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Illusori

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So take this as an inspire for the future: Dont release a game until it is done

No software is ever "done". :)

There is always something more that can be improved.

There comes a point though when you have to decide that the best improvement to the product comes from "it works well enough for us, and it's going to cost us more in development time to fix the remaining things we're aware of than to release it and see what breaks that we haven't found yet, and fix those things instead".

Basically at some point you can spend 2 months fiddling with something that improves the software by 5%, or you can release it to a wider audience and find out the next day that there's something you missed that could be fixed in a week and that the audience is telling you will improve the product by 20%.

In an ideal world you'd do both, we live in a world of finite resources though, so sometimes you just need to find out from your customers what their priorities are, and for various reasons, the most practical and economically sane way of doing this is releasing the product and patching it up after release.
 

koontz

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why not an arma 2.0 instead? Why fix something that isnt broken? :rolleyes:
 

unmerged(154518)

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I have the right to post my opinions same as anyone else.I just am looking for answers same as everyone else.You are not a moderator.:D

Perhaps so, but when you and the other fanboys like superhaze go around telling people with valid complaints to essentially shut their yaps, you contribute nothing whatsoever to the improvement of the game. If you don't like the complaints, then man up and pass by the threads that upset you so.

And bairdlander, stop reposting that idiotic developers whinge wherever you go. Once was enough.
 

unmerged(154518)

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@Geezuz

you have surely a valid point, as, like you point out, you did not know the underlying paradox model, and it is part of the paradox dilemma. Since it natural in a market organized economy to widen the own market share, paradox tries to reach more and more new customers, which do not necesseraly want to become a spontaneous supporter of their model. And thats why I think that re-considering this model is absotuly necessary for paradox as their market share continues to grow. As I already wrote, I think that the stardock model is much more clear and fair, to both, the developper and the player, and make their corresponding interests (the developpers want to make great games and have a living from it, the player wants to play great games and support those who makes them) meet in a fine way, as everyone knows he is investing in a product which is not in a finished state when he gets it but eventually gets there, and this model assures such games are economically doable.

Good point. Stardock games are as at least as complex as Paradox games, and they manage to release completed projects with few bugs - and a much, much better AI. Perhaps Paradox should hire the Stardock crew to help them out with HOI4.
 

bairdlander

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Perhaps so, but when you and the other fanboys like superhaze go around telling people with valid complaints to essentially shut their yaps, you contribute nothing whatsoever to the improvement of the game. If you don't like the complaints, then man up and pass by the threads that upset you so.

And bairdlander, stop reposting that idiotic developers whinge wherever you go. Once was enough.

I never once told anyone to "shut up".I never said I dont like complaints.I dont know what a "fanboy" is,though I did watch a movie called Fanboys,it was about Star Wars.The developers "whinge"(never heard that word either) is simply posted to help people understand what goes on behind the scenes.Fact is no pc game released is perfect and bug free and hopefully the developers "whinge" will help you to realize this fact.:D:D
 

enael

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for pupet , yes they often ruin game. As my first game is dead i took time with photoshop to explain what happened.
in order:
- i puppet shanxy
- i get china
- i invade thailand but here my puppets kill me

i have few supply and shanxy send all his army to help me :wacko:. i have to take saigon with marines now otherwise i need 10 years to capture it by land :mad:

puppet1.jpg

puppet2.jpg
 

bairdlander

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Listen bairdlander, this the 4th thread that I can count where you post the same thing.

The developers quote is simply posted to help people understand what goes on behind the scenes.Fact is no pc game released is perfect and bug free and hopefully the developers quote will help you to realize this fact.Hope you enjoyed reading it and hope it gave you some insight.:D:D:D:D
 

unmerged(154518)

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It has been said many times. The problem was not being unaware of the bugs. The problem most likely was that for some contractual reason or whatever Paradox had to release. Management decision if you like. It is easy to get upset about this but we don't know what was going on behind the scenes to be a judge and Paradox won't tell us.

