The great "nitpicky bitching about Africa" post
- Thread starter Atimo3
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Ok, time for big brain updates on things to bitch about.
First, celebrating things that were fixed:
The Mande cultures seem to have the weirdest division, being culturally close in real life they are arbitrarily divided in 2 oddly named groups (Sahelian and West African), both of which they share with cultures not related to them at all (Like Songhay and Mel).
The cultures in Guinea are divided more or less ok, but the names of their wider groups don’t make a lot of sense. Igbo and Edo are grouped under Yoruba, which is a bit like classifying Italian as a type of French.
I propose the following division:
First, celebrating things that were fixed:
- Mansa is no longer king level title.
- Ife is now a duchy.
The Mande cultures seem to have the weirdest division, being culturally close in real life they are arbitrarily divided in 2 oddly named groups (Sahelian and West African), both of which they share with cultures not related to them at all (Like Songhay and Mel).
The cultures in Guinea are divided more or less ok, but the names of their wider groups don’t make a lot of sense. Igbo and Edo are grouped under Yoruba, which is a bit like classifying Italian as a type of French.
I propose the following division:
- Mandé: Malinke, Soninke, Bobo, Bozo/Sorko (Again, these 2 are literally the same people, I don’t get why they are separated) and Marka.
- Senegambian (Or Atlantic for a more technical term): Mel, Wolof and Pular.
- Volta–Niger (Or West Benue): Renamed Yoruba group.
- Kwa: Renamed Akan group.
- Central Sahelian (Replacing Central African): A group agglutinating all the remaining cultures of the central Sahel, just so they don’t end up orphaned.
- Cushistic: Same as the current Horn of Africa culture, minus Welayta.
- East African: Same as now, plus Welayta (East Africa would remain a general catch-all group).
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They actually improved Mandé titles in general . . . but placed them in the wrong country.
The Djolof States are overrunning with Tigis, which is Bambara for "master." It is unlikely to have spread to wide usage in the Djolof region until at least 400 years into the game, with Niani expansionism to the west.
Those Forms of Address should rightly be moved several hundred miles east. And Farba, Farin, etc should be reserved for Mandé viceroys, as those titles were only employed for governors appointed by the Emperor (if and when viceroys see a return to the game)
And actually, while the Mansa rank correction is long overdue (it only took 8 years!), why has it been replaced with Maghan?
Maghan means Prince. The proper title for a Mandé King is Faama.
As to the map, it's a bit of a mess West, East, and Center. And don't get me started on the fairly random distribution of religions.
However, I do love the preponderance of small states, cultures, and religions.
The West African fashion representations are also quite fitting, and characters' facial features are generally realistic.
However skintones are almost uniformly far too light. Which is odd since everything else in the game is so dark.
The Djolof States are overrunning with Tigis, which is Bambara for "master." It is unlikely to have spread to wide usage in the Djolof region until at least 400 years into the game, with Niani expansionism to the west.
Those Forms of Address should rightly be moved several hundred miles east. And Farba, Farin, etc should be reserved for Mandé viceroys, as those titles were only employed for governors appointed by the Emperor (if and when viceroys see a return to the game)
And actually, while the Mansa rank correction is long overdue (it only took 8 years!), why has it been replaced with Maghan?
Maghan means Prince. The proper title for a Mandé King is Faama.
As to the map, it's a bit of a mess West, East, and Center. And don't get me started on the fairly random distribution of religions.
However, I do love the preponderance of small states, cultures, and religions.
The West African fashion representations are also quite fitting, and characters' facial features are generally realistic.
However skintones are almost uniformly far too light. Which is odd since everything else in the game is so dark.
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It seems like the Soninke did use it as a title for king, and it's probably better to have all the Mande using a single nomenclature to avoid confusion (after all, the biggest African realm in both start dates is a Soninke one)
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I see that there is nothing modelling the baqt, the non-aggression pact/trade treaty between Christian Makuria and Muslim Egypt that had been around for a couple of centuries even at the early start date.
It wasn't initially in CK2 either, which almost always resulted in Makuria and east Africa being steamrolled by the Caliphate. Later on they (wrongly) made Makuria a tributary of the Caliphate, which stopped the steamrolling but was not an accurate representation of the baqt.
At least CK3 Makuria is a lot bigger so hopefully isn't so easy a target.
It wasn't initially in CK2 either, which almost always resulted in Makuria and east Africa being steamrolled by the Caliphate. Later on they (wrongly) made Makuria a tributary of the Caliphate, which stopped the steamrolling but was not an accurate representation of the baqt.
