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SteelVolt

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Dear @SteelVolt,

I'd be happy if you could have a close look at the battle plan AI. I have written an extensive comment including a test run with saves and screenshots in december (post #166 in this thread). As there was no further reference to it, I suspect it somehow got lost among the other posts before the holidays and wanted to point you to it again:


I have played several games in 1.3.2 now and while I am really happy with many improvements, this behaviour effectively drives me mad regularly. I could micromanage every single unit with better results for sure (even though I would lose any planning bonus). But the AI enemies' generals are using the same logic as my own generals, so I am quite convinced the problem mentioned there is a significant reason for the "ineffective"/"easy to beat" AI many people criticise. (Butterfly effect of idle=wasted units causing lack of resources, attrition by needless moving etc.)

Thanks for the heads up. I indeed seem to have missed it. Sorry about that.

When it comes to the redundant shuffling around of units, we are aware, and I agree that it is probably the biggest problem with the battleplan AI right now. I have multiple issues in the system related to this, but accomplishing it without unwanted sideeffects and efficiently enough to not bog the game down (the battleplan AI is in fact one of the most performance heavy parts of the game) is significantly harder than it seems.
At any rate, I have some ideas on how to improve this, and I think I might be able to try some of them out pretty soon.

When it comes to distribution, the lack of symmetry on the map means that an even distribution is rarely optimal. If province A borders a single enemy province while province B borders three, then province B will clearly need more troops both for defense and attack.
It could probably to with a balancing pass, however.
 
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SteelVolt

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henzington

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I was happy to see the USA nuke Tokyo in Weapons of the Third Emu War run. The issue was the Americans nuked Tokyo multiple times rather than nuke other cities on the Japenese Home Islands.
 

_Black Templar_

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hallo
i write a Bugreport for that and there i got tolled this is where i should go.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...nd-produktion-dont-work.996577/#post-22363080

first of all its not my firstlanguage sorry for my spelling and grammatic i played over 500 hours till now and following problems i have:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  • What the AI is doing wrong
AI makes Produkion and Division wrong, i meen that the AI can only use 10% of the Units in game. for Exemple: no one in World builds Heavy Tanks, no AA-Tanks (no AA in General what makes Bombers extrem strong), no Self propelled Guns, no Rocketartellery/mobile Rocketartellery no Strategic Bombardmand and only very rearly Pak in lategame. there is only Infantery and Motorized Spamming on ground and only wiht Artellery.. on Air mostly Fighterspamming and from Naval Side there is Carrier Spamming. In Game you never will see a B1 in France, KW-1, IS-2 or a Su-152 in UdSSR, a StugIII, Jagdpanther or Tiger on German Side.
I think the AI fights very good it makes landing and atacks well the bad performence of the AI is only because it have only useless Divisions most time. (its like playing Chess with sameone how have only Farmers)
for Exemple in most case the major countries spammes Motorized-Division 200-300 times how can easy get slaughtet with a hand full of tanks-Division. so he lose extremly much Equipt he never can build again and runs out of Oil. also the Tankdivision how they plan over time are with 300 tanks and because of that and the fakt the need so much Trucks they can not build thise divisions.
  • What you think it should be doing instead.
AI should try to get skripted Division plans and try to build the things how are needed for that and when he need more XP he should train a little bit (but not destroying Tanks for that)
also no Spamming of one Unit this only garantied that the Equipt will got lost in such numbers that AI have no chance to rebuild it bigest problem hier ist spamming Truck without Support, Tankdestroyers, Self propelled guns or AA they only get slaughtet and even USA dont have the Oil to rebuild a minus of 85k of Trucks.
AI should use all parts of tanks not only light till they get mediums and mediums till they get modern also Mechaniszed schould bild and all ather subvariants of a tanks like AA, Self propelled guns, and Tankdestoryers.

(it would be easyer to handle the Tankdestroyers, self propelled Guns, AA-tanks when you would allowed to use all kindes of them in for Exemple Tankhunter Department and not
differentiate between light heavy and midium in the Division Plan. in Real the "Jagdpanzer-Abteilung" also use what they get StugIII and MaderII for exemple and only get same Equipt when they getting completly rearmed)

Also a big problem is that AI only use the newest Equipt what i think it is wrong and makes it terrible weak for Exemple: AI never will build old Equipment like Karabiner98k again after resurched the MP-40 and so on when AI get a minus of ammunition the nation should be go back to a older version or only never stop produzing them like i do and so i need 3 times less Resources and Industries (i for exemple allow only that kind of Guns for my Infantery so tanks and Motorized can use the better Equipt, also when i have to much i send it to my alliance Contries, what AI schould do too.
AI schould try to make Reserves (not fearing when it have a plus in Stock) and not Spamming Troops like hell to garantie that every shell what is shoot can not be rebuild.