What you don't realize is that it doesn't matter at all "what was going on behind the scenes". This is completely, utterly irrelevent to the customer. The customer is not an employee of the game company.

The customer, who paid his hard-earned cash for a game that works as advertised (or close to it) got a game that was unfinished and by patch 1.2 is still unfinished. That isn't acceptable.

As a customer who isn't a drooling fanboy, I don't care about Paradox's internal politics or procedures. All I care about is getting what I paid for. If I'm not getting what I paid for then I have every right to be angry and to feel like I've been screwed by a con job.
 

gwailo247

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I wonder why I never have ANY of these problems in my playthroughs. Japan wins, attacks US. Germany does its part, I do my part, US joins after JAP attack. Russia is full of cannonfodder. All is working like it should (with some minor issues), and I cannot understand what I am doing different from so many people on these boards.

So what's your point? You're obviously implying that the game WAD so then it must be just the rest of us somehow doing it. Did we not install it right? Did I pick the wrong choice when outlawing Communist countries?

I'm happy the game works great for you, but my AI, and the AI of a lot of other players on this board does not. So you're not really helping here. The OP wants to vent, let him vent. Posts like "my game works fine, what's your problem" don't help.
 

agibaer

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Well, for anyone who's fed up with the supply thingy, just go to common/defines.lua and change all the negative supply impacts to zero.
 

telesien

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HoI3 manged two things for me
1) I won't buy it for some time, since like this I can't enjoy playing it even a little
2) I can't play HoI2 anymore, since I actually like the new command tree too much...

Well, two games killed by one hurried release.....
 

AJL

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The strangest new thing for me is how the Army AI has temporary bouts of insanity. As Japan I had 3 armies invading Shanxi, 1 army hitting NE Nat Chi and 1 army hitting the Shanghai area for my invasion... well the 3 armies dealing with Shanxi/Comm Chi did their job same old same old, but the other 2 went berserk on me... even though I did things as I always had... I tried everything from changing their stance to changing their objective, but mostly they just did odd things like....

1) Retreat from ground taken despite having superior numbers and having an objective a few provinces ahead
2) Form a long line perpendicular to the objective province and sit there
3) Every division run into one province and do nothing (despite changing objective to something like 'defend these 3 provinces you already hold)

I tried to rationalize the behavior... but it's just assinine... the provinces they are retreating to are often worthless pieces of mountains, even giving up Shanghai once until I caught on!

Odder still was when I took Nat Chi and had to move my armies towards G. Clique I set an objective of Guangzhou for one of my armies and they literally formed a conga line spannign all of China... 1 division per province stretching north and south like they were going to march in single-file, but then stopped and would not enter G.C.'s territory. My other armies obliged, though... and I had the same stance/objectives set... so it's just inexplicable.

I wish I was the only ones that noticed all of those problems but right now I am hanging out with a group of 4 other HoI fans that got together to have an HoI 3 marathon/party this weekend and so both people that have tried to play as Japan and China (other then me) have had the same experience.
 

aelbric

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Again from the list you put up it's obvious you're looking for a close to reality simulation of the war which the Hearts of Iron series has never really been. It's the mods like CORE and WiF that bring it to a realistic level, the vanilla games really only strive to give the appearance of WW2 with the possibility of outcomes of history being changed from both player and AI controlled. factions.

I am not looking for a scripted game, but seriously.

Assuming you start with the historical situation and run sandbox from there, some things should be incredibly difficult to pull off. Switzerland, Sweden, and Turkey joining the Allies every game despite me doing everything I can to stop it is simply ridiculous. And don't even get me started on Finland.

As for as Italy getting involved in wars, the AI just committed national suicide. At war with the UK with no troops guarding their possessions, they decide to go to war with not one but FOUR land connected opponents. They are in the Axis so troop transit should be automatic. In fact, there isn't even a button for it in the diplo screen:

hoi31x.png


And another thing. Can someone tell me exactly what happened to the German Navy here? Everytime they rebase to a port in occupied territory, the fleet gets a "?" icon and the ships disappear. My entire fleet has vanished but I have empty counters with leaders in charge.

hoi32.png


hoi33.png



As the OP stated, "The game is playable but playing is pointless". What I can't even fathom is that 2 hours in the hands of a beta tester didn't uncover 90% of these issues. They aren't exactly difficult to reproduce.
 

