The Great Warrior Migration, or Do We Really Need a NEW General For Each Retinue?

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KPJ

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I guess it's mostly in the title.
I recently conquered, from Mali-Mauretania, the Kingdom of Egypt (which runs up through the Levant into Anatolia). My retinue cap went from around 40k to 120k-ish. So I built as large a retinue as I could afford. I keep having to build more, they're too expensive to fill up all at once.
Anyway, so I've got over 120 courtiers in my court, most of them single, lowborn military men. Is this causing problems with fertility? It is certainly making my realm a headache to run (I used to get through a few decades in a 2-hour session, now it's around 3-4 years), due to all their plotting. Every time they get a disease or whatever I have to click off a minor warning.

It seems to be working as designed so I didn't want to list it as a bug. I feel that it should at least try to use the military-men who are already in your realm. In fact, it could add a bit of intrigue if your disloyal vassal is leading a retinue (could also make him more loyal).

Another issue is when I want to use one of these men in my court. They can't be assigned jobs because they're leading troops, but often they're way down at the bottom of the list of generals in the levy, not always the leader. Anyway, the only way to get them out of that troop is to make them the leader of a flank and then change the leader of that flank. It's a really unintuitive system.

This is a request for help from the community on how to deal with this problem.

It is also a request to Paradox to make military management a bit more user-friendly. Levy troops start with no generals, and when I assign generals to an army I can never be certain (not without around 5-10 clicks) if it will leave a flank in another army missing a general when I do. A simple solution would be to add whether and where they are leading troops, and whether they are leading a flank, in the hover-info over a character's portrait.

Armies who are engaged in sieges can change their leader by pausing and moving them, without breaking the siege. Since this is possible perhaps we should just be able to see the leaders the way we can when they're in peaceful territory or when they're moving.
 

Beric Dondarion

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Yeah, it is annoying because more courtiers=less children. In my opinion, they should assign a courtier you already have or start with none like levies. To solve the problem currently, just give them extra land or something, but that's inefficient.
 

EmperorBobman

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Oh, just wait until you get to the late game parts and the fact that every ruler now has a 100+ person court. Watch as the lag devours the game. I usually try not to label something as making the game 'unplayable' but this one just about does it. There are so many annoyances to having these giant courts that the game has lost a LOT of its fun for me. I used to be mildly annoyed when every single lord in my realm would want to be my court chaplain but now with all these randomly generated people it's just plain obnoxious. Now every one of them constantly demands that every single council position be theirs.
 

KPJ

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Yeah, EmperorBobman! Try it as an Islamic where you need your sons to hold Court positions to reduce decadence... My son with 15 Martial must have been the most hated man in the realm. I received requests almost every day for his position.

Edit: So, forumites? Is there any quick solution, even a savegame edit that can be done to quickly remove these hordes?
I'm wondering if a decision could be scripted from the intrigue screen, perhaps, to just sort of 'banish all unlanded lowborns with no family members'.
 

Comm Cody

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The solution is to not have a massive retinue.
 

whosthebestcop

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I'm surprised this wasn't hot fixed. Guess it is just waiting for 1.08 to be released. There is almost nothing you can do about and god fordid you accidental disband a 30k retinue and recreate it. Add another +25 generals to your court instantly.

The general generating and the incorrect army numbers in the ledger are the 2 most annoying things about 1.07. No idea how those 2 were found in a bug check. I noticed the ledger bug immediately. As soon as I start the game I check the ledger, hello it is wrong. While it did take around 50-80 years to realize the mass population of generals. It was still painfully obvious.

I know some bugs sneak by but these appeared to at least be extremely obvious if they aren't extremely important. But I would say having incorrect ledger data should have been hot fixed. 1.07b did absolutely nothing to improve my 1.07 games.
 

Danarca

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Oh sweet Jesus, I hope Paradox is on top of this, it takes an hour just to simulate a single decade..
Last I checked I had 400 courtiers, which is REALLY hurting reproduction (and my poor CPU), and every single vassal seems to have 50 - 70 generals as well.

Their numbers needs to be culled down to a tenth of what they currently are.
 

SirRobin

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A better solution might be to disable the LoR DLC. I never got it because of threads like these. I'm playing the latest patch sans retinues and no large courts for me.

I think I'm just going to disable LoR too. The extra Byz stuff is great but the headaches you get with retinues is just becoming too much of a pain.
 

unmerged(75409)

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The whole game side with selecting leaders is SNAFU at present. This leader spam makes it even less interesting to pick commanders.

When the game came out I thought that selecting leaders would be an interesting part of the game... maybe even with political connotations since I thought you would be limited to selecting your commanders from the high nobility. So that small and large realms might be on an even level, with both having about the same quality of leaders available.

But actually it's totally not like that. There is no political side to leader choice - you can pick any random mayor or courtier to command dukes and princes, and no one cares. It's also crassly balanced against smaller realms - a duke will only have 6 or 10 people to pick from, but any king has hundreds of people to pick from (not counting retinues). :(

If it was up to me, I would TOTALLY cut back on this commander nonsense. As a ruler you would only be allowed to pick army commanders from people ACTUALLY LEADING TROOPS within that army. And from among those people, you would be restricted to the 5-10 highest ranking commanders, ranked by nobility not by military ability! And to lead your retinues, you would get 1 courtier for the first 10 retinues, 1 more for the next 30, 1 more for the next 50 and so on, something like that. Not this insanity.