Strategic Bombers should be used in usefull nubers by Allied Froces and atack Germany.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  • What the AI is doing wrong
AI spammes mostly only CVs so you fight agains fleets with (my record i have seen) 45 Carriers without any supportship, and so they get only terrible bad.
  • What you think it should be doing instead.
Ai schould try to make a usefull Fleet how can fight vs all ather kind of Ships and should in first line rebuild losts by the Support ships and not only try to build more and more Mainbattleships. For Exemple max 4 CVs in a fleet and for every Big Ship (CV,BB,BC) minimum 1 CL or CA and 5 DDs. (i realy often kill enemy fleet with mostly using DDs in Fleet and a hand full CA/CLs and 2-4 BBs or only Submarine, without support they have no chance and get destroyed all time yes i lose too 80 DDs or Submarine but after that they never rebuild there DDs and Cruisers and all fleet get easy destroyed even the new BBs or CVs of the Enemy)
PS: German should build same Submarines...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  • What the AI is doing wrong
No one in the world build hydrogenation plant no synthetic oil
  • What you think it should be doing instead.
Countries without/or to less natural Oil and Rubber Resurces like German, Japan and Italy schould and realy need to build same of this and maybe France/vichy and GB too. Its useless to have much Military Industry but you cannot use them

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

hopefully you can fix that you will see that AI will get extremly much stronger when it can use the same Equipment like a player.


Ps: Things how are not important but i still miss is the upgreat of Kavalerie to motorbike (a low manpowerd motorized departmant with high suppression like kavalerie and mobility like a motorized but good in terrain like kavalerie)
 
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mackau

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Playing as fascist spain. I have to do nearly everything. Even with full level boosting for Japan & Germany.

About the only thing the AI could manage was the Germans beating the Soviets, and Japan beating the Chinese.

Invading France? I had to do that because Germany got stuck at the Maginot Line & couldn't defeat the Low Countries on it's own.

Invading England? I had to do that, after having to build a navy.

Invading Greece? I had to do that, because the Italians couldn't.

Invading Africa? I had to do that, because the Italians were barely capable of holding Egypt.

We needed to knock out the Raj, did the AI think to declare on Afghanistan and then move into the raj? Nope. I had to do that. At least the Germans manged to beat the Raj on their own.

Invade the East Indies to knock out a huge amount of rubber for the remaining Allies? Japan managed to invade the Philippines in 1944, but then stopped. So I had to schelp a bunch of marines across the planet and take one of my carrier groups to protect them.

I'm going to have to invade Australia on my own probably, and almost surely the USA.
 
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billcorr

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  • What the AI is doing wrong
Belgium is using its one factory to trade with Switzerland for aluminum. Belgium is not producing anything. Situation: It is now April, 1940. Germany conquered European Belgium. Belgium's seat of government has transferred to the Belgian Congo.
  • What you think it should be doing instead.
Belgium should be using its one factory to make something, not to trade.

upload_2017-1-27_9-37-9.png
upload_2017-1-27_9-36-20.png
upload_2017-1-27_9-41-1.png

Attached is a save game file.
 
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billcorr

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  • What the AI is doing wrong
AI Turkey remains on civilian economy when the World Tension is 100%. Background: It is Spring, 1940 and the world around Turkey swirls in conflict.
  • What you think it should be doing instead.
AI Turkey would benefit by switching its economic law to partial mobilization.
  • Any potentially relevant context, as many things when are crazy in one situation is a perfectly reasonable thing to do in another. For example, if Japan does not invade USA it may simply be because they are getting their ass handed to them by Soviet."
Hmm.. Can't think of any relevant context.
 
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billcorr

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There might be a pattern here: AI Greece is still on civilian economy, despite being at war for more than 6 months and world tension is 100% (OK, this will be my last posting that says, "the AI needs to get its economy in gear! Can't they see that there is a war going on?" :) )
upload_2017-1-27_15-58-55.png
    • What the AI is doing wrong
AI Greece remains on civilian economy when the World Tension is 100%. Background: Greece is at war and it is Springtime for Germany, 1940

  • What you think it should be doing instead.
AI Greece would benefit by switching its economic law to war mobilization.
 
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mackau

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Playing as fascist spain. I have to do nearly everything. Even with full level boosting for Japan & Germany.

About the only thing the AI could manage was the Germans beating the Soviets, and Japan beating the Chinese.

