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BjornB

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Please don't post feedback collected in 1.2.1 in this thread! We'd love to hear 1.3 feedback though.

And make sure you post detailed explanations on what aren't performing well.

To quote SteelVolt:
"Post your constructive AI criticism and feedback in this thread. Discuss what frustrates you about it in a civil manner, please :)

So, if you have something you want to lift in this thread, I would like you to include the following information:

  • What the AI is doing wrong
  • What you think it should be doing instead.
  • Any potentially relevant context, as many things when are crazy in one situation is a perfectly reasonable thing to do in another. For example, if Japan does not invade USA it may simply be because they are getting their ass handed to them by Soviet."

Non-constructive or outdated feedback will be removed to make this thread useful to us.

Thank you!
 
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SteelVolt

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Hello everyone!
This is your friendly neighborhood AI developer (as many of you no doubt already knows), and we need to talk.

Even though the discussions following the recent AI dev diaries, I think we all know that it had not always been so positive.

Believe it or not, but it has not gone unnoticed that several of you have strong feelings about the AI in Hearts of Iron 4, and I am certainly the first to agree that there are both bugs and room for improvements. However, derailing threads (or indeed the general discussion) with comments along the lines of "AI is shit" is a waste of everyones time. More yours than mine, as it takes you more time to post it than it takes me time to scroll past it. And it certainly does not encourage me to talk about what I am working on.

Before you take this as an attack, I know almost all of you are really positive about the game, and even those who are less positive are still good and reasonable people even when some of you let you passion get the better of you. I get that a lot of the feelings stem from a desire for the game to be as fantastic as it should be, and I share that desire.

Bottom line is, I am starting this thread to try to drag the discussion out of the sewers it sometimes ends up in, and I would ask for help from all of you in doing so. I do welcome constructive criticism and feedback, and henceforth this should be the place to do that, with the notable exceptions for suggestions and bug reports, which both have their respective bug forums. One of the reasons I do not get involved in discussions about the AI is the toxic tone, which I will simply not encourage by giving it attention.

Not everyone is going to agree with all design decisions, and that is fine. Just remember that if I do not agree with you it does not mean I am not listening.

So, to kick things off I thought I would give you all some points about the status of the AI work on HoI4. And even more insight can be gained by reading the AI dev diaries preceding the Together for Victory launch.

First of all I would like to point out that HoI is one of the more complex strategy games out there, and we are a relatively small team developing it. I am, and will continue to be for a foreseeable future, full time on AI. We are also working on getting more developers involved and capable to work with the AI.

Given the complexity of the game, writing general purpose AI is not like making any of the features of the game, which have clearly defined limits. The AI is more like a work of art in this sense.

The hardest part of building the AI is not making the reactions to situations, but detecting the situations to begin with. Typically due to that it often comes down to pattern recognition with more variables than it usually appears to a person. Humans are extremely good at pattern recognition.

There are a ton of issues on my list relating to almost every part of the AI, and aside from those I ave a ton of ideas for future potentially interesting and advanced improvements.

I will not be giving tons of details about the inner workings of the AI, or exactly how I am solving problems, mostly because that would take too much time for me which would otherwise be spent working on the AI.

Oh, and lastly: No, self learning AI is not a viable approach. Googles success with AI playing Go does not mean the problem has been solved as such. First of all it was trained on a supercomputer, and second; in terms of complexity, primarily number of parameters and potential decisions in any given situation and the fact that HoI is not turn based in the way Go is; makes Go look like tic tac toe in comparison.

Tl;dr: Post your constructive AI criticism and feedback in this thread. Discuss what frustrates you about it in a civil manner, please :)

So, if you have something you want to lift in this thread, I would like you to include the following information:
  • What the AI is doing wrong
  • What you think it should be doing instead.
  • Any potentially relevant context, as many things when are crazy in one situation is a perfectly reasonable thing to do in another. For example, if Japan does not invade USA it may simply be because they are getting their ass handed to them by Soviet.
 
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Thank you for taking the time to explain your work to us in the forums. There are many people who just don't know how hard it is to create a competitive AI. Maybe your descriptions about the challenges you face and the solutions you come up with help everyone to appreciate your hard work here.

Please keep it up! :)
 
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Wrymn

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For people who played Torch 1.3 update, how is the AI in game? Is it better?

Or could you compare it to AI that was in HOI3, is is at least on that level yet?

Thanks.
 
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rohirrimelf

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Very interested in what people have to say about the improved AI the next coming days.
Thanx paradox for your hard work on together for victory. At this point i`m most interested in AI improvements instead of new features.
 
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Bryartuck

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Thanks for all the very hard work you put into this. I, for one, appreciate all you guys do. I've really been enjoying the mini-diaries you have been doing about your work on the AI. It would be nice to see this continued going forward. Obviously not at the same rate they have been the last week, but maybe an update twice a month or so would be nice.
 
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Voigt

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In my recent game as Canada:
First Focus for AI Germany was Rhineland, France contested this. (I am on Historical Mode!). France cleaned up the communist rebels and stayed at Maginot (atleast nothing happend there)
AI Germany declared War for Luxembourg, and after that Belgium (without Focus, personally not sure if AI should do this).
UK joined war, so it dragged me with it, I mostly myself defended Belgium+Netherlands with my 13 starting divisions, though atleast I could let France handle the Maginot. Some time later, Germany broke trough...

Some time later France has fallen, since Germany could push to Paris. Netherlands stood strong, but I had to leave.
Germany AI fought well, better then before. Didn't let him encircle so easily.