At least CK3 Makuria is a lot bigger so hopefully isn't so easy a target.
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Comparing the 867 start dates in CK2 and CK3, the Catholic provinces in North Africa have been switched to Muslim. Not well enough informed on the region to comment whether or not it is accurate that they had become majority Muslim by the late 9th century or not, though.
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Have had a little bit of a play around in Makuria and noticed a couple of things.
They have male preference succession laws, which is possibly wrong. Or at least not completely accurate. The actual internal make up of how Makuria ran isn't known, but it wasn't as patriarchal as most places. Daughters could inherit land from their mothers and the kingship seemed to follow the old Kushite tradition of uncle-to-sister's son, at least from the 11th century. Possibly earlier, but as most information comes through Arab writers, it isn't always clear.
I can see why they went with male dominated though, as Makuria was, as far as is known, only ruled by kings. That could have ben because the king was also considered a priest who could perform mass.
I'm not sure how all that could be modelled, though it might be a bit much to ask to o into such detail for a single kingdom which wouldn't see much use.
Thats a minor quibble though. The big one is in the form of the cultural innovations. Specifically men-at-arms units.
Muslim sources from when they attempted to invade Makuria note the Nubians skill in two areas - their archers and horsemen. So what cultural men-at-arms units do the Nubains get? Heavy Infantry and Camel Cavalry. It is bizarre and makes no sense. Hopefully that one can get fixed at some point to more accuratly reflect the historic strengths of the Nubians.
They have male preference succession laws, which is possibly wrong. Or at least not completely accurate. The actual internal make up of how Makuria ran isn't known, but it wasn't as patriarchal as most places. Daughters could inherit land from their mothers and the kingship seemed to follow the old Kushite tradition of uncle-to-sister's son, at least from the 11th century. Possibly earlier, but as most information comes through Arab writers, it isn't always clear.
I can see why they went with male dominated though, as Makuria was, as far as is known, only ruled by kings. That could have ben because the king was also considered a priest who could perform mass.
I'm not sure how all that could be modelled, though it might be a bit much to ask to o into such detail for a single kingdom which wouldn't see much use.
Thats a minor quibble though. The big one is in the form of the cultural innovations. Specifically men-at-arms units.
Muslim sources from when they attempted to invade Makuria note the Nubians skill in two areas - their archers and horsemen. So what cultural men-at-arms units do the Nubains get? Heavy Infantry and Camel Cavalry. It is bizarre and makes no sense. Hopefully that one can get fixed at some point to more accuratly reflect the historic strengths of the Nubians.
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I can at least confirm that the "uncle-to-sister's son" succession was also used among the Akan and possibly among the Soninke in Ghana.
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I spent today playing around in West Africa (mostly as Ghanaian in the early start date) and I'll freely admit I know next to nothing about the region, but damn, it's intense. As Ghana it feels a bit Aztec in that practically the only way to get enough piety to attack your neighbors is to capture and burn people alive. I got 25 piety for a man, 50 for a woman, and burning a little kid got me 100. Can this really reflect the religion of the period, or is it just a bizarre mechanic? Otherwise my piety ticks down by regular 0.2 per month.
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From what I read, they don't appear to be the same people. Bozo culture refers to the Mandé-speaking Bozo people, whereas Sorko culture refer to the Songhai-speaking fishermen who were one of the ancestors of the modern Songhai.
I'm not sure where Paradox got the spelling, but the Qaw appear to be meant to represent the Gow people, a group of Songhai hunters who specialized in river animals such as crocodile and hippopotamus.
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Has anyone had a close look at the kushitic faith in game?
I'm plugging away at an update to west and central Africa atm and so most of my research is there but I keep getting drawn back to reading about ancient Kush, as its just such a fascinating and underappreciated civilisation. Once I finish my main mod I want to add some decisions into the game to allow a Nubian culture ruler to delve into the classics and restore ancient kushitic faith last seen in Meroe, restore old temples and the old religious capitals etc.
Then I remembered theres a 'kushitic' faith in the game already. When I looked through the files I didnt recognise the Nubian state deity there or even Amun. My reading on Kush has not been focused on their cosmology though, so I could be wrong here, but what is the state of this religion in ck3?
Is it meant to be a copy of the last stage cosmology of Meroitic belief? Did pdx just make it up? Mish mash it with non Nubian beliefs of later peoples?
