The Great Patriotic War

[loki100]

Germans know that by attacking they do not have to defend from your attacks.

sort of 'damn the Russians are coming ... we'd better attack quick before they arrive"? ... well they do say attack is the best form of defense.

Brutal stuff. It appears as if things are still hanging in the balance but beginning to turn in your favour. Hopefully you have indeed managed to blunt their attack and can now make yet another counter-attack.

That more or less sums it up, that whole sector, with one short respite, remains brutal till early Spring 43, in effect I've finally decided that the answer to my 'attack-west or attack-north' dilemna is to go for the Germans where they are strong and force a resolution to the entire campaign in the North West, then I can concentrate on taking back more valuable terrain without this nagging fear I'm going to lose Leningrad or leave myself open to them hooking down at Moscow.

Overall, you have liberated about the same amount of territory as the Germans newly occupied, so in that sense it's a bloody draw. Overall, though, your gains seem far more relevant than the thin strips of land where the Germans pushed in your frontlines. In the north, the German Southern flank looks tantalizingly exposed. If only your armies weren't wrecked, if only the Autumn rains weren't on their way... You look so close to a decent encirclement, yet, given your circumstances, it's still so far away.

Still, the Germans really need to be winning big and they're not. Which basically means that their long, slow, arduous slide to defeat has begun. It's just a matter of time (and many, many dead Soviet and Axis soldiers).

The last bit essentially sums this phase up. With all their divisions back up near 100% & good supply etc, this is their last chance for a real strategic victory, if I can ride this out (& dish out some damage as I do) then the worst that will happen is a stalemate for a while. But Elstry-Toropec is either a dagger aimed at Kalinin (8 Army in that sector is a hollow shell, so if they break through it'll be a rout) or a nice juicy pocket as the Tank divisions slam into their rear ...

You seem to be holding the line well enough, although it's a concern that the Germans seem to be mass-deploying Tigers in 1942. That said, battle casualties seem much more even now than at the beginning of Barbarossa, when the Germans would dish out a lot of punishment for comparatively little loss.

I think its some combination of Lothos' lua scripts and the 1939 German OOB, but the German production AI has a real thing about Heavy Tanks. They had about 6 divs of the damned things at the start of Barbarossa and I think in the end I encounter 10 (plus a few normal Panzer divs have a Tiger brigade attached). In Tech terms, we're pretty even (esp for the things that matter), in doctrine they are well ahead, so in the main we trade losses, and at the end of the day I can do that better than the Germans can.

Interesting. Although I suspect German tank losses have been extremely heavy, and concentrated in units that have to stay in the front line. You have a possible crisis in the Ukraine, a definite crisis outside Kalinin, and opportunities north of Smolensk and in the Arctic. Do you have strategic reserves available to commit to 8th Army sector? That would be my priority. Accept that the armoured offensive isn't getting much further, try to get infantry to take over those positions, give 3rd Army a bit of support, and rest your armour for a winter offensive. In the Ukraine, any advance is going into territory that's already been fought over, so it's not the worst loss, but a breakthrough around Kalinin threatens Moscow.

I could almost suspect you've been checking my save games! That sort of is how I end up solving this mess, but not till the end of October when I pull off another strategic redeployment of a lot of armour. In effect, as the German AI likes to concentrate where I put it under pressure, I start shifting the pressure point around, each time I get a small batch of 'easy' gains, then it solidifies again.

I've got divisions, rather than formations as the strategic reserve. I'm letting the rifle divs shatter as I'm not reinforcing them. Most of them then have very high experience so I upgrade to Guards while they would otherwise be rebuilding (much better org and morale) and am feeding those units into 8 Army (hence the relatively high no. of Gds formations in their OOB), otherwise, for now, its just got to hang in there. About 15% of its strength is in the rear re-organising and then they are flung back in, or offer a weak second line.

Great read, very well written.

