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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Enewald

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You should have annexed Achaea to hinder them from causing more sorrows.
And then kill all the Seleucid royal family. :cool:
 

Mygreatlord

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I wonder why the Seleucids are THAT weak in the beginning. I am currently playing a game (AAR is here in the forum) where the Seleucids have like 120-150k and even more army (not manpower, army!) so I wonder why you could beat them in beginning with only 2 armies (both having only about 20k).

And my game is standard settings, that means, "normal".
 

unmerged(58610)

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You'll be hoping the next time you DoW Achaea the Macedons honour their alliance. Rome proved surprisingly easy to beat in two wars. Surely , the Seleucids haven't forgotten the drubbing Egypt handed them before? This might be a good time to hope that Osroene does not oour their alliance with Egypt.

More Seleucid provinces to become Egyptian.
 

Lofman

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You should have annexed Achaea to hinder them from causing more sorrows.
And then kill all the Seleucid royal family. :cool:

There are too many Seleucids running around to do that, I think they may rival the amount of Ptolemies (there was around 40 the last time I checked, half in Egypt, half in Macedonia). And as for Achaea, well I did not really want to end them, and besides they do have 2 provinces, so I would at most have gotten Sparta. Now who in their right mind wants that place ;) ?

I wonder why the Seleucids are THAT weak in the beginning. I am currently playing a game (AAR is here in the forum) where the Seleucids have like 120-150k and even more army (not manpower, army!) so I wonder why you could beat them in beginning with only 2 armies (both having only about 20k).

And my game is standard settings, that means, "normal".

Well the differences in army size at the beginning for Seleucids and Ptolies is not that huge, and as the Ptolies have a larger manpower reserve, it is relatively simple to, if one minimize losses as much as possible, outlast the Seleucids. And then the fact that the Armenians and Atropatenians attacked helped as well, since while they got defeated they did tie up some of the Seleucid armies.

Also there are some differences between the relative strength in my mod and vanilla. Only looking at Ptolies & Seleucids, the Ptolies start with ~30k instead of ~60k in the manpower reserve and ~5k less troops (53k instead of just less then 60k). The Seleucids have ~5k less in their manpower reserve but exactly 9k troops less (39k instead of 48k if I remember the amount of 10k armies correctly), so the situation in my mod possibly does favor the Ptolies somewhat more then vanilla does (depending on what one feels is more important, 9k starting troops or 30k manpower).

You'll be hoping the next time you DoW Achaea the Macedons honour their alliance. Rome proved surprisingly easy to beat in two wars. Surely , the Seleucids haven't forgotten the drubbing Egypt handed them before? This might be a good time to hope that Osroene does not oour their alliance with Egypt.

More Seleucid provinces to become Egyptian.

Unlikely though as the Macedonians sadly pay tribute (not only to me but still to the Getae as well, hm do I see another reason to go to war with them :p ). Against Rome, it did help having a martial 9 general (with no charisma). And as will be seen, while Osroene did honour the alliance, they did something unforgivable afterwards.
 

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As I marched against Damascus in preparation for the coming war, a terrible omen was seen. It did not bode well for the war, and I thought about postponing the war until a more favourable omen. But alas I did not, and went to war with the Seleucid King Athineos and his allies, king Ariobarzanes of Pontus, king Ahijah of Nabatea as well as the local potentates of Atropatene Media and Persepolis and Susiana. King Philip of Osroene joined my side in the conflict. In Damascus I fought the Seleucids and won.

hx3i1f.jpg

But it was a hard-fought victory. The Seleucids may have been unable to create a decent phalanx, but their numerous cavalry and disciplined archers caused many losses. And I could not take advantage of my victory as the fould Nabateans raided the lands and I had to move south, leaving Therapon to deal with the Seleucids. In Anatolia though the war went well. Arganos defeated the Seleucids in Galatia and then in Cappadocia. He laid siege to Mazaka, and all went well. However Therapon lost in Coele-Syria, and the Kushites invaded and laid siege to Syene. I marched to meet them in battle, hoping that Therapon would be able to keep the Seleucids at bay for long enough.