Attack on Poland commenced, but nothing could be done there.

We are long on 100% WT and USA could buildup.
I tried to buildup myself, and took bits of africa. Good job there btw, not to many, but also not few AI troops were there.

AI UK landed in AI Italy, I supported the cause and landed with not 20 divison. Took Italy completly myself, only after they capitulated Germany aided them, was pushed back to Florence (Don't forget Germany had Austria and France to push from)

Germany honored MR Pact, but after a while attacked USSR, was mostly a Stalemate.

USA joined the Allies in 1942, rather late but hey Historical Mode. USA had 500 Division to trough at Germany, but nah. Let's sit on half on my own soil (this is ok) but let the other half stay in transport on the atlantic, and don't move them. But let them eat 40% Attrition (Most certainly a bug)

Spain joined Axis, UK didn't defend Gibraltar. We could land there and push back to the pyrenees. AI shuffeled troops around, but not so often. But everythime they did we could push a bit further.

Italy was still a standstill in Florence.

Germany now pushed hard in USSR, and took Kiev.

Japan btw took China, took half himself and half puppet. Pushed into Siam, Malaysia and now India. Doing pretty well.

All in all AI improved gj, but to rather annoying bugs came into play. France shouldn't contest Rhineland, atleat guard his Maginotline, Italy should guard it's ports, Germany should help out Italy before it completely falls, and USA should really send some troops and stop the cruise.
 
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Gamer_1745

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I love this:
Ilove1.jpg

See the Poles are not fully holding the border with Germany, but have shortened their defensive line. This is something that the HoI 3 AI never did! Good Job SteelVolt!
 
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Sn3ipen

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This makes me very excited. I think it is time for some gaming.
 
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D2Net15

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Torch Update: I´ve just let a hands-off game as bulgaria run till late ´40. First of all, the improvements in AI are significant, because germany is very capable of taking poland, the low countries, france and denmark in time.

Poland: There was still an issue with undefended polish borders not properly advanced through. I think it was the case, because at this time germany declared war on the low countries. As the front in the west was consolidated, the germans attacked on the most important polish cities.

Norway: Germany tried an invasion twice, but it was not able to invade properly. Even when they got a port with some ground nearby they didn´t support them, so that they were be fastly crushed.
 
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jalapen0

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I've run 2 hands off games. In both, UK capitulates Italy by 1941. This forces Germany into a brutal mountain war with the UK. Now I know this is only 2 games and this is a pretty cool thing to happen on a rare occasion but 2/2 is probably too often.
 
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podcat

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Torch Update: I´ve just let a hands-off game as bulgaria run till late ´40. First of all, the improvements in AI are significant, because germany is very capable of taking poland, the low countries, france and denmark in time..
Nice to hear :)
 
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podcat

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I've run 2 hands off games. In both, UK capitulates Italy by 1941. This forces Germany into a brutal mountain war with the UK. Now I know this is only 2 games and this is a pretty cool thing to happen on a rare occasion but 2/2 is probably too often.
Yes, its something we have noted is happening a bit too often are are working on improving. Its also a bit of an issues on the allied side since doing this too early often make them bleed more than they should
 
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JaggedyJack

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Hello SteelVolt and all in thread!

I think we can all agree that we would really like to have Skynet controlling the countries not under a player but I think we will have to wait awhile for that. In the mean time here are things I would like to see the AI be more capable of doing..

1). Invasion preparation - Germany and Japan especially. When these two countries (under AI control) declare war the vast majority of the time they have no troops on the border with the enemy or they seem to have a weak force at the front that they then try to flood with reinforcements and it turns into a stalemate with low supplies everywhere. I have no idea if it's possible to program the AI to have "forethought" about how it wants to invade but that would be one request.

2). Usage of military power - This one bugs me the most when I am doing all the major lifting in a fight and I see my ally just sitting around with a few forces at the front and the majority of it's military strategically redeploying around the world. It's very obvious why it's doing this when you tag over to the AI and see the front lines that it has created that it could never cover or on fronts that don't even have enemies. I really really hate seeing German and Italian division fighting in China when Poland and France have not even collapsed yet.

3). AI Military Action - This one is a reason why I have stopped playing Ironman. Example: Playing as Germany invading the USSR I push and capture pretty much all major victory points and USSR is at 98% surrender. I get Japan into the war so they can capture Vladivostok and end the war. However I watch in horror as the Soviets have 1 or 2 divisions guarding Vladivostok and Japan as 8 divisions sitting by but does not attack. My men are dying for empty ground that has no value waiting for Japan to move just a little bit to the east to end the war but they don't. I have to tag over and make them attack to end the war. Two way I see this can be fixed. One is the AI being more aggressive especially when the surrender percent is so high or make it so the USSR will collapes after Germany has conquered everything west of the Urals.... I was waaaaaayyyy beyond the Urals moving into Mongolia and Siberia and USSR still would not surrender until I made Japan take Vladivostok.

I have a few more nitpicks but that's all they are really. These three things are the major ones that make me shake my head and essentially cheat "tag" to make the game progress forward.

Thanks for the thread and allowing some venting.
 
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Adrized

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I didn't manage to get a screenshot but in this hands off game Germany completly abandoned the Danish front for no reason when they were one province from Copenhagen.
 

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Dalwin

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I'll probably be back in a couple of days (after playing some) to complain about some aspect of the AI, but at the moment I have to say that based on the change log @SteelVolt has done an amazing job. The AI improvements add more to the game than all the other new features combined.
 
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