Any chance of a manpower comparison between USSR and Germany?

glad you like it. As of 1 Sept, the germans have only 78 left and as of 1 oct its all gone. I've got 600 on 1 Sept, 500 on 1 oct, even just reinforcing the armour and guards, plus rebuilding shatters is draining off about 80-90 a momth. Its about now I stopped any fresh builds to try and make sure I could keep up some reinforcement flow.

In reality, I'm out of manpower too (as around 80% of my divisions are at least 1000 short and most rifle divs down around 5-7000), just I can manage the situation slightly better than the AI.

Very interesting developments! I am very impressed with the AI, it has propelled this AAR from good to great! Also nice to see that it's building heavy tanks as well.
It's looking like a refreshingly historical 1944-45-46 finish, instead of either faction winning after one year.

Me too, the AI generally has impressed me. Its still a bit linear and a bit focussed on gaps, but it surprises me quite a few times, even when I think I have it on the ropes. The winter 42-43 is pretty brutal, 43 is a series of highly contested Soviet advances, punctuated with some nasty counterblows, winter 43-44 is again brutal province by province stuff, even in early summer 44, the AI pulls off one last, briefly very effective offensive (sort of like the real early 45 Lake Balaton offensive).

Why dont you try and make a Kursk like the soviets did? that area cant be that heavily defended with so much troop concentration to the south

ah another person who'se been at my save files? Once I stabilise the front in the Ukraine, I do indeed set up a defensive trap for the Germans, which they sort of chew on, but are a bit too cautious to badly harm themselves.

More pressure to the south

at this moment, the Ukraine is out of control, esp in the far south. Two of my armies down there have masses of divs with near 0 org, so its a case of trying to sidestep encirclements and pull back fast enough to give me time to recover - if anything my retreat makes my summer 41 manouvres look elegant and controlled.

 

[loki100]

"Tis Life's award, to die": The Arctic Battles, September 1942

The September fighting in the Arctic in some ways mirrored the position further south. Here again, both armies were on the offensive but in this case the different offesives were less immediately linked. In effect, the northern part of 1 Army and 27 Army were trying to hold a line reaching south from Lake Ladoga both to keep open the land connection from Leningrad to Moscow and to maintain the pocket surrounding the axis forces now trapped at Archangelsk.

Within that pocket, 2 Army was now attacking Archangelsk and trying to disrupt the main German defense lines in that sector and the freshly created 28 Army was trying to destroy the increasingly demoralised German and Bulgarian divisions between the White Sea and Lake Onega.



For 27 Army, the month started with a series of hard fought defensive victories and it even managed to retake Svirstroj on 14 September.


(improvised river crossing along the Svir)

At this stage though, the Germans completed moving up reinforcements and renewed their offensive. Olonec fell on 17 September, and the Germans held the town despite a major counteroffensive at the end of the month from 26 September to 3 October. At the same time 1 Panzer made steady gains northwards clearing the Soviets from Podporoze on 2 October.



In their drive eastwards, the front flowed back and forth on the south shore of Lake Onega. At times, the Germans seemed to be on the verge of consolidating their hold to the south east, at others, 28 Army pushed back to the south west edge.


(divisional artillery of 28 Army in action near Lake Onega)

However, by the end of September, the Germans were consolidating their hold on Lena, beating off a major counterattack in early October.



In combination with restoring their hold on the southern end of the Ladoga-Onega Isthmus, this left them well placed to sever any remaining land connection between Moscow and Leningrad.

However, in one critical sense, their relative supremacy came too late.

The desperate Soviet defense had created the space for 28 Army to inflict a major defeat on the axis forces deployed between the White Sea and Lake Onega. These had originally tried to break out westwards and then tried to fall back to the better organised German defense lines at Archangelsk.


(elements of 28 Army attacking near Onega)

Here, caught out of position, the axis forces splintered into smaller and smaller pockets. Urged on by 23.00 phone calls from STAVKA, and visits from its representatives, demanding more speed, the Axis defense crumbled.


