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loki100

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The Second Delhi Conference: Global War and Soviet-British tensions

The First Delhi conference in early February 1943 dealt with the problems arising from Yunnan's entry into the war, growing Japanese influence in Tibet and new war between the USA and Japan.


(Soviet delegation - Second Dehi Conference)

At the end it was agreed to hold a second conference in Delhi from 2-5 May to discuss wider issues especially as the war had steadily expanded since late 1942. In February, Brazil had joined Peru in the axis and was adding to the pressure on Ecuador.



and in addition, smaller Central American states such as Nicaragua were becoming increasingly pro-axis. At this stage the British and French were able to hold their colonies in the north but this was likely to change as the Brazilian army applied more presure.



Equally, Soviet actions in Mexico (where the Communist Party was now the dominant political force) were a concern to the British.



More practically, British diplomats argued that their attempts to bring the US into the war on their side were being undermined by Soviet actions in Mexico and Venezuela. The Soviet response was to assert that Mexican political changes were a domestic issue for Mexico, not something to be decided at the whims of a colonial power.


(The Mexican Party, well financed by the Soviets, were able to build on popular anger at poverty)


(And link this struggle to that being waged by the USSR against Nazi Germany)


In any case, a pro-Soviet Mexico would offer a balance to the increasing Axis influence in the region.

In the Middle East, the British had reached the old Libyan-Egyptian border when
Saudi Arabia joined the axis after a military coup.



If this had occured in mid-1942 when the Italians had reached the Red Sea, then the consequences could have been severe. As it was, local UK forces in the region had already forced their surrender.



However, Africa too was now a battle zone from North to South. In the south, South African and Belgian troops were steadily occupying the Portuguese colonies.



However, in Sub-Saharan Africa, the entry of Vichy meant their troops were steadily overrunning British and Free French holdings in the region and were threatening to take Nigeria.



As ever, it was in Europe that the gap between Soviet and British intentions was at its widest. The British demanded that Italy, Greece and Portugal be seen as their sphere. Voroshilov, under strict instructions, agreed to this, but with the critical caveat – "until those regions become part of the area of the operations of the Red Army". The message was clear, Soviet military planning would not be limited by any notional division of territory – if the British could occupy Greece and Italy that would be welcome, if not the Soviets intended to do so in their own time.

This dispute was repeated over Poland. Again the British demanded the Soviets recognise the legitimacy of the 1939 government. Again the Soviet response was simple. Politically any government intalled in the currently occupied countries would fit their definition of a United Front of parties free from any taint of collaboration with the Germans. Military, the operational needs of the Red Army were paramount, until the Germans were defeated, the Soviets did not intend to operate under any restraints.

At this stage, Eden insisted that the liberation of the UK was to be left to the British. Since the Soviet Baltic Fleet was intermittently engaged with at least 3 German battleships and 1 Aircraft Carrier, and had the capacity to move no more than 3 Rifle Divisions, Voroshilov agreed. Subject to the standard issue – "until it becomes a matter for the planning staff of the Stavka".

By the 4 May, the British were increasingly frustrated. The Soviets had no interest in negotiating and made it clear time after time that the Red Army believed it was the only force capable of defeating the 3 million Axis soldiers in arms in Europe alone. The final day was dominated by the question of Scandinavia. At the moment the region was neutral and the British wanted a promise that the Soviets would not intervene.

This led directly to the problem of the pro-axis regime in Finland. The Soviets pointed to the experience of Saudi Arabia as an example that a state could join the war at any time. To guard the critical cities of Leningrad and Murmansk would take 20-25 divisions that could otherwise be used to defeat the Third Reich. Voroshilov suggested that the British indicate to the Finns that the Soviet conditions were threefold – expulsion of all German delegations and the sacking of any officials deemed to be pro-German; formal acceptance of the borders at the end of the Winter War, legalisation of the Suomen Kommunistinen Puolue (SKP) and its participation in Government. If not, as ever, the fate of Finland would depend on "the operational needs of the Red Army".

By 6 May, the conference broke up. Even as the Soviet delegation departed, the opening blow of the Pobeda offensive had torn through the Italian 9 Army at Zgurovka. Voroshilov's words had been stilted but carried real meaning – the fate of Europe was indeed to be decided "according to the operations of the Red Army".

 

Sgt Jack

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The British cannot do anything else than whine and complain. :p

Oi! We were born to fight! :p

Good going though; this AAR is really shaping up to be one of my favourites. That is, of course, as long as conflict with the British is avoided until the Germans are gone :p
 

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One would think that the Britons would be ashamed of their defeat and not rise any demands; its almost like the Netherlands demanding Japanese Manchuria, or Belgium trying to acquire everything West of Berlin in their 'sphere' :D

Is the USA still drifting towards the Axis? Its not realistic considering the USA is meant to be the last bastion of democracy in the Fascist dominated world >.>
 

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South America seems like it's erupting quite nicely. I suppose it is the status of Mexico which bothers the USA so much.

