the great concubine drain

[The Guru]

I've noticed that it now costs 10 gold to Invite to Court. the idea is ok (although in some cases I wonder why the person should be paid and not be just grateful) but it makes "the great concubine drain" look even more like an exploit.
First, it's not always easy to Invite a women to Court, but that very same women that refuses can be taken as a concubine no problem. So there's absolutely no point even trying. And now it costs 10 gold? When you can get her for free as a concubine? What's the point?

You might say, there's a limit of three concubines at any time. But since you can just set them aside and take them again without delay, you can always free a slot.

A Norse character can just start the game by sucking neighbouring courts dry of their valuable women, even if they are high-stats counsellors!!! ( once you reach the limit, just put them aside as soon as they arrive, and so there's no limit to how many you can drain).

I really don't see the logic behind the fact that women cannot be invited to Court in some cases because of their opinion of their liege and of whoever is trying to get them, but offer no resistance if taken as a concubine - it should be even harder, if anything!

It's even worse when the target is a highly talented counsellor... why would lords, often with a much superior status than the concubine drainer, let go of their precious spymaster or Court Chaplain?

I think there should be:
1) a small cooldown between the moment you take a concubine and the moment you dump her
2) an opinion equation similar to the one that determines Invite to Court outcomes

 

[Peter Bond]

Why not restrain yourself from exploiting then ? I don't see the AI doing it..

 

[The Guru]

Why not restrain yourself from exploiting then

Ah, the usual "restraint" argument. Yes, of course I could. But then I have to start devising my own rules to determine when and how I can gain concubines, and my satisfaction in playing a game actually comes from trying to play optimally within the framework of rules that I acknowledge as coherent and realistic, not having to ask myself, every time I conduct some profitable action, if I should or should not refrain from it from a realistic, immersive point of view.

At its extreme, partisans of the "restraint" argument could just accept a game where everything is allowed, leaving it to the players to determine whether this or that should be considered an exploit or not, and guiding gameplay through self-imposed restraint alone.

I might be mistaken, but I don't think that's the spirit of HIP. From what I read from its authors, there's a strong emphasis on coherence.
My post is about coherence.

 

[BigPharma]

I think there should be:
1) a small cooldown between the moment you take a concubine and the moment you dump her
2) an opinion equation similar to the one that determines Invite to Court outcomes

To my knowledge, both of these are hardcoded and there is literally nothing we can do to affect this behavior.
Also, yes, you are correct that HIP is built to be coherent, but the emphasis is generally on constructing and refining general game mechanics, not hammering out special case exploits.

 

[zijistark]

Yeah, while your point regarding the concubine exploit in Crusader Kings II, maintained by Paradox, is indeed correct, if we could've reasonably done anything about this in HIP (EMF), we already would have done so. Ergo, your criticism would be better spent in the main CK Suggestions forum.

The fact that there are now [again] some minimal costs associated with bringing someone to your court from another location and liege is totally independent from the concubine exploit. Would you have me remove the realistic cost on Invite to Court to try to "make it more evenly stupid," as most of your criticism rests upon?

 

[The Guru]

The fact that there are now [again] some minimal costs associated with bringing someone to your court from another location and liege is totally independent from the concubine exploit. Would you have me remove the realistic cost on Invite to Court to try to "make it more evenly stupid," as most of your criticism rests upon?

Not in the slightest
I didn't know it was hardcoded and that there was nothing to do. So be it. I had mentioned the issue once on the general forum but folks there seem to be a lot less responsive to the coherence argument. ( A while ago I had vehemently argued there against the possibility of dragging and enlisting men that hated you from foreign courts just by inviting their wives. Although Paradox ended up fixing it, most of the comments I got there were negative - - generally of the "we like it, if you don't just abstain" type.)

 

[zijistark]

Not in the slightest
I didn't know it was hardcoded and that there was nothing to do. So be it. I had mentioned the issue once on the general forum but folks there seem to be a lot less responsive to the coherence argument. ( A while ago I had vehemently argued there against the possibility of dragging and enlisting men that hated you from foreign courts just by inviting their wives. Although Paradox ended up fixing it, most of the comments I got there were negative - - generally of the "we like it, if you don't just abstain" type.)

Not intending to be elitist, but the general forums definitely do require much more patience and diplomacy than they should -- and, even so, any hint of criticism of Paradox in them usually does not go well due to a certain class of reactionary Paradoxians. Nevertheless, it's probably worthwhile to try make points such as this one there or the Suggestions forum, because yeah, talking to us about this one just isn't going to help anything.

 

[Roguedemon]

if we could've reasonably done anything about this in HIP (EMF), we already would have done so.

I know the GOT mod limits who you can take as concubines; generally you can only take slaves or captives as concubines, and some religions can also take lovers as concubines.

In that mod there is a targeted decision that is used to take concubines according to various rules, aswell as an event that allows you to choose from a selection of women as a concubine when you raid a holding. As far as I can tell, the normal diplomacy action is simply disabled - so if that's where the issue lies, targeted decisions could serve as a workaround.

While 'inviting' women to your court via the concubine action is at worst a minor exploit, and probably not at the top of your list, such restrictions could serve to make the concubine system as a whole feel less gamey - rather than immediately taking the maximum number of concubines your religion allows for, you would instead only gain consorts in ways that made sense for your character at the time. It would also, if it was felt desirable, open up the possibilities of having different rules for concubines in different religions or cultures.

Ultimately its not really much of a big deal, but I definitely enjoy the concubine system of the game of thrones mod a lot more than the vanilla system which does feel very gamey.

 

[Ecnahc]

CKII is sadly nearing the end of its developmental life, and there are many minor problems only the developers can fix. Player exploits really aren't a concern IMO when the game is played alone, as you can just use self discipline. They are an issue in Multiplayer Games, but CKII's multiplayer community is very small, and it is still not very stable.

Their suggestions forum is where these things need to be brought up, and maybe Paradox will do something about it if it strikes their fancy. Most of the things people start threads in the HIP forum asking for are hard-coded, and just not something the HIP team can do anything about. After so many years, so much stuff has been added. So very much, and you have to remember this is a mod where the team can't even accept donations. I would dare say almost every improvement upon the current state of the CKII engine that a modder could implement has been in HIP. Rylock's new ERE mechanics are the largest implementation to the "realism, mechanics adding, and bug fixing" mod community in awhile.

This post has given me some ideas to improve my chances in multiplayer games, however.

 

[The Guru]

While 'inviting' women to your court via the concubine action is at worst a minor exploit

Admittedly, it's certainly not game-breaking. But the ability to drain every foreign court within range of their non-married female spymasters and chaplains is not negligible.

it's probably worthwhile to try make points such as this one there or the Suggestions forum

Yeah, I guess I'll try, if I find the energy. I just know the outcome already.
But hey, let's be fair, when I posted the thing about inviting the wife to get the husband, I got like a zillion "disagrees", and comments not always very gentleman-like, and then Paradox fixed it in its next patch. So, who knows...

 

[DC123456789]

Well, you know, if you post it in the suggestions forum, you at least have a non-zero chance of it getting it fixed. I'm almost completely certain that most discussions in this forum will never be seen by a dev, ever.