(Soviet cavalry from 28 Army liberating a small town on the edge of the White Sea)

In the end 61,652 prisoners were taken as the isolated pockets at Volkhov Most, Ustkoloda, Vorzogory, Pudoz and finally Pyalma (on 2 October) were over-run.



However, the exhausted divisions of 28 Army were given no respite, and were immediately thrown into the line trying to halt the German push eastwards.

At Archangelsk itself, 2 Army had a massive morale boost when 20 Panzer, long cut off at Mozela, out of fuel, ammunition and supply, surrendered without a shot being fired on 2 September.



Not only did this clear out the last strongpoint in its rear, the sight of an ill-equipped DNO division herding German panzer crews into captivity was a small revenge for all the damage the Panzers had inflicted on the Red Army.

Elsewhere, although Archangelsk was being relentlessly bombed, the Germans launched their own offensive trying to drive back 2 Army. Korovkinskaya,Lapominka and Sverodvinsk all fell in mid-September but an attempt to break the Soviet defense lines at Krivo Poyas failed. This defeat also sealed the fate of those axis units trapped in the Onega-White Sea region as it stopped them linking up with the Archangelsk forces.

With this turn of events, and the arrival of forces previously clearing out axis pockets to the south, 2 Army started to probe the German lines. A direct attempt to take Archangelsk was a bloody disaster, but by the end of the month, 2 Army was constricting the German held area retaking Korovkinskaya and Lapominka.



With the destruction of the western part of the pocket and the slowing of the relief offensive, it seemed clear to both sides that Archangelsk would inevitably fall back into Soviet hands. The question now was 'how quickly'? The divisions of 2 Army were urgently needed to hold off Army Group North's offensive and to secure Leningrad's supply lines. The longer they were locked into a vicious battle around Archangelsk, the greater the risk the Germans would regain the strategic initiative in the Onega-Rybinsk sector. To OKH, the 55,000 men (some 13 divisions) now in the Archangelsk pocket were a useful pawn, one that deflected some 80-100,000 Soviet soldiers from a more important sector.

The casualty rates reflected the different dynamics of each campaign. 27 and 1 Army lost 22,885 dead and killed 17,649 Germans in the attritional defensive actions. 28 Army only lost 2,028 and killed 2,332 in the Onega-White Sea battles, but the true significance of this action was the 61,652 prisoners marched off to Soviet POW camps. Finally at Archangelsk, the relatively even fighting had led to 11,391 Soviet and 12,009 German dead (though, again, the loss of a Panzer division with 6,789 trained survivors, more than compensated for any equality of losses on the battlefield).

 

[Enewald]

Hmm, too many good pockets.
Svir should be called Syväri and Onega is Ääninen.

 

[morningSIDEr]

Very impressive in managing to pocket so many Axis forces. Good to see this area of Axis resistance finally defeated and I would imagine the removal of what appears to be a sizeable force will aid your hand quite considerably. Hopefully this is just the first sign of Axis power finally crumbling.

 

[Palm]

Hmm, too many good pockets.
Svir should be called Syväri and Onega is Ääninen.

Well, that would depend on your political orientations....

 

[Stuyvesant]

No humonguous pockets yet, but that's still manpower the Germans can ill afford to lose. Quickly adding up the numbers it seems that the Germans lost the equivalent of 90 manpower in the frozen North - and perhaps another, equal, amount is ready to go in the two remaining pockets? This series of engagements felt like a slog, no finesse here, but the end results are a very clear Soviet victory.

So, how soon do you tidy things up here and add the weight of 28th and 2nd Army to the general westward thrust?

 

[Dewirix]

So that's around 95,000 German casualties and POWs so far, with an additional 55,000 holed up in Arkhangelsk. Not a bad haul at all, especially at a time when you're coming under pressure on other fronts. Once you've tidied those up that's another 10+ divisions you can redirect elsewhere. It can't be much fun for the German troops stuck in northern Russia with winter approaching.