11rez5c.jpg

In the north Arganos took Mazaka and marched into Pontus. He met the Pontic and Seleucid armies outside Amasya and defeated them, and laid siege to the Pontic capital.

2hprjf4.jpg

However, Osroene decided to get out of the war and paid a small sum to the Seleucids. King Philip would have to be thaught a lesson. But not until this war was over.

dlrcrn.jpg

I crushed the Kushite army and returned to Syria. However Therapon was once again defeated, and the Phoenician cities came under siege of the Seleucid army. I really should have heeded the Gods. Arganos, who had thus far performed admirably was beaten by a large Seleucid army, and only managed to get a small remnant of his army to Lydia.

116ibo5.jpg

The war was not going well, and as if to make it clear, I was defeated in Coele-Syria.

2v2jvgo.jpg

The Gods had shown their displeasure, and so when Athineos demanded Cilicia and a modest sum, I saw no option but to accept.

33omaf8.jpg

I looked at what had happened, and decided to make some changes in the army. While the Seleucids did not have many phalangites, those they did have fought in a very deep formation, something that definately proved its worth, so I would have been a fool not to make sure the Phalanx would become deeper. Also I decided to get part of my local troops to fight in a phalanx with sarissas as well, while not quite as good as a proper phalanx it would make them much more able to stand up to all the foes we face. As I was doing this once again there was war, but this time I did not need to fight. Our Syracusan allies decided to attack Massilia.

nrnfm.jpg

The Romans did not become involved, and even if they had, they would have been unable to do much, seeing as their territory was being ravaged by other barbarians. The Carthaginians soon also suffered some problems as they found themselves in a civil war.

2cdy7wz.jpg

But the rebels in Carthage was defeated in the end, and Massilia was conquered by Syracuse. Then I felt the time was ready to deal with Osroene. I marched into the province of Syria, while Theocritus, who I had given command instead of Therapon, went towards their capital at Edessa. I met their army in battle, but despite its size I easily defeated it, mostly because the Osroenian general was not suited for leading an army.

2d8f695.jpg

They made several attempts to break the siege, but all failed. Soon their army was no more and all their territory was under my control. I let Philip keep Edessa, under my protection, but the great city of Antioch was mine. In the following year Phocas died and Perseus became the new King of Macedonia. And he dares to pay tribute to the Getae, so maybe I have to act.
 

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And so the Ptolemies roll onward...keep it up! :)
 

Enewald

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No purpose to have vassals, they won't let you use their armies properly. :p
 

Lofman

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Some great victories at the start, sad that it went downhill from there. Better next time!

Could probably had won if I really tried harder, more or less unlimited treasury and a vast manpower reserve are nice to have, but still it may be better to give up a province temporarily rather then completely lose armies and maybe ending up in a worse position.

And so the Ptolemies roll onward...keep it up! :)

I am fairly confident more victories will be seen. And the occasional war ending not as good as it could have since I don't want to move armies away from the general areas they are positioned in if they are intended to be defensive in nature.

No purpose to have vassals, they won't let you use their armies properly. :p

Vassals have several purposes and they are, ehm... there is... maybe...

I think I'll go with that they are nice to have.
 

Lofman

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Perseus stubbornly remained allied and paid tribute to the barbaric Getae. It could not be allowed. I moved the Royal Army to Thessaly in preparation for war. As the war began I marched into Macedonia and I met Perseus' army in battle. A fierce fight, but the Gods was on my side and I was victorious.

hrbrzl.jpg

Meanwhile Polyperchon marched into Epirus and besieged the cities. The Macedonian army however moved to stop him, and when he met them near Passaron he was defeated. However Arganos defeated the Getae in Thrace, and it seemed well. However I was driven from Macedonia, but I joined with Polyperchon's army and defeated Perseus' forces as they attempted to cross into Thessaly. Twice I won but both times Polyperchon managed to steal the glory. One can't even trust ones own brother, it is truly sad.