I mean, if you look into history books, who really led the armies of the kings? Household knights, or the high lords of the realm?

Battle of Legnica, Henry II of Silesia and his allies, against the Mongols:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Legnica#Composition said:
Henry divided his forces into four sections: the Bavarian miners led by Boleslav of Moravia [son of the Margrave of Moravia]; the conscripts from Greater Poland along with some Cracovians led by Sulisław; the brother of the killed palatine of Kraków; the army of Opole under Mieszko [Duke of Opole], possibly with some Teutonic Knights; and, under Henry's personal command, the Silesians, Moravians, Templars and Hospitallers.

Battle of Azincourt, King Henry V against les francaises:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt#English_deployment said:
The army was organised into three "battles" or divisions, the vanguard led by the Duke of York, the main battle led by Henry himself and the rearguard, led by Lord Camoys [very experienced guy but only baron level; was member of Henry's court].
The French were arrayed in three lines or "battles". The first line was led by Constable D'Albret, Marshal Boucicault [marshal of France; very famous soldier from lower nobility], and the Dukes of Orléans and Bourbon, with attached cavalry wings under the Count of Vendôme and Sir Clignet de Brebant. The second line was commanded by the Dukes of Bar and Alençon and the Count of Nevers. The third line was under the Counts of Dammartin and Fauconberg.

Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa, kings of Spain against the army of the Almohad Caliphate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Las_Navas_de_Tolosa said:
Alfonso VIII of Castile-center; Sancho VII of Navarre-right wing; Pedro II of Aragon-left wing

I know there are historical examples of kings who had non-landed nobles leading their armies. It wasn't always pure rank which decided who would lead armies. But for every army that was lead by a no-name confidante of the king, in medieval history you find 20 other armies which were led by the highest ranking nobles. It just makes sense to restrict it - it makes wars between large and small realms more fair, it gives you as the guy who picks the leaders a "political" challenge as well as a military one, and it means you no longer need 100 leaders to command your retinues.

To give rulers a way to put an unlanded household troopers in command of armies, I would give you as a king 1 or 2 honorary and revokable titles, that you can confer on court male members. Those would elevate them to the rank of a duke, without them actually being dukes. And thereby put them on par with your senior nobility for command purposes. But that would be all the exception I would allow. You have to go to war with the leaders you have, not the leaders you would like to have :p
 

whosthebestcop

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Not just all of the auto generated generals but all of your vassals levies are assigned no generals. I forgot about that.
 

unmerged(75409)

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Has this actually been acknowledged by PI anywhere as a bug to be fixed?
You have to assume they did play a bunch of campaigns with retinues, and would not have been bothered by the commanders. After all that's what they programmed into the game - one commander per retinue, and up to several 100s of retinues per ruler. This is not some side-effect, they surely played the game as BYZ emperor more than just a few times, recreating the Roman empire, and maxed out the retinues. So it's definitely a feature, not a bug.
 

whosthebestcop

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You have to assume they did play a bunch of campaigns with retinues, and would not have been bothered by the commanders. After all that's what they programmed into the game - one commander per retinue, and up to several 100s of retinues per ruler. This is not some side-effect, they surely played the game as BYZ emperor more than just a few times, recreating the Roman empire, and maxed out the retinues. So it's definitely a feature, not a bug.

Technically not a bug as something isn't broke as it never existed before. It just happens to be a feature that is not working with the anticipated results when compared to gameplay.

Being you don't want courts of over 30 people. First no children for any court members. 2nd end game on many people's computers will be bogged down.

So it is a problem where a new feature of the game has negative/harmful effects on gameplay and fun. Technically not a bug but something that still needs to be corrected.
 

unmerged(75409)

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Technically not a bug as something isn't broke as it never existed before. It just happens to be a feature that is not working with the anticipated results when compared to gameplay.

Being you don't want courts of over 30 people. First no children for any court members. 2nd end game on many people's computers will be bogged down.

So it is a problem where a new feature of the game has negative/harmful effects on gameplay and fun. Technically not a bug but something that still needs to be corrected.
It's certainly an imbalanced feature. Which is kind of sad, because lately for every feature that DLCs and their associated patches fix, they unbalance another. I liked the initial CK2 release very much and thought the same about the patches until 1.04 more or less. But since then, Paradox seems to have shifted its Q&A staff and its best betatesters to other projects. So they have a couple of coders working on the DLCs, and they implement the planned features, but don't put nearly as much time into balancing as they ought to.

Maybe the senior Q&A people and beta testers got shifted to HoI3? AFAIK their latest release, FTM, was a very huge update in terms of code (they switched HoI3 from an expansion-model to the DLC-model) but there don't seem to be many bugs. Also the content was fairly well received, which indicates to me that they spent much more effort on fine-tuning and balancing than they used to with earlier HoI3 expansions.

CK2 has as of late not really gotten as much love as it used to. Certainly it got a ton of content, which is really nice, and shows that they have a lot of people working on it. But it's much rougher around the edges than it used to be. Hopefully they'll still find time to rebalance and smoothen the side-effects of the latest changes. If the next DLC was just a balance package, with no new features added (i.e. four or six weeks of project effort just about balancing and fixing) I'd buy it still.
 

ve3609

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I think in the CK2+ mod there is a decision that states, when courtiers ask for a position, "never ask me again"