As ever, it was in Europe that the gap between Soviet and British intentions was at its widest. The British demanded that Italy, Greece and Portugal be seen as their sphere. Voroshilov, under strict instructions, agreed to this, but with the critical caveat – "until those regions become part of the area of the operations of the Red Army". The message was clear, Soviet military planning would not be limited by any notional division of territory – if the British could occupy Greece and Italy that would be welcome, if not the Soviets intended to do so in their own time.

If I remember correctly and Spain isn't actually at war with you, not liberating Portugal is hardly a problem. But it would serve the British right if you just halted on the Italian border, dug in, and left it up to them to do all the fighting.

This dispute was repeated over Poland. Again the British demanded the Soviets recognise the legitimacy of the 1939 government. Again the Soviet response was simple. Politically any government intalled in the currently occupied countries would fit their definition of a United Front of parties free from any taint of collaboration with the Germans. Military, the operational needs of the Red Army were paramount, until the Germans were defeated, the Soviets did not intend to operate under any restraints.

There of course it's a nonsense for Russian troops to lose their lives to establish a hostile government in Poland. And Poland is going to be a battleground for any drive into the Reich.

At this stage, Eden insisted that the liberation of the UK was to be left to the British. Since the Soviet Baltic Fleet was intermittently engaged with at least 3 German battleships and 1 Aircraft Carrier, and had the capacity to move no more than 3 Rifle Divisions, Voroshilov agreed. Subject to the standard issue – "until it becomes a matter for the planning staff of the Stavka".

Well, good luck with that, Britain. After all, you defended your country so well I'm sure you'll be equally effective attacking it. And remember to invade Italy too.

By the 4 May, the British were increasingly frustrated. The Soviets had no interest in negotiating and made it clear time after time that the Red Army believed it was the only force capable of defeating the 3 million Axis soldiers in arms in Europe alone. The final day was dominated by the question of Scandinavia. At the moment the region was neutral and the British wanted a promise that the Soviets would not intervene.

This led directly to the problem of the pro-axis regime in Finland. The Soviets pointed to the experience of Saudi Arabia as an example that a state could join the war at any time. To guard the critical cities of Leningrad and Murmansk would take 20-25 divisions that could otherwise be used to defeat the Third Reich. Voroshilov suggested that the British indicate to the Finns that the Soviet conditions were threefold – expulsion of all German delegations and the sacking of any officials deemed to be pro-German; formal acceptance of the borders at the end of the Winter War, legalisation of the Suomen Kommunistinen Puolue (SKP) and its participation in Government. If not, as ever, the fate of Finland would depend on "the operational needs of the Red Army".

The diplomatic AI does seem to have a remarkable habit of declaring war at the moment least opportune for its military.

By 6 May, the conference broke up. Even as the Soviet delegation departed, the opening blow of the Pobeda offensive had torn through the Italian 9 Army at Zgurovka. Voroshilov's words had been stilted but carried real meaning – the fate of Europe was indeed to be decided "according to the operations of the Red Army"

Talk later. Fight now.
 
Last edited:

Stuyvesant

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What's with all the UK-hatin'? :p The British are just trying to play their exceedingly weak hand as well as they can - it's just that the Soviet Union has no intention of sharing, if it doesn't have to. Can't blame the British for trying (I'll admit there's always a residual sympathy for the British with me, regardless of what country is actually being played - this might cloud my judgment as to the inevitability and justness of the rise of the Proletariat worldwide, ably assisted by the Red Army).

It is ironic to see Vichy in Africa act in the role of 'icebreaker' that Stalin allegedly had in mind for Germany: overrun the capitalist colonies, wear itself out in fighting the Allies, so that the Soviet Union can swoop in at a time of its choosing and 'liberate' all those areas to spread the revolution.
 

morningSIDEr

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Very good stuff. I like the increasingly strained relations between Britain and Russia. I can only hope that the British manage to free the mainland before Russia has defeated Germany, as thoughts of Russian 'liberation' of the British Isles are a bit worrisome. The situation in America looks very promising too, I am rather hoping a USSR supported Mexico can cause some mayhem there. Then too in Asia both Britain and yourself fighting over land.

Thus Germany are on the way out, although it will likely take quite some time to best them, but there still seem to be numerous enemies ready to fight on once they are finally defeated. Excellent.
 

loki100

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What's with all the UK-hatin'? :p The British are just trying to play their exceedingly weak hand as well as they can - it's just that the Soviet Union has no intention of sharing, if it doesn't have to. Can't blame the British for trying (I'll admit there's always a residual sympathy for the British with me, regardless of what country is actually being played - this might cloud my judgment as to the inevitability and justness of the rise of the Proletariat worldwide, ably assisted by the Red Army).