 

[Darth Moose]

The war goes on in the cold & dark north. A good reduction in German troop numbers indeed, though it seems a number of those belonged to other Axis nations.

 

[Lord Tim]

If only you could liquidate the Arkhangelsk pocket quickly. 2nd Army would be a great reinforcement to push the Germans back towards Leningrad. 28th Army looks like it might stabilise the front, and even let you restore some of your position, but throwing in another whole army might just tip the scale far enough to crack the German position open. The terrain and season probably prevent a large advance, but the Germans might be forced to divert troops from elsewhere. Though if the pocket is strong enough to hold out, that's a significant advantage for the Germans. Can they resupply by sea, or will the weather affect German supply efforts? I wouldn't think sea supply would work in reality, in the White Sea in november.

 

[loki100]

Hmm, too many good pockets.
Svir should be called Syväri and Onega is Ääninen.

Well, that would depend on your political orientations....

I've actually got a major linguistic task on with the problem of coping with how Cyrillic is transliterated, the names that Paradox adopted (which are mostly derived from Russian) and that the mapping software I use gives names derived from the current day Ukrainian or Bielorussian ... its not an issue for the smaller towns, but I tend to set up a map using the larger towns/river lines as place holders and then slot any others in relation to that (so I always show Kiev on the Dniepr as opposed to well to the west as Paradox does) ... I'm not sure either my graphics package or my sanity would survive using Finnish names for the lost lands of Karelia ...

Very impressive in managing to pocket so many Axis forces. Good to see this area of Axis resistance finally defeated and I would imagine the removal of what appears to be a sizeable force will aid your hand quite considerably. Hopefully this is just the first sign of Axis power finally crumbling.

those set of small pockets more or less even up losses in the Arctic, it sort of compensates for what I lost at Archangelsk and Murmansk earlier on. When I collapse their Archangelsk position I come out something like 10-14 divisions to the good on the exchange, which due to manpower constraints they can't replace. So in that sense alone they end this arctic campaign much weaker than they started it.

No humonguous pockets yet, but that's still manpower the Germans can ill afford to lose. Quickly adding up the numbers it seems that the Germans lost the equivalent of 90 manpower in the frozen North - and perhaps another, equal, amount is ready to go in the two remaining pockets? This series of engagements felt like a slog, no finesse here, but the end results are a very clear Soviet victory.

So, how soon do you tidy things up here and add the weight of 28th and 2nd Army to the general westward thrust?

So that's around 95,000 German casualties and POWs so far, with an additional 55,000 holed up in Arkhangelsk. Not a bad haul at all, especially at a time when you're coming under pressure on other fronts. Once you've tidied those up that's another 10+ divisions you can redirect elsewhere. It can't be much fun for the German troops stuck in northern Russia with winter approaching.

The war goes on in the cold & dark north. A good reduction in German troop numbers indeed, though it seems a number of those belonged to other Axis nations.

I get a bit greedy/desparate, and start pulling 2 Army formations out to shore up the main front too quickly. That means the Germans last at Archangelsk to mid-November & I'm still clearing out isolated pockets in December. But then I do need to bring their assault to an end as they are also retaking land on the Onega-Ladoga isthmus so Leningrad is threatened with isolation again (& this time I won't fiddle around with the supply situation ... in any case with winter coming and a mass of low infra provinces, the supply line is pretty poor as it is)

Most of what I've culled so far were Bulgarian or Greek units as expeditionary forces. The bulk of what is still at Archangelsk are almost all German, so thats a very real prize.

If only you could liquidate the Arkhangelsk pocket quickly. 2nd Army would be a great reinforcement to push the Germans back towards Leningrad. 28th Army looks like it might stabilise the front, and even let you restore some of your position, but throwing in another whole army might just tip the scale far enough to crack the German position open. The terrain and season probably prevent a large advance, but the Germans might be forced to divert troops from elsewhere. Though if the pocket is strong enough to hold out, that's a significant advantage for the Germans. Can they resupply by sea, or will the weather affect German supply efforts? I wouldn't think sea supply would work in reality, in the White Sea in november.