Obviously i don't want to reinvent the wheel, so if anyone has more knowledge of Meroitic cosmology and belief i would appreciate your insight into ck3s 'kushitic' faith.
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Also if any capable modders could please lend me a hand with a couple of issues I'm having atm so I can release my damn mod id appreciate it. shouldn't be too major, namely:
-Cant seem to change the culture and religion of Keffi county in central Nigeria. Tried so many barony codes or what have you but still nupe and orisha and its driving me insane. All surrounding counties are done.
-Modding council positions by culture seems to be a massive pain. I had it working mostly but the spymaster position is showing up blank, other positions displaying correctly. Can't work out what I've missed here since I'm just doing the same process for each position...
-somehow I broke the localised titles I've done for yoruba and central African culture groups. I think this happened after I added some new queen mother titles. Happened once before but I fixed it. Just need another set of eyes on this I think as its really just the flavorisation txt and a single localisation file that is required for titles.
-Finally, I've tried to change Boris name via localisation file for religion where you can edit deity list etc. Simply changing the display name from Bori to Tsafi. Game just ignores this and displays Bori still. This is important as I need to change Boris name as I want a faith of 'Bori' for Kanem as well, as its my mission to kill the 'Bori Blob' and localisation for Kanem is the final step.
Thank you!
I'm plugging away at an update to west and central Africa atm and so most of my research is there but I keep getting drawn back to reading about ancient Kush, as its just such a fascinating and underappreciated civilisation. Once I finish my main mod I want to add some decisions into the game to allow a Nubian culture ruler to delve into the classics and restore ancient kushitic faith last seen in Meroe, restore old temples and the old religious capitals etc.
Then I remembered theres a 'kushitic' faith in the game already. When I looked through the files I didnt recognise the Nubian state deity there or even Amun. My reading on Kush has not been focused on their cosmology though, so I could be wrong here, but what is the state of this religion in ck3?
Is it meant to be a copy of the last stage cosmology of Meroitic belief? Did pdx just make it up? Mish mash it with non Nubian beliefs of later peoples?
Obviously i don't want to reinvent the wheel, so if anyone has more knowledge of Meroitic cosmology and belief i would appreciate your insight into ck3s 'kushitic' faith.
-------
Also if any capable modders could please lend me a hand with a couple of issues I'm having atm so I can release my damn mod id appreciate it. shouldn't be too major, namely:
-Cant seem to change the culture and religion of Keffi county in central Nigeria. Tried so many barony codes or what have you but still nupe and orisha and its driving me insane. All surrounding counties are done.
-Modding council positions by culture seems to be a massive pain. I had it working mostly but the spymaster position is showing up blank, other positions displaying correctly. Can't work out what I've missed here since I'm just doing the same process for each position...
-somehow I broke the localised titles I've done for yoruba and central African culture groups. I think this happened after I added some new queen mother titles. Happened once before but I fixed it. Just need another set of eyes on this I think as its really just the flavorisation txt and a single localisation file that is required for titles.
-Finally, I've tried to change Boris name via localisation file for religion where you can edit deity list etc. Simply changing the display name from Bori to Tsafi. Game just ignores this and displays Bori still. This is important as I need to change Boris name as I want a faith of 'Bori' for Kanem as well, as its my mission to kill the 'Bori Blob' and localisation for Kanem is the final step.
Thank you!
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The Ghana Emperor was actually a Tunka... which is the name of the starting Maghan.
African detail (as in other regions) is also bottlenecked by the distorted scale and the comparative lack of toponyms. Most provinces touching the Niger should be floodplains. There should be more provinces so you can still use drylands. Forest and jungles are used too sparingly(general situation for the map).
You will reach a stopgap in accuracy of both religions and cultures.
The Sahelian culture group makes sense except for Soninke and above all Mossi.
What is supposed to be the influence for the African clothing? Doesn't look like anything.
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Bozo are a riverine people that ranges up and down the Niger but they mostly active from Mopti downstream Most of their territory is in Songhai country so fits.
Gaw(spelled Qaw in game) and Sorko are two part of the proto-songhay that formed the modern ethnicity, Gaw being hunters and farmers whilst the Sorko are fishermen and hippo hunters. Them together with a berber Superstatum contributed to creating the Songhai
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Looking at the god names, they appear to be derived from deities worshipped in Upper Egypt, rather than deities that were worshipped by the Nubians, Beja and Daju. Ideally, they should be changed to fit better to the traditional beliefs of these people, rather than using the names of B-tier Egyptian deities.