It is ironic to see Vichy in Africa act in the role of 'icebreaker' that Stalin allegedly had in mind for Germany: overrun the capitalist colonies, wear itself out in fighting the Allies, so that the Soviet Union can swoop in at a time of its choosing and 'liberate' all those areas to spread the revolution.

This reflects what I was trying to capture in the post. In reality, even when they had something he wanted (ie the Second Front) Rooseveldt and Churchill found it hard to deal with Stalin. Having seen the British Isles occupied since early 1941 the British can do little but demand (not unreasonable things) but they have no means to influence Soviet decision making.

As to what Stalin really was after before the German invasion, I don't think anyone really knows. From what I know of internal Soviet politics in the era I think he and his immediate group just wanted to be left alone. Stalin hated the international element of the Comintern (the people who could speak 8 languages and had been in jail to learn each of them) and post-45 was intensely suspicious not just of the new Communist leaderships installed in Eastern Europe but any Russians in contact with them.

Its worth bearing in mind that one subset of the 36-38 purges was a faction fight within the NKVD and Beria's faction represented the nationalist element. Thus the Soviets used the language of revolution and certainly backed it when it suited them, but when in 1948 the PCF (French Communist Party) came very close to open revolution they were ordered in no uncertain terms to stop it.

The British cannot do anything else than whine and complain. :p
Oi! We were born to fight! :p

Good going though; this AAR is really shaping up to be one of my favourites. That is, of course, as long as conflict with the British is avoided until the Germans are gone :p

No, I'm not interested in a war with the Allies till the Axis is finished. I think that is in keeping with the quasi-realistic approach I'm taking to this.

One would think that the Britons would be ashamed of their defeat and not rise any demands; its almost like the Netherlands demanding Japanese Manchuria, or Belgium trying to acquire everything West of Berlin in their 'sphere' :D

Is the USA still drifting towards the Axis? Its not realistic considering the USA is meant to be the last bastion of democracy in the Fascist dominated world >.>

Yes it is moving away from the Allies (the effect when you get too close), at this stage till the September 43 election, Mexico is Social Democratic so its not an immediate problem. My threat is fairly high after my attack on Vichy and goes a lot higher before this game year is out.

Heh Communist Mexico :D

I'm quite proud of that. I invested a lot of leadership in the pre-war period in building up the Mexican party. If you try & influence a social democratic govt then its very slow and odds on the allies will influence too (& win due to the ideological element), but its very easy to influence a Stalinist govt into the Comintern.

South America seems like it's erupting quite nicely. I suppose it is the status of Mexico which bothers the USA so much.

If I remember correctly and Spain isn't actually at war with you, not liberating Portugal is hardly a problem. But it would serve the British right if you just halted on the Italian border, dug in, and left it up to them to do all the fighting.

The diplomatic AI does seem to have a remarkable habit of declaring war at the moment least opportune for its military..

At the moment Spain is neutral so I can't get at Portugal overland, or till I've beaten Germany.

This is not the only time a country decides to join the Axis long after it was wise. But if the Saudis had joined in mid-42, that would have collapsed the British defense around Cairo.

Is Vichy a threat to you in the long-run?

Not really, they have about 5 divisions left in Vichy and 3-5 in N Africa, but by the time I come into contact with them its little but an annoyance. My guess is they must have at least a couple of divisions in W Africa - hence those gains, but thats of no interest to my plans.

Are there any plans for overseas operations? particulary in South America?

Very much so. In effect from now to mid-45 I am building little but ships and planes, in part to deal with Japan and in part with an eye on a war in S America. I'm not sure how to pull it off though - its very difficult to invade from Europe even if you hold all the Islands in Atlantic.

Very good stuff. I like the increasingly strained relations between Britain and Russia. I can only hope that the British manage to free the mainland before Russia has defeated Germany, as thoughts of Russian 'liberation' of the British Isles are a bit worrisome. The situation in America looks very promising too, I am rather hoping a USSR supported Mexico can cause some mayhem there. Then too in Asia both Britain and yourself fighting over land.

Thus Germany are on the way out, although it will likely take quite some time to best them, but there still seem to be numerous enemies ready to fight on once they are finally defeated. Excellent.