29qbk0n.jpg

Arganos defeated the Macedonians and took Pella, before invading barbarians could, it did not take long for Perseus to cede Taulanti to the foul Illyrians. I led the army together with Polyperchon into Epirus and the cities quickly fell. Arganos was defeated in Macedonia, but Perseus was defeated. However in my generosity, I allowed him to remain king in Pella, but if he did not end his tribute to the Getae, it would not be for long.

zwhol.jpg

The following year my son and heir, Zosimus, was murdered by his own wife, Thorakis. The deranged Thorakis appearantly thought she would be able to wield more power if her son Theocritus became Pharaoh after me instead. Rather then letting her murdering anyone else, she was locked up. Some people definately can't be trusted.

Barbarians rose in Libya, and I set sail with the Royal Army, and while they sacked Ammon, their horde quickly fell apart when I met them near Alexandria. In Macedonia Perseus stubbornly remained allied with the Getae, so I transported the army to Thessaly. However the next war would not be with Macedonia as one could expect.

2rraoh0.jpg

King Ariobarzanes of Pontus declared war and was supported by the Seleucid King Athineos and the Iberian King Vonones. I easily crossed the Aegean and arrived with the army at Pergamon. The Omens did not seem to be favourable, and as a vast Seleucid army entered Galatia the province quickly fell. However in Syria Theocritus defeated a Seleucid army near Damascus. I met up with Arganos in Lydia and marched towards Pisidia where to Seleucid army had moved. The Seleucids quickly withdrew. I wondered about the omens, and wether this war could be won or not. And what should I do about Perseus, should I wait with dealing with him? Or could I trust Polyperchon with this matter?
 

Enewald

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Push with all force against the Seleucids and crush them!
 

Lofman

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The Seleucid army in Pisidia did not reach Cilicia until the combined forces of the Royal and Asian armies were upon them. It was a victory, but sadly the losses sustained were a bit high for my taste.

29go23c.jpg

I retake Galatia, but then the Achaean League declares war, actually they ceased paying tribute as I was in Pisidia, so Polyperchon remained in Argolis to deal with them if they tried something like this. I march into Paphlagonia and meet the army of Pontus.

141s42a.jpg

It does not end well. Actually the Gods displeasure is clear as Theocritus is failing to defend Syria, and the Seleucids are once again pushing into central Anatolia, as well as along the coast into Pamphylia. The only bright spot is that Polyperchon wins against the Achaeans, but soon he suffers defeat as well. I march towards Pamphylia to deal with the Seleucids there and meet a Pontic army on the way in Pisidia. Technically I win, but there are hardly any losses on either side. And then I'm informed that the Getae have declared war. And they are joined in this by Macedonia, Illyria, Tylis and Nabatea. But still I managed to annihilate a small Seleucid army near Perga, but I fear it is not enough.

I have lost control of Greece. The Seleucids are either occupying or sieging every important city in Syria, and have also taken control of central Anatolia. I still hold the coast, and none of my foes can threaten my control of the sea. And Polyperchon smashes the Achaean army, some of it sadly survives, but more then half of it perished.

I managed to get peace with Pontus and the Seleucids. Pontus takes Paphlagonia while the Seleucids get Antioch, Phrygia, Galatia and Pisidia. The only good thing is that I now can turn my attention to the Getae and their allies and the Achaean League. King Hyrkanus of Nabatea is quickly removed from the war by a, by my standards, small amount of gold. I try to move towards Macedonia by the way of Thrace, but the Getae attack and after a fierce battle, I am forced to retreat to Bithynia and rethink my strategy.

k3mx75.jpg

I convince Illyrian king Mytilios to accept a pile of gold and he ends the war. King Perseus of Macedonia dies and is succeeded by his son Phocas. He will not rule for long. I have marched with the Royal army to Lydia and from there transports it to Argolis. From there I march towards Sparta and captures it. A Macedonian army has by then arrived in Argolis, but I easily disperse it. As Polyperchon takes Patras the Achaeans agree to peace, they get to keep limited independence, but lose Sparta and Messenia.