Why exactly are the Mossi in the Sahel? To my knowledge, Mossi culture and identity emerged around modern Burkina Faso, and that there was no migration of the Mossi from the Sahel to West Africa.
So, shouldn't Songhai culture be reworked into a Qaw-Sorko melting-pot culture, rather than being present from the start as the culture of the rulers of Gawgaw? It's certainly make the region a bit more interesting to play by making Africa a bit less static, and allow Gaw culture to be playable from the get-go (since currently, there are no Gaw culture rulers present in the game).
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I've read numerous definitions of kaya magha/maghan/maga but basically its to the effect of lord/master of (the) gold. Its an honorific, but it feels like these shift over time with different rulers in the region?
In the same vein I've read that tounka/tunka means prince, but also 'absolute sovereign' or king.
It could also be that different dynasties used different titles to describe themselves (the rulers), and that the differences are basically the product of dynastic competition, meaning they are all valid, but depending on time (dynasty).
Certainly the Cisse dynasty seems to have preferred Kaya Maghan/et al. for example. Its difficult to argue one is superior as all these terms have been used.
Take the king list that has Tunka Menin. Based on the above his name could be Menin, and his title Tunka. In game he is just Tunka Menin. Similarly there was rulers at least in ck2 that had Maghan as a first name, when clearly this was their title or a reference to it. You can't really figure this stuff out unless you do a lot of cross referencing with stuff so not surprised pdx would make errors like that.
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Re: Songhai, I've been saying this... its widely understood that songhai as an ethnic identity did not predate the songhai empire (which did not exist in the game period of ck3), so logically cannot exist in game. I've argued it should be a melting pot before... which yes it should!
In the same vein I've read that tounka/tunka means prince, but also 'absolute sovereign' or king.
It could also be that different dynasties used different titles to describe themselves (the rulers), and that the differences are basically the product of dynastic competition, meaning they are all valid, but depending on time (dynasty).
Certainly the Cisse dynasty seems to have preferred Kaya Maghan/et al. for example. Its difficult to argue one is superior as all these terms have been used.
Take the king list that has Tunka Menin. Based on the above his name could be Menin, and his title Tunka. In game he is just Tunka Menin. Similarly there was rulers at least in ck2 that had Maghan as a first name, when clearly this was their title or a reference to it. You can't really figure this stuff out unless you do a lot of cross referencing with stuff so not surprised pdx would make errors like that.
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Re: Songhai, I've been saying this... its widely understood that songhai as an ethnic identity did not predate the songhai empire (which did not exist in the game period of ck3), so logically cannot exist in game. I've argued it should be a melting pot before... which yes it should!
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As I suspected then, a mish mash. That sucks, its not like Nubian history or culture is undocumented.
Elvain showed me a source he had for that once, its why there's a mossi culture province in the sahel in game. I think the idea is that they migrated south first then up from (modern) day northern Ghana into Burkina Faso.
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@elvain Can you provide this source? I'm rather interesting for such information, seeing that the sources I've read (as well as the linguistic background of the Mossi) describe the Mossi as native to their modern homelands, with no indication that they originate from the Sahel.
Of course, the lack of migration mechanics for African cultures makes an accurate representation of African cultures impossible, since you either have cultures at their historical starting location with no means of getting to their future homelands, or starting at their modern homelands ahistorically early. The Dogon would be a good example of this if they were present in the game, having been forced to migrate to their modern homelands due to persecution, and in the process displacing the Tellem people who lived there beforehand.
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I'd like to add to the most of the recent coments, but sadly, I don't have the comfort of having time for propper responses... (Y'know that I don't do short replies to complex questions, which is most cases discussed here).
As far as I remember, the author there mentioned that the Mossi first formed in the region of Dyamare on the eastern shore of Niger before crossing the river towards the areas where they appear from the history. IIRC it was based on one set of oral traditions, which claim that the first ancestors of the Mossi came from the east.
I remember reading this back when researching stuff for CK2's Holy Fury update of Africa. The traditions I found later put the origin of the Mossi to the areas where they migrated according to that tradition (the regions of Mamprusi on the border of today's Ghana and Burkina Faso), although they claim that the Mossi were there 2 centuries earlier than the tradition I found earlier. That chronology, however isn't solid either.
Both traditions, however are based on contacts between the Mossi and the Manden princes... and since we know that the Mandinke people moved there after the 13th century, it supports that the eastern expansion (expansion from the east) is chronologically more correct.