Invading France? I had to do that because Germany got stuck at the Maginot Line & couldn't defeat the Low Countries on it's own.

Invading England? I had to do that, after having to build a navy.

Invading Greece? I had to do that, because the Italians couldn't.

Invading Africa? I had to do that, because the Italians were barely capable of holding Egypt.

We needed to knock out the Raj, did the AI think to declare on Afghanistan and then move into the raj? Nope. I had to do that. At least the Germans manged to beat the Raj on their own.

Invade the East Indies to knock out a huge amount of rubber for the remaining Allies? Japan managed to invade the Philippines in 1944, but then stopped. So I had to schelp a bunch of marines across the planet and take one of my carrier groups to protect them.

I'm going to have to invade Australia on my own probably, and almost surely the USA.

Yup.

I even had to invade the dutch east indies myself. Japan bypassed them, invading New Guinea, but stopped completely, leaving Australia & New Zealand unconquered.

By the time I managed to get a foothold into the USA (up north through Canada, and via Florida) I'd run out of manpower completely so I was in danger of being thrown off the continent even though I'd annihilated the USA's factories through strategic bombing. Japan & Germany sat there.

Ended up tag switching to Germany to give me 400 expedition divisions (they still had hundreds more), and ended the war damn near immediately.

Poor AI.
 

Person012345

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- What is the Italian a.i. doing?
It just dow'ed Yugoslawia.

- Why is that wrong?
Uhm, Italy is knee deep in fighting France and trying to contain an invasion near her capitol.

- What should Italy be doing?
Priorities! Italy should focus on surviving before opening another frontier.

*snip*

I gotta agree with this one. Right now, in a non historical focus game, me and a friend are playing communist romania and yugoslavia respectively. We managed to get into a war where it is the comintern + Poland's baltic faction vs Allies + Axis. Me and yugoslavia have largely been holding the western front ourselves and pushing enough to distract germany enough so poland has had a back and forth with them, repeatedly capturing berlin and at one point capturing the entire northern german coast, but then getting pushed back, and the soviets seem to be getting mauled in the east. Belgrade just got captured, Yugoslavia capitulated and now I have to defend my entire western border, from slovakia to greece, largely alone against the combined allied and axis forces. This entire time, the soviets have had this weird buildup with poland, haven't really been reinforcing the main front and have been making aggressive overtures towards it, we've been terrified that it is looking to declare war on poland relatively soon. Whilst it hasn't actually done so yet, it is wasting a lot of troops on the border and forcing poland to waste a lot of troops on the border even though it would be a terribly stupid idea for either faction to declare war on each other and it does seem very much in danger of making a decision to attack. Priorities, Russia, we should be friends with poland. The bad guys are smart enough to get access with each other and poland is quite happy to give me access, so the soviets should be doing the same thing and holding the front line. Germany never went down the molotov-ribbentrop path and never declared war on Poland by the way - they declared war on Lithuania which in turn brought Poland in.
 

Brindlefox

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German AI defending Berlin from invasions is hopeless too. Just quit a game (non historical) where by early 1940, the only Ally country was UK vs. Germany, Italy, Russia, Nationalist China, and Japan (yes, Russia revolted and overthrew the Soviet Union and joined Axis, and Japan beat China and reformed China also joined Axis). I thought it would be fun to finally see if Germany could invade UK (since literally, UK vs World situation). However, by mid 1940 the UK troops had invaded, liberated Belgium, and marched right into Berlin. How that is possible, I have no clue, but I can only guess Germany does not have any troops in Germany (I wonder where his troops are since he literally has no enemies). Oh well, hopeless, play by Germany even when they don't have to fight Russia due to civil war event.
 
