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I love how they outnumber you but you are still winning
It's HOI3 AI we're talking about.
Notional vs. actual strength numbers are scary for some of those units. More bloody battles to come?
I'm impressed with the amount of cannon fodder provided by Germany's junior partners - they're clearly not very high-quality contributions (the way you keep slaughtering them), but the fact that so many mid- and mini-sized countries are sending tens and hundreds of thousands of men is impressive.
The numbers - informative as they are - nearly make my head spin! I look forward to seeing those numbers transform into actions on the ground. Onwards to the Ukraine!
The numbers - informative as they are - nearly make my head spin!
I look forward to seeing those numbers transform into actions on the ground. Onwards to the Ukraine!
Hmm, quite a hell lot of German formations still on the field, and more 'there somewhere in the shadows'.
Forwards! To Gomel?
Forwards! To Gomel?
Good, steady and hard-won bloody progress it seems. A worry that they still have such strength but they do not seem to be able to use it effectively at present, hopefully you can keep the initiative.
I love how they outnumber you but you are still winning
Hmm, quite a hell lot of German formations still on the field, and more 'there somewhere in the shadows'.
Forwards! To Gomel?
In one of his AARs Rennslaer is running the gambit of going back to a decision point and replaying from there. In this case, if I had the energy, it could be interesting to take the save at this stage and see if a human controlled Germany can stop the Soviets (my guess is yes, given the relative equity of numbers) & it certainly explains why so many of the 1943 battles are long drawn out brutal affairs.
In terms of assigning value my guess is that both me and the Germans are pretty up to date with the key techs. They still have doctrinal advantages, some, but fast diminishing, experience and a much better officer ratio. My Gds formations can match the Germans 1:1, and due to the tech tree from now on I get a lot of 'shock' results in combat. My normal divisions are at a rough 1:1.5 disadvantage to the Germans and a rough 1.5:1 (prob more against the Greeks and Yugoslavs) advantage over their allies.
So increasingly, my operational tactics are to hit their allied units and lever open their front lines that way.
If I redid this for November 43, the gaps become even worse (for both sides). It confirms my suspicion that I'm really out of manpower too (ie my shorfall was about 350,000 and I have 300 manpower left) and all I'm building are a few support brigades (& ships - lots of ships and railway lines).
But for both sides up in the Ladoga-Kalinin sector, you can see the effect of the winter battles.
I'm impressed with the amount of cannon fodder provided by Germany's junior partners - they're clearly not very high-quality contributions (the way you keep slaughtering them), but the fact that so many mid- and mini-sized countries are sending tens and hundreds of thousands of men is impressive.
The numbers - informative as they are - nearly make my head spin!
I started thinking it would be a quick post and I could lay it out on a map ... well perchance a bit carried away but it was an interesting exercise. Also an advantage of having played so much ahead, its not just the perspective, it also means I gain nothing from rummaging in the bowels of the German OOB, except some insights into what happened and why.
quick diversion around the rest of world (quite literally in the next two posts), then we'll settle down to the tank battles about to swirl across the Ukraine ... na zapad.
"Immortal is an Ample Word": The War in Asia December 1942 - May 1943
Having liberated Di Hua and secured all but the eastern portion of Sinkiang, Stavka had to return to the question as to what was the purpose of the Soviet commitment to this theatre.
In June 1941 and for most of 1942 this had been clear. A Japanese victory would have severed the Far East from the rest of the USSR and could have seen the loss of the vital factories and resources in Central Asia.
By the end of November 1942, the Japanese forces were in disarray, trying desparately to construct a defense line around Altun Shan. Stavka had already redeployed 4 divisions back to the Far East command and one view was that clearing the rest of Sinkiang would allow further troop reductions. On the other hand, the war with Germany was the priority and every bullet, shell and reinforcement sent to Central Asia was one less for the main front.
(light Japanese tanks such as this were easily dealt with by the 45mm divisional AT guns available to the Soviets)
(45mm AT guns redeploying at Altun Shan)
Due to pressure from the Central Asian front, a final attempt to clear Altun Shan was authorised in early December.
The Soviet offensive drove in the Japanese lines but they had brought up some fresh troops. Concerned at the escalating losses, Stavka ordered the offensive suspended on 12 December 1942.
At that, the front remained quiet until early February. The Soviets were content they held defensible positions and were tieing down a sizeable Japanese force.
The next stage was triggered by the dramatic diplomatic actions of late January and early February. By 18 January, the Soviet Far East command was put on the highest stage of alert and, despite the bitter Manchurian winter, ordered to its forward defense positions. The submarines of the Far East Fleet were deployed to interdict Japanese convoys to Northern China and Korea.
