much was the rest of the commanders in the war that just got attributed to her to better the propaganda?
 

Enewald

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How Suvorov, Charles XII, Äetius (really made a difference in European history), Khalid ibn Walid (if Hannibal is on your list, why not an Arab?), Hynuadi, Narses, Maurice of Oranje, Gustav II Adolph, Jan Zizka, Friedrich der Grosse...

Ugh, I think we have a huge thread on history forums where this same has been attempted for years. These threads come and go, maybe just merge this one into the larger one?
 

Avernite

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There's a gap in the list from Caesar to Napoleon. I do not believe Europe never had a good general between those two - I just think technology didn't allow the brilliant generals as much conquest...

But even then. Charlemagne conquered what we now call Western Europe, Barbarossa re-united the HRE, Philippe II Auguste conquered half of France, as did Henry V, etcetera.
 

Enewald

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Was Temujin that good a field general, or was he simply good at long-term strategy?

By creating from dozens of tribes a huge nation-army that vanquished every enemy that he fought against?
And how often did he lose? ;)
How many good subordinates did he have; you have to be good leader in order to get good officers.
Before 1200 there was hardly any state on the eastern steppes, a hundred years later a gargantuan empire ruled most of Eurasia.

Also, China had never been completely conquered by barbarians, this was the first time it ever completely fell to the northern nomads, even if it took almost a century to finish the progress that ended under Kublai.
 

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By creating from dozens of tribes a huge nation-army that vanquished every enemy that he fought against?
And how often did he lose? ;)
How many good subordinates did he have; you have to be good leader in order to get good officers.
Before 1200 there was hardly any state on the eastern steppes, a hundred years later a gargantuan empire ruled most of Eurasia.

Also, China had never been completely conquered by barbarians, this was the first time it ever completely fell to the northern nomads, even if it took almost a century to finish the progress that ended under Kublai.

:D good point.
 

telesien

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Sargon I
Tiglath-Pileser III
Cyrus II

Just because I am pretty sure they wouldn't be mentioned otherwise. And yes, I do consider them western, since they fall into the Near and Middle East areas
 

ashbery76

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Alexander>Caesar>Scipio Africanus in that list.
Alexander destroyed the superpower of the age and never got beat.

Hannibal and Napoleon made terrible strategic errors and both got a good beating, "later days" or not.You cannot be great when you're ultimately a loser in history.
 
Last edited:

Beladriel

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Skanderbeg > All others

Does no one remember Skanderbeg, who fought pretty much by himself against the Ottomans for 20 years, never losing a single battle?

Skanderbeg is indeed ridiculously great - but if the historians are to be believed. I remember I had read a 19th century French book on Ottoman history, and the author had some serious doubts about whether Skanderbeg was as good as the historians of that area made him out to be, and that seemed like a reasonable doubt to me.

Though, even if the historians fluffed him a bit, the mere fact his Albania stood against the Ottomans near their prime for twenty years is still an amazing feat. Honourable mentions go to the Vlad the Impaler of Wallachia and Stephen the Gread of Moldavia, in this regard.

In fact, these three people are why I think Mehmed the Conqueror, one of the popular sultans in the Ottoman history, is rather overrated. His ambitions were thorougly checked by small states like this for too long a time - in fact, if he hadn't conquered Constantinople, I doubt he'd be remembered in the popular memory at all.

--

Anyway, I'm a strong admirer of Frederick II, the Holy Roman Emperor and King of Sicily. Although he has been defeated on the field several times, he still showed a marked talent that, when combined with his amazing intellect, justified the honorific given to him by the historians: Stupor Mundi.

Edit: My fav. from the Antiquity is Alcibiades, btw.
 
Last edited:

Orinsul

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FII is more remembered for thinking his intellect was greater than anyone elses than actually being smart. In alot of histories he's a subject of a rant about terrible, overrated and arrogant figures.
And I've even seen him replace the zero in a 0-10 scale of historical leaders by merit. An oathbreaker, lawbreaker rather than maker, supremely arrogant, betrayer of friends and relatives, and etc etc, if he could have melted other peoples property down to create giant statues of himself, he completely would have.

Heres a quote from one article about it
I feel justified in calling Frederick II Hohenstaufen the worst of Christian leaders because Madden says “The contrast between the visits of Louis IX and Frederick II could not be more stark.” [7] Régine Pernoud calls him “The Crusader without Faith.” (However, another good candidate may be Reynald of Chatillon, who was in jail for 16 years because nobody wanted to ransom him.) Upon his coronation, Frederick II had vowed to undertake a crusade, but found excuses to put it off for 13 years. Pope Innocent III excommunicated him for breaking his vow, but Frederick II eventually did go on a crusade when he saw opportunity for personal gain. With a reputation for spectacular failure already building, Frederick II married Isabella in order to become King of Jerusalem, then immediately violated agreements with his father-in-law and seized personal control. Frederick II wanted to fashion himself an absolute ruler in Roman style, in the process alienating many potential allies. He was the only king to crown himself. Piety was an expected priority for Christian kings; since Frederick II showed only contempt for Chrsitianity, most Christian rulers were ashamed of him. Even Muslim leaders felt they would have rather faced anyone else—they could respect many of their opponents, but even when they made treaties with Frederick II, they despised him. [8]

That one lists Louis as the best leader and Saladin as the best general.
 

Beladriel

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That one lists Louis as the best leader and Saladin as the best general.

Saladin, as the best general? Saladin wasn't even a general properly, he is (and should be) best remembered for his statesmanship rather than anything else.

And as far as I recall, Frederick II was actually beloved by his Muslim subjects for his tolerance of them (a calculated tolerance - Pope's excommunications did not work on them) and ended up befriending the Ayyubid Sultan of Egypt during the crusade.

In any case, it's true that his legacy has largely been negative (having led to the greater decentralization of Germany), but had he been as incompetent as the article makes him out to be, I strongly doubt the Church would be so threatened by him that they had to declare him the anti-Christ.