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Gutemine

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I´m playing a game as Germany and i send 7 divisions of volunteers to help Japan in it´s war with China . I got so annoyed and frustrated of what the AI is doing , it´s realy a shame to even call it AI. I have conquered 50% of Chihna with does 7 Divisions while Japan an China literally is doing almost nothing else then shuffling around troops . ´The AI is not able to react to new situatuions. When i conquer new areas it takes ages till Japan will notice them , it still shuffles the troops on the old paths, is not able to occupy empty spots, doesn´t support atts or helps defending. It happens on both sides so it almost equals the chaos out. There is not a single plane in entire China. They´re all sitting in homeland Japan, They did (tried) some invasions in groups of like 5-6 x Inf, 1x Mot.Inf, 1x Arm in rough and occupied terrain like mountains just to get kicked out immideatly and still landing new troops into the same spot.
Italy ( my ally ) started a war against Greece and as soon as war broke out, Italy starts shuffling its troops on the border from Albania to Turkey ( Bulgaria is my ally too ) loosing masses of Org without taking any empty land on the greek side. it seems also that the AI is not able to use propper troops for the different terrains, shuffling tanks through the mountains and attacking with them into mountains. it looks like, the AI takes what ever ist closest to fill a gap regardless what trooptyp it is, instead of picking an Inf for example from 2 steps further it shuffles the entire front. it realy sucks, you can not count on any help in any situation, cause AI just loves to shuffle 99% of the time .
AI builds only standard templates. if you can´t get the ai to build them properly give em some scripted ones or cut out all the research from the entire game. why is the AI researching when they don´t use the results ?
There is no point of having an ally when the ally is ruining your game by running wild.
PLEASE maybe get some help from either good modders or other AI-experts, cause the so called AI is taking away at least 75% of the fun and conquering the entire world in SP against an intelligence even lower then Do...Trum... gets realy boring.
 
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hillcf

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I think this is more than just bad AI and may be a design fault.

As England I am involved in the German-Polish war, currently in mid 1942. In addition Germany is involved in the German-USSR war since Jan 1941. Japan is, of course, involved in the Japan-China war, which basically froze around 58% in their favour, and has no players apart from China and PRC on that side. In theory, all of my Far East operations should be protected as they are not involved in the Japan-China war.

But, Japan joined the Axis, as it did in history. So now the three faction groups are :

Allies : England, plus Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, Raj and Malaya; France with Africa and Far East colonies, Poland, Holland, with Suriname and Dutch East Indies, Belgium and Congo, Luxembourg, Denmark with Iceland and Greenland and Norway. Plus Spain, who went democratic on 1st May 1942; USA and Philippines, after USA declared war on Germany on 2nd May 1942; and Yugoslavia following Germany declaring war on 25th June 1942.

Axis : German Reich, Italy, Japan with Manchukuo and Mengkukuo, Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Siam and Turkey.

Comintern : Soviet Union plus Sinkiang and Mongolia.


All of that is pretty well what one would expect. In terms of the wars we have :

Germany vs Poland : Axis vs Allies (24%)

I cleared Italy out of Africa quickly and Germany did not respond, and may be the reason that it did not create Vichy France. I have total air control in Western Europe, have sunk the Kriegsmarine each time it goes to sea and most of the Italian navy. As is often commented, Italy basically has no local army and has given them to Germany as Expeditionaries. I am clearing through Turkey, with good support from Raj, and plan to move into Bulgaria and Romania. I am about to move into Sicily, and Spain has declared war and is fighting in the Pyrenees. Yugoslavia has taken Zara and Albania.

Germany vs Soviet : Axis vs Comintern (50%)

Germany and Romania are steadily working east and have taken Leningrad, are moving on Stalingrad and Murmansk, and probably capable of Moscow very soon.

Japan vs China : Axis (except Germany) vs China and PRC (57%)

Basically, Japan took the North-East corner of China, from Guangzhou to Suiyuan, and froze in place. It has totally ignored Vietnam, Malaya and Dutch East indies, and had not declared war on USA. It did take a few of my Pacific islands, which were undefended and which I have recovered. It has left Hong Kong alone, and has allowed divisions from other players to take take them back from Japan. After Siam joined the war, myself with Raj and France quickly took it out. Soviet is working its south through Manchukuo and Mongolia is working south-east through Mengkukuo and has reached the top half of Shaanxi. I have two armies just moving north from Hong Kong towards Nanjing. Since neither Allies nor Comintern are involved in this war, all of the land that we take is assigned to us, which seems to be wrong and It does not have any impact on the war score. I am not sure what the deeper effect of that would appear as the wars are completed, and indeed if the Japan-China war could be completed if Japan is taken in the other two wars.

AI Issues

Canada, Australia and New Zealand seem to be stuck in growing its military and navy, especially after the Australian navy was sunk by the Japanese. South Africa has been good about supplying Expeditionary forces, as have Holland, Belgium and France. Raj has been very good at building and positioning a good army (English officers :D). Norway managed to fight the Germans for a year, after Germany stopped sending the Italians to take them (which seems to be a sensible choice).

Battle plans get created much to early and with insufficient forces, like Italy sending 1 division to take Norway.

Moving a week later on the attached save file and look at Turkey. I found Yugoslavia plans to invade Bulgaria and Romania by sea, and through the Turkey front; a Dutch East Indies plan with 2 divisions and several other ones - these seemed to be based on the idea that my attack on Turkey could be used as a base for everyone else. That really shows a need for a multiple-player planning system between human and AI players.