(Richard Sorge was able to inform the Soviet leadership that the Japanese had reached a high level decision as to their next steps, but for several critical weeks it remained unclear in what direction they would strike)
NKVD sources in Japan had indicated that the Japanese leadership had reached a decision as to their next moves. But what was not clear was whether this was to invade India, escalate their growing trade disputes with the US to war or to strike at the Soviet Far East.
By the start of February, GKO thought it had the answer. Yunnan folded to Japanese pressure and joined their patchwork of satellite states across China.
With, at this stage, Siam still neutral, this gave the Japanese a direct route into India. Surprisingly, the British responded quickly and sent some units from North Burma into Yunnan, securing the main passes before the Japanese were able to exploit their advantage.
An emergency Soviet-British summit was held in Delhi where the Soviets agreed to resume their offensive in Central Asia so as to relieve the pressure on the British. Both were also aware of the extent of Japanese pressure on Tibet that had the potential to threaten both India and Sinkiang. Equally, if the Japanese satellites in Western China were to collapse, the Soviets intended to ensure that they, not the UK, were the beneficiaries.
The offensive at Altun Shan recommenced on 8 February and after 10 days of brutal fighting the Japanese and their allies were in full flight.
Using the cavalry divisions for mobility, the Soviet forces consistently outmanouvered their opponents and pushed into territory held by the Xibei San Ma clique on 8 April.
(Soviet cavalry crossing the border into Xibei)
By the 23rd their capital, Golmud, was in Soviet hands.
By this stage, the war in China had become a race between the British and the Soviets. They had overrun all of southern and western Yunnan and only the mountains and river valleys of Dainkog separated the two armies.
Japan's sudden weakness in China was the result of their second fateful choice. They had demanded the US acknowledge that the Philipines become part of Japan's Co-Prosperity Sphere and that the base at Guam be evacuated.
(Japanese attack on Guam)
When the US refused, the Japanese had struck at Guam on 4 February 1943 quickly seizing the Island. However, the US, fully expecting war, by late March had taken Saipan and Truk. At this, the war between the two powers stagnated as both were surprised that their escalating trade disputes had actually led to open combat.
Despite British attempts to exploit the situation, the US refused to see Germany as an enemy and, out of fear of the USSR, were, if anything becoming more pro-German.
The result was a three-sided Asian conflict. In China, Japan acting under the guise of its Chinese satellites was de-facto at war with the USSR and the British.
In the Pacific, Japan and the US had stumbled into a war neither really sought and that neither prosecuted with any vigour.
Manchuria remained tense. The GKO had now decided that open war with Japan was inevitable, the only questions left were when and which side would initiate the conflict.
Having liberated Di Hua and secured all but the eastern portion of Sinkiang, Stavka had to return to the question as to what was the purpose of the Soviet commitment to this theatre.
In June 1941 and for most of 1942 this had been clear. A Japanese victory would have severed the Far East from the rest of the USSR and could have seen the loss of the vital factories and resources in Central Asia.
By the end of November 1942, the Japanese forces were in disarray, trying desparately to construct a defense line around Altun Shan. Stavka had already redeployed 4 divisions back to the Far East command and one view was that clearing the rest of Sinkiang would allow further troop reductions. On the other hand, the war with Germany was the priority and every bullet, shell and reinforcement sent to Central Asia was one less for the main front.
(light Japanese tanks such as this were easily dealt with by the 45mm divisional AT guns available to the Soviets)
(45mm AT guns redeploying at Altun Shan)
Due to pressure from the Central Asian front, a final attempt to clear Altun Shan was authorised in early December.
The Soviet offensive drove in the Japanese lines but they had brought up some fresh troops. Concerned at the escalating losses, Stavka ordered the offensive suspended on 12 December 1942.
At that, the front remained quiet until early February. The Soviets were content they held defensible positions and were tieing down a sizeable Japanese force.
The next stage was triggered by the dramatic diplomatic actions of late January and early February. By 18 January, the Soviet Far East command was put on the highest stage of alert and, despite the bitter Manchurian winter, ordered to its forward defense positions. The submarines of the Far East Fleet were deployed to interdict Japanese convoys to Northern China and Korea.
(Richard Sorge was able to inform the Soviet leadership that the Japanese had reached a high level decision as to their next steps, but for several critical weeks it remained unclear in what direction they would strike)
NKVD sources in Japan had indicated that the Japanese leadership had reached a decision as to their next moves. But what was not clear was whether this was to invade India, escalate their growing trade disputes with the US to war or to strike at the Soviet Far East.