Well I'm sure my Grandfather would have found the idea of Soviet liberation much to his liking ... but first I have to reduce the Germans to the state where even a weakened Kriegsmarine can't intervene, so plenty of time for the British to sort out their own problems.
 

loki100

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"To Justify a Dream": Pobeda, 1 - 9 May 1943

By late April, the Germans were expecting a major Soviet offensive but had no idea where it would fall. Their confusion was worsened with the disappearance of all 3 Tank Armies from the front lines. Combined with the VVS' near complete control of the air the Germans had lost sight of the most formidable element of the Red Army.

Gehlen's advice to OKH was that 'mit Sicherheit' the Red Army would launch a major offensive in May 1943. The dilemna for OKH was where. They believed that 3 Tank was still in the Odessa sector but that could attack into Rumania, into Bessarabia or northwards towards Vinnytsa. 1 and 2 Tank were believed to be in the Smolensk-Rzhev-Bryansk sector making an offensive towards Minsk or northwards towards Novgorod and Lake Ilmen the most likely plan.



To a lesser extent, Stavka too was unsure of the proper allocation of the Tank Armies. Pobeda was conceived as a major blow designed to generate a massive pocket along the Dniepr


(Soviet troops had practiced breaching major river lines in advance of Pobeda)

and to throw Army Group South back towards the Western Ukraine.


(elements of 5 Army crossing the Dniepr south of Kiev)

To do this, the Soviets envisaged two pincers of 2 Tank Army driving from the north and 3 Tank Army from the south meeting around Lysiankia. That left open the question of how to deploy 1 Tank Army. The German Panzers remained concentrated to the north of Smolensk and there was a residual fear of an offensive aimed at Kalinin and ultimately Moscow. To strip the Western Strategic Direction of all its armour seemed dangerous. For the moment, 1 Tank was left in reserve, at least till the German response was clear.

Not only was Pobeda to see an overwhelming concentration of Soviet armour on two very narrow sectors, it was also marked by an attempt to confuse OKH as to its true significance or targets. Quite simply the primary goal was the destruction of the German 14 and 19 Armies holding the central Dniepr. Thus it was important they failed to realise the danger they were in till it was too late.

To achieve this, the initial breakthrough was to be made by the Rifle Divisions of 5 Army. 2 Tank would not be committed till the current front was disrupted. A second advantage was this would confuse OKH as to whether this was a direct attempt to take Kiev or an attempt to widen the Soviet bridgehead across the Dniepr.


(elements of 2 Tank Army being ferried across the Dniepr)

The offensive opened with elements of 5 Army attacking the Italian 9 Army at Zgurovka on 1 May 1943.



By late on the 5th a bridgehead had been secured across the Dniepr


(5 Army forcing the river at Zgurovka)

and a limited German counterattack easily fended off by 6 May.



To keep OKH off balance, further 5 Army hit the lines of the Italian 9 Army at Nosivka, threatening Kiev.


(The IS-1 was quickly replaced by the upgunned IS-2 {not least as the 122mm gun was more readily available} and its first use was at Nosivka)

To the south, 4 Army sought to pin the Germans at Dobrovelchkivka, with little expectation of breaking through their lines bolstered by the 9 Heavy Armour Division.



However, in combination these attacks served to confuse OKH and prevent any organised response.



Behind the lines both 2 and 3 Tank Armies approached their attack points. Early on 9 May, 2 and 3 Tank were in position and commenced an offensive that meant the two pincers would have to cross 150km of defended territory. The entire western Ukraine was soon to be ablaze as the Red Army sought to achieve its largest encirclement so far in the war.
 

Khazorath

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Not only was it an HArm division, it was an understrength one which stopped you.
 

Modo

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According to the Soviet deep operations doctrine, the first attack should be head on, not at the corners of the pocket. It is supposed to draw in and exhaust enemy troops before encirclement. Did the incorrect approach still work? ;)
 

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Great stuff your writing here, Things will start to get really intresting when you start to push into Eastern Europe. Who will fight on and who will throw in the towel when the Red Army storms through? to Annex or to Puppet State?
 

Lord Tim

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5th and 4th Armies to create a gap, 2nd and 3rd Tank Armies to create a pocket, 12th and 26th Armies to liquidate those pockets. Looks a solid plan, and unless the Germans have brought up a lot of reserves from elsewhere, they're pretty short of anything to fight back with in the Ukraine. Even if you don't bag two whole armies, you'll get some of them.
 

Derahan

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remember it was not untill in 1944 and Operation Bagraiton that the east front left the soviet union and entered eastern europe (except soviet union), so if this goes historically, he should experiance a massive breakthourgh next year
 

Darth Moose

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That is a nice opportunity for an encirclement.

I am currently playing DI:G. I've defeated the Western powers, the British Isles are occupied. And now Barbarossa beckons. I played a couple of months, and decided to revise my plan to get better encirclement opportunities. I wish it included the units from the Common Weapons Mod though, I would prefer to fight guards divisions.