Looking at the China - Raj/Vietnam boundary - there are 35 Raj divisions on the border against a similar number of Chinese divisions, and both of them have battle plans to invade each other. Hell, they are on the same side. And there are 16 USA divisions joining, with another 27 somewhere on route. That is good, but it would be better to go and fight the Japanese. This actually looks like a design fault on the assumption that Japan will have won the Japan-China war and will be occupying China.

USA has 236 divisions, but only 73 assigned to armies. The others are moving around and presumably have a plan, I hope. But why is MacArthur disembarking some of his armies, who are intended to go the the Raj-China border?, on the West coast of USA?

Spain was, in an earlier pass of this, offering me 17 expeditionary forces while it was fighting the Germans, including one division that was actually in combat. I had the same from Belgium and Holland but that would be sensibly as they were about to die and I could get some of them back to the UK. I can see the same problem with Yugoslavia - I have just joined in your wars, so I must send some of my army to join in your wars. Sure, if it was the last thing you could do before being taken, then make them as expeditionary forces, but not as the first thing to do. And if you are trying to defend your country, please create armies and battle plans, and don't just leave your navy in harbour if there is a better use for it.


I am sure that i could point out more problems but one thing that i would suggest is - to look at the save files, in detail and by country, and try to understand why we think that there are issues and anomalies.
 

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improff

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@SteelVolt and maybe just a little @podcat

From what I understand from the thread, SteelVolt mentioned that some theater mechanics were cut during production. I am curious if you can elaborate on that a little?

Is there something underlying that is stopping you from just implementing HOI3's theater system wholesale? My personal feeling is that if the user could designate and arbitrarily draw theaters like in HOI3, it would solve some of our current AI distribution problems. (Especially in the case of 'horizontal' movement of divisions in a 50 division-field-marshal front being too indecisive.)

For example, divide the invasion of Russia into 3 theaters, and suddenly those large fronts would be small enough that even horizontal movement would sort itself out very quickly.

Edit side note:

On the 'horizontal' movement of divisions itself.

I don't know how the code is currently doing it, but it almost seems like it is doing this:
(1) identify an area of the frontline that needs to be plugged
(2) take some divisions assigned to the battleplan that it thinks can move
(3) move those divisions

From what I have seen in hands-off games, in (2) it is just going down sequentially from the top of the division list assigned to the battleplan and picking the first one that it can safely move to (1). I will observe more and confirm.

But, would it be possible in the code to look for the 'nearest' division that can be safely moved to plug this gap instead?
 
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Slimmins

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I am sure this has been mentioned, however...

Damn division reshuffling, random stacks of 9 divisions where they should be 1 or 2 causing the line to be spread thinner than food at an orphanage. A quick fix could be a button that spreads divisions evenly across front line territory, reducing the need to micro manage placement

Good work on plane assignment, love not seeing 10k+ fighters in Britain!
 
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Schatten51

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guys after 25 sides you still not noticed that there is in fact no working AI at all in Game but rather some *if than* trigger Code that pretends to be AI so you dont see they have simply make no one?
And since there is no AI there is also no *fixing* no matter how many DLC you buy or *fixes* you see as long they dont fix that.
And there is not on word or sign they do anything in this direction.
 
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mackau

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Did an experiment. I took USA and made them Fascist & kept them out of the war. I built my "arsenal of laziness", after annexing Mexico (because I was bored and it wouldn't matter much). I'd given USA, Japan, Germany and some minor Axis powers maximum bonuses.

Without the USA, Japan managed to Invade & Capitulate Australia. Without invading Indonesia, and while still fighting the Chinese.

Germany took Canada. Without invading the UK (which would have ended the war), while it was still invading the Soviets. They now own Portugal & Spain, France, the low countries, Finland, Denmark & Sweden.

The Germans have no navy left though, and aren't doing anything really to rebuild it. This is around 1944 as well.

Italy has done pretty much nothing. Some work in Africa but that's it.

Maybe things will change once the Soviets are taken out (which shouldn't be too long), and I've also started lend leasing huge amount of supplies to both Japan & Germany.

I'll be curious to see if they ever actually manage to invade the UK, and when.
 

grandad1982

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guys after 25 sides you still not noticed that there is in fact no working AI at all in Game but rather some *if than* trigger Code that pretends to be AI so you dont see they have simply make no one?
And since there is no AI there is also no *fixing* no matter how many DLC you buy or *fixes* you see as long they dont fix that.
And there is not on word or sign they do anything in this direction.
What exactly do you think a game AI is?
 
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