By the start of February, GKO thought it had the answer. Yunnan folded to Japanese pressure and joined their patchwork of satellite states across China.
With, at this stage, Siam still neutral, this gave the Japanese a direct route into India. Surprisingly, the British responded quickly and sent some units from North Burma into Yunnan, securing the main passes before the Japanese were able to exploit their advantage.
An emergency Soviet-British summit was held in Delhi where the Soviets agreed to resume their offensive in Central Asia so as to relieve the pressure on the British. Both were also aware of the extent of Japanese pressure on Tibet that had the potential to threaten both India and Sinkiang. Equally, if the Japanese satellites in Western China were to collapse, the Soviets intended to ensure that they, not the UK, were the beneficiaries.
The offensive at Altun Shan recommenced on 8 February and after 10 days of brutal fighting the Japanese and their allies were in full flight.
Using the cavalry divisions for mobility, the Soviet forces consistently outmanouvered their opponents and pushed into territory held by the Xibei San Ma clique on 8 April.
(Soviet cavalry crossing the border into Xibei)
By the 23rd their capital, Golmud, was in Soviet hands.
By this stage, the war in China had become a race between the British and the Soviets. They had overrun all of southern and western Yunnan and only the mountains and river valleys of Dainkog separated the two armies.
Japan's sudden weakness in China was the result of their second fateful choice. They had demanded the US acknowledge that the Philipines become part of Japan's Co-Prosperity Sphere and that the base at Guam be evacuated.
(Japanese attack on Guam)
When the US refused, the Japanese had struck at Guam on 4 February 1943 quickly seizing the Island. However, the US, fully expecting war, by late March had taken Saipan and Truk. At this, the war between the two powers stagnated as both were surprised that their escalating trade disputes had actually led to open combat.
Despite British attempts to exploit the situation, the US refused to see Germany as an enemy and, out of fear of the USSR, were, if anything becoming more pro-German.
The result was a three-sided Asian conflict. In China, Japan acting under the guise of its Chinese satellites was de-facto at war with the USSR and the British.
In the Pacific, Japan and the US had stumbled into a war neither really sought and that neither prosecuted with any vigour.
Manchuria remained tense. The GKO had now decided that open war with Japan was inevitable, the only questions left were when and which side would initiate the conflict.
Not really a proper war. Notice how they just asked the US to kill them.
A corps or two to reinforce Vladivostock would be worth it in the event of war, as if you lose that, it leaves a whole load of hard fighting ahead at the end of a huge supply chain.
:rofl:
Interesting setup, Loki -- not like you really need the US on your side against the Germans, though. You've got that well in hand, it sounds like. And now the pressure comes off on the Japanese front, too. Nice.
Yeah, I can't tell exactly what the caliber is on that Japanese tank, but I'd assume it's about 30 mm. Armor typically was meant to stop a like-size shell, so a 45 mm would rip right through those things. Soviets eventually got 78s too, I think, or 76 mm. The American Stuarts had that problem in North Africa when facing German 88s. Shermans, too, but especially Stuarts. The Stuarts were relatively well matched against the Italian tanks of the period, though, though I don't recall they had many battles with them.
Renss
p.s. I agree with Stuyvesant, that's a classic picture of the SU-85 crossing the river. Man, that thing is massive! I'm kinda-sorta working on a book on tanks, so I'll try to remember that image when I try to find public domain stuff.
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The Japanese tank is I think a Type-95. If I'm right it entered service in 1935. For the time, not a bad light infantry support tank. 12mm of armour, a 37mm main gun. 45mm AT and tank guns were knocking them out at 1000m at Khalkin-Gol. If the soviet forces are using their 57mm or 76mm guns, or even the 45mm obr.1942, I don't imagine Japanese tanks will be a problem for long.
Can America join the Axis while at war with Japan, who are also in the Axis? Seems a bit odd. As for the war as a whole, your manpower problems are, well, a problem. If you can find a tank division or even a few heavy tank/SPG brigades for the far east it would make the war with the Japanese easier. Of course, finishing the war in Europe has to have priority, and if you win that a tank army and several veteran infantry armies will probably be enough to kick any potential Japanese force off the mainland.
I dont think tibet is any way dangerous to sikiang, i think you should let japan beat as much fro mbritish as they can and then liberate it for oyurself, additionally us limited war against japan gives lots of exploit for ussr, no dday for allies, thats for sure, you could start pressuring british to beocme socialist and enter your sphere of influence, if usa becoems axis it might be too late for germany, and british might feel betrayed, all goes to soviet hands!