I march north, Thessaly and Aetolia are both occupied by Phocas' forces, but are easily liberated and I besiege Pella. As it falls Macedonia becomes part of my realm. Phocas and his family manages to flee to Persia. The Getae army has remained in Thrace for this time, but soon they will act. But I occupy Paeonia and liberate Maedi. Not until I conquer Tylis do they move. I meet them in battle near Tylis but is defeated, and then I am defeated in Maedi. It is infuriating, but in the end there is peace with them. They get some gold and goes away. And there is peace.

slmaef.jpg

I can finally return to Alexandria. But it is not what it once was. I reign in peace and not much happens, it tends to be like that when it is peace. My son Zosimus will inherit the throne after me, but didn't he die? I remember now, he is the son of Zosimus' daughter. So he shouldn't be my son, both my sons are dead. Arganos was murdered by his deranged wife that, wait I think I am talking about Zosimus again? Yes my son Zosimus will inherit. My grandson Theocritus is not happy, can't see why he is complaining, he thinks he should be the heir. They are all conspiring against me, I know it.

34gapzn.jpg

The mediterranean world at the time of the death of Oezalces (Ptolemy VI)
123rskh.jpg
 

unmerged(58610)

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Egypt has now been trounced in two wars by the Seleucids. You have ended the existence of Macedonia. Achaea ought to be next. Who are their allies? Greece will be liberated.

Pontus usually has an alliance with Black Sea states. That's one way to take land off Pontus.

For the Seleucids, some creative assassinations and seducing of governors seems to be in order.

That's if new king and son don't rend the Ptolemaic empire in two.
 

Lofman

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Egypt has now been trounced in two wars by the Seleucids. You have ended the existence of Macedonia. Achaea ought to be next. Who are their allies? Greece will be liberated.

Pontus usually has an alliance with Black Sea states. That's one way to take land off Pontus.

For the Seleucids, some creative assassinations and seducing of governors seems to be in order.

That's if new king and son don't rend the Ptolemaic empire in two.

Achaea have no allies. And have been quite annoying.

Pontos have some allies in that area yes, although while I'm not above attacking in such a way as to minimize the amount of allies that are brought in, I try to avoid doing it if it requires attacking someone I have no real reason to attack.

I think I can handle the Seleucids with a minimum of assassinations and that type of behaviour, don't like doing it but it does happen (as I did vs that really good Macedonian general, although vs the Seleucids it is mostly that I used rather mediocre generals myself).

Oh my god, what is that Gallic behemoth! :eek:

They certainly benefited alot from the collapse of Rome (and due to the fact that the Gallic provinces are the same culture they have a fair amount of citizens -> keeps up in tech quite well). The only reason they have not founded Gaul is that the Sequani are independent, and they need that province to do that. Luckily they are a republic, so they are less likely to have lot of good generals.
 

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I am Isocrates, the Grand Vizier of Egypt, right-hand of the Pharaoh and for all practical intents the ruler of Egypt. The Pharaoh, Zosimus, rose to the throne at the age of two, too young to rule on his own, so the burden of government fell on me and my fellow councillors, the Chancellor Ankhmachis, the Royal Treasurer Neferibre and the Chief Torturer Psammuthes.

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Pharaoh Ptolemy had not been well the last years, while he had never been charismatic, his erratic behaviour made matters even worse, and while he did make some good choices, such as giving me my prestigious position as his right hand, he also regrettably made his bastard son Zosimus his heir, although everyone had expected Theocritus to become the new Pharaoh. Well he died before being able to do anything worse.

Still the political situation was fairly good, the Seleucids may have been victorious recently but we still remained stronger. Our rule in the eastern mediterranean and the Aegean sea remained unchallenged. Around the black sea Pontus and the Bosporan kingdom were the strongest powers, although the Getae held control of the Greek cities along its western coast. To the west however two great powers loomed. Carthage and the Bituriges. After the collapse of Roman power those two republics were without doubt the most powerful local powers, though neither was as powerful as us.