My own opinion - I think it is fairly possible that both traditions don't need to be incompatible with each other. The Mossi people could have originated from several groups (and the science doesn't find it impossible either)... and the traditions can be tied to the origins of each of them.
EDIT: Even if the Mossi appeared in history on the border between today's Burkina Faso and northern Ghana, it still is the Sahel more than the Guinean uplands.
It is quite obvious that the Culture groups in the Sahel and beyond are not based on linguistics, but on "natural conditions" they live in. That said - having Soninke in the Sahelian group and not the Guinean uplander group makes perfect sense. If the latter group was called Mandé, it would be wrong to have the Soninke outside, but since the groups are clearly defined as is described above, I don't see a problem.
I don't quite remember the source study, but I know it was also mentioned in the - now quite dated - UNESCO History of Africa vol IV, in the chapter about Niger Bend and Upper Voltaic region.
As far as I remember, the author there mentioned that the Mossi first formed in the region of Dyamare on the eastern shore of Niger before crossing the river towards the areas where they appear from the history. IIRC it was based on one set of oral traditions, which claim that the first ancestors of the Mossi came from the east.
I remember reading this back when researching stuff for CK2's Holy Fury update of Africa. The traditions I found later put the origin of the Mossi to the areas where they migrated according to that tradition (the regions of Mamprusi on the border of today's Ghana and Burkina Faso), although they claim that the Mossi were there 2 centuries earlier than the tradition I found earlier. That chronology, however isn't solid either.
Both traditions, however are based on contacts between the Mossi and the Manden princes... and since we know that the Mandinke people moved there after the 13th century, it supports that the eastern expansion (expansion from the east) is chronologically more correct.
My own opinion - I think it is fairly possible that both traditions don't need to be incompatible with each other. The Mossi people could have originated from several groups (and the science doesn't find it impossible either)... and the traditions can be tied to the origins of each of them.
EDIT: Even if the Mossi appeared in history on the border between today's Burkina Faso and northern Ghana, it still is the Sahel more than the Guinean uplands.
It is quite obvious that the Culture groups in the Sahel and beyond are not based on linguistics, but on "natural conditions" they live in. That said - having Soninke in the Sahelian group and not the Guinean uplander group makes perfect sense. If the latter group was called Mandé, it would be wrong to have the Soninke outside, but since the groups are clearly defined as is described above, I don't see a problem.
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I need to keep it brief, for my last answer took me longer than I expected.
As far as I know the Kushitic faith was described as to represent the Pagans around the Nile valley, although, despite the name itself, not the valley itself, which was monotheistic/Christian at the time already for more than half millenium.
The little information I remember about it being mentioned is:
- there were clear mentions that the Beja of the Eastern desert have worshiped the gods of Ancient Egypt. When in 9th or 10th century a muslim governor of Upper Egypt destroyed one of the last remaining pagan (Ancient Egyptian) temples, which was frequented by the Beja (who have maintained peaceful and trading relations with Egypt at the time) it triggered a Beja revolt resulting in occupation of the Nile valley by the Beja tribesmen for a while.
Also when researching information about Darfur and the territories between Darfur and the Nile valley, I found references about Ancient Egyptian idols (gods) being found in archaeological layers corresponding to 11th-12th century. The study (which I sadly don't remember and can't find) then assumed that the people, about whom we don't know nothing else about, could have worshiped the gods of Ancient Egypt.
I can assume this information (which I know the devs had at their disposal) led to the creation of the religion.
Asking about cosmology and other stuff for this religion would IMHO be quite a bald request, considering that we know little to nothing about the people of Darfur of the time period in question (and having Daju there is obviously just a placeholder solution for no better one in hand), and about the Beja we hardly know who ruled them and who were their tribes. We can assume very little from archaeological evidence. There are numerous very simple structures which suggest they could have been used for some simple religious rituals, but...
since the Ancient Egyptian temple they frequented was destroyed a millenium ago, they left no written sources about their life and the archeological evidence of their history (both pre-Islamic and Islamic) is very scarce, we can hardly judge anything about their cosmology, what particular gods they worshiped and how.
Judging from their general lifestyle and the fact that even after converting to Islam their religion is very shallow and superficial to say the least, we can assume that it almost certainly wasn't a complex theological system, but rather something pretty simple, yet based on Ancient Egyptian cults.
IMHO ideal material for a meme religion resembling and reviving the gods of Ancient Egypt...and employing game designers' fantasy
EDIT: tl;dr we can safely assume that the religion has very little to do with Meroitic Nubia and its cosmology.
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