Japanese tanks were never meant to fight the modern US and Soviet tanks. They were supposed to act as support units for Japanese infantry which often lacked heavy equipment. Moreover, harsh Asian terrain greatly reduced the usefulness of heavier types of tanks and given the resource situation of Japan, I don't think that they would be able to produce many tanks and provide them with enough fuel.
Nicely incorporated Richard Sorge into the AAR, there. So, the Japanese made things a hell of a lot harder on themselves, which should give you more options in China: race the British, or hang back a bit and focus on the Western front. Regardless, what's important is that you now get to decide how to act in the East, as opposed to having to react to the Japanese moves. Not that the Japanese appear to be that impressive to begin with... The contrast between the German and the Chinese front is enormous, as always.
So, the Japanese made things a hell of a lot harder on themselves, which should give you more options in China: race the British, or hang back a bit and focus on the Western front. Regardless, what's important is that you now get to decide how to act in the East, as opposed to having to react to the Japanese moves. Not that the Japanese appear to be that impressive to begin with... The contrast between the German and the Chinese front is enormous, as always.
Well it comes to a resolution in August ... but not August 43. I just about have enough in and around Manchuria now to defend but I need to be able to bring forces from the West if I want to start anything.
Which over the next 2 years, neither side manage. That map of the early exchange of islands is as dynamic as it gets till well into 1944.
For some reason, by later summer 43, they recover quite well from their current beating (or maybe they just decide to concentrate on China as the naval war was going nowhere)
Now, I agree with that idea ... a Soviet puppeted Japan with all those nice ships is a quick way to boost the Far East Fleet ...
Its really hard to defend in the Far East - by the time you have enough to be secure they can't breach the Trans-Siberian anywhere, you probably have enough to win an offensive war, but I'm slowly building up (about 1/6 of new units went there, and I've shifted about 7 divisions out of Central Asia) in that region. My gamble is if they attack, I can give them a huge supply headache (I have a lot of subs at Vladivostock) so if I can ride out the initial attack they will stall for lack of supply quite quickly.
I must admit, even though I like my WW2 simulations to deliver a good Soviet-German tussle, its also interesting when something utterly unpredicted happens ... in this case this war in Central Asia/West China really added both to the challenge and the fun of the game.
Overall, the Soviets were very good with military design at getting the bits that really mattered right. So as the war went on, with the ISs, SUs and ISUs there only real goal was to deliver a big huge gun to the battlefield, if that meant a large body to carry it thats what they constructed. Its a bit like the key issue with the Sturmovik - it was designed to fly very low, so a bit of the design was compromised to effectively armour the belly and around the nose, but it made a more effective 'tank-hunter' over the battlefield than the Stukas were.
I think that was the problem the Japanese had. In the 30s they had a reasonable design but it couldn't cope with the BT-7s at Khalkin Gol never mind US Shermans or what hit them when the Soviets attacked in Manchuria. Digging around for the picture, it seems as if by late war they'd come up with a very good medium tank design but lacked the capacity to build it or deliver it to where it would have been of any use.
I suspect, the diplomacy part of this game is a bit wierd due to the way I've kept it going through the patches. A few events never fire that normally do and some of diplomatic outcomes seem unusual. As to the US, I thought once the Japanese attacked it would clear out their residual neutrality and allow them to join the Allies. One problem may well be that the UK is very short of diplomats, but then they do, much later, bring Chile and I think Columbia into the Allies - so they are still influencing and sending out diplomats.
re Tibet - a bit of poetic license, but it would have threatened the south flank of my forces in Xibei, especially as I have no spare units in theatre (having sent as much as I dare back to the Far East). Overall, I was caught between 2 desires. It was handy that the British put some pressure on the Japanese but I definitely did not want them to do too well - equally I would have been content if the Japanese had driven them back into Burma (but I didn't want the Japanese picking up additional VPs in E Asia nor did I want a UK surrender - which could have happened if they'd lost badly in India).
As above, from the source I found, they'd managed to make 2 decent medium tanks by 1945. I'd guess a combination of industrial capacity and not really being sure where or how to use them.
Nicely incorporated Richard Sorge into the AAR, there.
Its one of the fun bits of trying to relate the game to history in this format is you can integrate external events or characters. Quite fundamentally, at the very worst, all the Japanese were was an irritating threat to some IC I really need, but the Germans were a mortal threat to Moscow. But, the war in China is far from over ...