While I saw it would be worthwhile to ally with Rome, our relations with them were sadly rather low. But we also had to decide what to do about the Achaean League. While unable to defeat us, it had caused trouble before, and it was decided that the League would have to be dissolved and the cities given the same rights and obligations as the other cities of Greece. The League attempted to resist, but it was a futile effort and Polyperchon crushed their army and took the defiant cities.

Later that year the rather long-lived Seleucid King Athineos died, and his son Antiochos rose to the throne. The new Seleucid king did not become involved when in the following year Ariobarzanes of Pontus declared war. King Pairisades of the Bosporan Kingdom and Iberian king Xerxes supported him in this. First hope was that Xenon, general of the local army, would be able to deal with this invasion on his own, but he was defeated in a battle in Bithynia and retreated to Thrace.

Psammuthes was given command of the Royal Army and the navy transported it to Lydia. Bithynia fell to the Pontic forces, but as they began moving into Thrace, Psammuthes ordered the army to wait in Mysia until the army of Pontus had crossed into Thrace and then move into Bithynia. The plan worked perfectly, the Bithynian cities was relatively quickly liberated, and the Pontic army lost a massive battle in Thrace.

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The Pontic army did manage to win a fight near Tylis when general Xenon died, but soon it had been completely obliterated. However as the war progressed well, with the cities of Paphlagonia besieged, the admiral of the Phoenican navy, one Ptolemy of the royal family, rose in revolt. While he managed to get support from several provinces, all armies remained loyal.

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The lack of armies quickly showed decisive as several rebel strongholds quickly came under siege. Still while there were little doubt this revolt would be dealt with, it is always wise to do it quickly. The Seleucids where briefly involved in fighting the rebels, but they decided not to attempt to gain any provinces and feel the wrath of the Egyptian armies. The war with Pontus ended, not in a victory as had been hoped but not in defeat either, so that the Royal Army could be brought on the rebels. After the fall of Cyprus after two years of civil war the rebels only held Achaea and Sparta, where the only real army they had managed to gather was active. But after another year of fighting Sparta fell and the civil war ended.

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A few months later King Antiochos died and his brother Omirus became the new Seleucid King. During the next year, the foolish Neferibre came into a fight with the nomarch of Greece and was killed. The new treasurer was an able man named Ptolemy. Then war came again, this time the Carthaginians decided they would make another attempt to retake western Sicily. Syracusan leader Peneus called in his allies, which in addition to us was king Nikon of Pontus, the republic of Rome and the distant barbarians of Chauci.

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Being the most powerful we took command of the war, and sent the fleet west to provide aid. The Carthaginians made an attempt to invade Cyrenaica, but they were driven back. The Carthaginians soon found they had trouble controlling the seas, so in a desperate gambit they gathered most of their ships and attacked our navy outside Syracuse.

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Carthaginian admiral Mago however made a fatal mistake, resulting in almost the entire Carthaginian navy meeting its end, admiral Manetho pursued the remains of the Carthaginian fleet and ended its existence in a second naval battle to the north. The Carthaginians made two additional attempts to invade Cyrenaica, but both met the same fate as the first. In order to force the Carthaginians to sign peace the Royal Army was shipped to Carthage and took the city in an assault. The Carthaginians attempted to defeat the Royal Army but failed as the Cyrenaican army began moving along the coast taking the Carthaginian cities of Leptis, Oea and Sabratha. Finally the Carthaginians swallowed their pride and signed peace ceding Malta and the Baleares to Syracuse and giving up all claims on Sicily.

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Later in that year Zosimus became old enough to rule himself, but he did not appear to be very well-suited to it. However he might be lazy, and maybe a bit too trusting, but have he not the support of some great and honourable men that will help him guide the kingdom?

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Not a very good ruler I guess? :p

Well, he could be worse, have at least once seen a character with 0/0/0 :p

...
but a very wealthy individual.

I assume that is to be expected, with all the wealth Egypt has.


One note; I did change the requirements for generals, while it doesn't do anything about the three martial 10 generals the Seleucids had (and the good generals I have), it does affect replacements. Just thought I should mention it.