I think they are resupplying by convoy. I can't interdict over the White Sea from Vologda (I've prioritised the air attack over air range techs so far), but am logistical bombing Archangelsk. I reckon the supply stock is growing (but slower than I am bombing it) as when I suspend to let the TACs regain org and start again it has gone up. Its probably just about doable in Nov if they had icebreakers (which I can't imagine they had), by late Nov, no the place should be closed to naval convoys.

In reality, I need the units besieging Archangelsk to first halt the German offensive and then push them back. As you say a combination of the terrain, coming winter, and the relative strength of both armies in this region, there is no finesse, no real scope for movement, its whoever has the most divisions with some org left will win.

 

[loki100]

"As he defeated, dieing": The Ukraine September-October 1942

By late September, the Soviet position in the Ukraine was becoming desparate. 4 and 9 Armies were badly weakened by their defeats in Rumania and Bessarabia, 8 Mechanized Corp was now in encirclement at Polonne and a German offensive was starting in the Kiev sector.



On the line from Kiev to Uman, 5 and 12 Army initially absorbed the German offensive at Tetiyiv and Kaharlyk. The latter, combined with a spoiling attack aimed at Bila Tserkva,


(Soviet attack in the North Ukraine)

allowed 8 Mechanized to safely extract itself from encirclement. However, it was now out of position and fending off mounting German pressure and again had to fall back hastily from Bohusav on 30 September. At this point, the relatively weak deployment of the North Ukrainian Front at the end of Suvorov came back to haunt the Soviets. It was constantly off balance, trying to find a point where it could stabilise the front without actually withdrawing behind the Dniepr.

Kiev was abandoned on 3 October with scarcely any fighting but at Myronivka 1st Corps fought a desperate 3 day defense from 3-5 October to hold open retreat lines for other formations. Towns that had been fiercely contested in the chaos of 1941 were given up without a fight. However, unlike 1941, the Germans were much more cautious in how they prosecuted their offensive and slowly 12 Army organised a defense of the Dniepr crossings. A major defensive victory at Yahotyn,



and the Gemans breaking off their attack at Domantove, offered optimism that the the front would stabilise more or less where it had rested at the end of May 1942.


(German photograph from near Cherkassy showing the damage caused by the fighting)

The South Ukrainian Front faced similar mounting pressure, and, unlike the North Ukrainian formations, its units had been in constant combat since early August.


(OOB for 4 and 9 Army in late September, at this stage 4 Army in particular desparately needed to be pulled back and allowed to recover)


4 Army in Bessarabia, started to pull back, but in doing so fought defensive actions at Novoarkhanhelsk and Troyitke.


(Soviet retreat from Bessarabia)

Both were lost by 23 September, but a counterattack at Troyitke at least bought the time for units of 6th corps to fall back to a new defense line.

In turn, 9 Army fought, and lost, a major battle at Sarata. This allowed the bulk of the army to escape from Rumania, but severely weakened the handful of full strength divisions available.



With this defeat, German pressure mounted on Odessa, and the defense lines to the north of the city were breached at Berezivka on 10 October. Odessa itself was abandoned without a fight on 13 October as the Soviets scrambled to reach a defense line.


(Soviet artillery pulling back, one advantage over 1941 was the VVS maintained air superiority, keeping German bombing raids to a minimum)

Here and there, a sustained defense was mounted such as at Mykolavijk from 17 to 19 October in an attempt to stabilise the line.


(destroyed KV-2 in the Mykolavijk sector)

The basic problem was that too many rifle divisions were now so disorganised that they had limited combat capability. An attempt to restore Soviet control over the Dniepr bend failed when the attempt to retake Mykolavijk foundered on 3 Heavy Armoured Division by 4 November.



At the end of October, in the north Ukraine, STAVKA believed that they could hold the German offensive on the line of the Dniepr and, perhaps, retain a bridgehead for a future counterattack. The divisions of 5 and 12 Armies were mostly combat capable and the new line was easily defensible. In the south, the situation was more fluid. 26 Army was combat capable and holding the line at Kremenchuk, but in the lower Dniepr region neither 4 nor 9 Army would be able to withstand a sustained German blow. In this respect, the Germans held the strategic initiative in the Ukraine, but it was not clear what their next step would be.

From their actions, it was clear OKH was prioritising the Leningrad-Moscow sector, and STAVKA hoped that having regained the Dniepr, they might suspend their offensive operations in the Ukraine. The Axis no longer seemed to have the capacity to sustain offensive operations on a continuous front from the White Sea to the Black Sea, if so, the battered Soviet formations in the Ukraine might just be given time to recover.

For all the ground that was lost, and the sweep of actions in the Ukraine, actual losses for both sides were minimal. The Soviets lost 8,508 in October and the Germans 7,990. In effect, the Red Army had offered almost no resistance as it was manouvered back across the western Ukraine.

 

[Enewald]

Odessa and Kiev lost?
Disgraceful!

Well, maybe Leningrad-Moscow rail can be liberated!

 

[morningSIDEr]

The update seems rather worrisome, although perhaps it is actually simply showing some intelligent withdrawl in the face of considerable Axis pressure. As it is, it appears as if although this Axis threat in the sector is something to fear they may lack the ability to push home their advantage as the Soviet forces have kept their discipline very well. Regardless hopefully the lost land can be regained and the Axis forces thrown back soon.

 

[unmerged(205558)]

What you lost Kiev !!! Push them to Poland >8]

 

[loki100]

A quick game related question. I've just started Jan 45, the main powers in the Axis have collapsed but the axis powers in Latin America are pretty dominant. I've also got a few scores to settle with regimes like Nationalist Spain. So I think I have 3 options:

a) in any case finish off the axis, I've never campaigned in Latin America in any HOI version so thats going to be an interesting puzzle if nothing else (though by now the Soviet fleet is powerful enough to get me naval control so I guess its going to be a sequence of hard fought landings;

then ... declare victory (at least in the GPW) or

b) go for the allies - very little sport to this, even though the UK has got Britain back post German collapse they are very weak, all this would be is a Prawnstar exercise in patience as I overrun India, retake the UK etc etc;
c) involve the US in some way, its pro-axis but still very neutral, at least, hopefully, this will generate a proper war with armour and fronts etc (& its why I invested so much in Mexico at the start), if so I can add them to the axis, deal with them alone or as part of the allies.

I reckon (a) will take me most of 1945 in any case so I don't need to decide, & things may happen in any case (with all the patches I've gone through, I've had a few wierd events, esp around surrender and suddenly finding myself at war and so on), so may have no need for any intervention.

Any views on what sounds the most interesting?

 

[Caezaire]

go for South America! i've never seen that in an AAR before. Besides, if you get in a legit war with the US it should last for more than 3 years which takes you beyond 1948. You can change the end date but i've have a couple big bugs during that time.

 

[Darth Moose]

Do (a) in conjunction with (b), then start (c)! Though it would be good if you don't have to repeat a Prawnstar exercise in patience! (I suspect he is going to need some psychological counseling from his kittens).

 

[Solo?]

Spread socialism to the whole world. Hit the south and head north.

 

[Rensslaer]

Spoilers???!!! Honestly, Loki, have you learned nothing from my AARs??!!

You don't let us know that you've dominated the Axis by 1945. You make us assume you'll be making a final stand against the Germans at Vladivostok, THEN after the cliffhanger has had its effect you come back and take Berlin.



Though, for all I know, you DID have to retreat to Vladivostok before dominating the Axis in 1945.

Keep up the good work!

Rensslaer

 

[Enewald]

Make all possible nations Axis and do prawnstars.