Vulture

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RIGHT,

Put a sock in it! I'm talking to the people yelling 'FANBOY1111!' and 'TROLL1111!' back and forth.

Stop.
It.
Now.

Or suffer the consequences. The normal people may continue their posting :p
 

Wolfbat Borgia

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Game released too early

I honestly don't understand why some people are so tolerant of game companies not delivering working games. We paid $40 for this game and over a month since its release we still have game breaking bugs like allies going to war with each other. We've been patient, there are been two patches and a hot fix, and yet such basic things are still broken and the AI is still extraordinarily poor. It's very, very frustrating.

I fully agree with you. HoI2 was also very buggy the first months until a good enough patch came up. Sad to say, but I havent bought HoI3 yet... Im awaiting the development to see if a patch that actually fix the basic problems arrive until I buy the game... As of what I read here on the forum these days the 1.2 patch is not good enough to buy a game that I will spend hours, days and months (and hopefully years!) playing. Anyway, at the end Im sure it is people here on the forum and mods that will root out the last bugs, as that is what's happening with HoI2 DDA these days.

I really want to start playing HoI3 NOW, but I know that I will just be disappointed if I started with the 1.2 patch. :(
 

unmerged(138184)

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The OP is just expressing frustration that he put a lot of time and effort in and that a ridiculous bug ruined his game. That's all valid criticism.

It is frustrating that this bug remains and was not fixed. But, I do think the primary focus for 1.2 - per Johan - was to improve performance. Which it did.

I think the real issue for this game will depend on how rapidly PI acts to deal with some persistent problems for the next patch (puppet/ally wars, supply, weather, THEATRE AND PRODUCTION AI.)

If PI works these out in fairly expeditious fashion, then I for one will certainly cut them slack for the ridiculously broken state of the game on release.
 

AJL

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As I mentioned previously, the Japanese getting creamed by the Chinese in nearly every game is, at heart, a supply problem. Supplying through a puppet seems to be really messed up, so the Japs end up out of supply after passing through Manchuko. I fixed this, like so:

- Manchuko is now annexed territory. This was the actual situation historically anyway, as the entire Manchu government consisted of a half-dozen officials who rubber-stamped Japanese directives, all housed in a single small building. Manchuko didn't qualify as a puppet even by HOI standards. If Korea, which did have its own semi-independent government, isn't a puppet, then Manchuko has no business being one either.

- If the Japs conquer and puppet Shanxi, an event fires which forces them to annex it.

These two things essentially secure Jap supply lines from Korea to Nat China. With supply lines intact the Japs will beat the Nat Chinese in two out of every three games.

I also toned down the Communist Chinese army by making most of it militia, set the Nat Chinese and Commies at war (which is historical) until the Xian incident fires in December of 1936 (assuming both are still around), and gave the commies a few more forts in their mountains so they'd have a better chance of surviving a Nat Chinese attack.

If the supply problems are ever fixed, I think the Japs would do much better, since with my mods they tend to roll right over China. The AI isn't doing a bad job with the invasion, it just can't properly supply any of its units through puppets.

This is true everywhere, of course. It may be wise to change the surrender event so that the AI never puppets, only annexes, to partially fix the supply problem. Of course, this would give the Japs fits if they annex Nat China, since they'd have a hell of a time trying to deal with all the partisans.

I never use the AI for combat, so I only know of the theater command problems second-hand. I can't imagine buying this game only to watch the AI fight the war for me. Where's the fun in that?

AA is still royally screwed (the variable that controls the value apparently didn't get fixed in 1.2), requiring a mod to both strat bomber defence and an increase in AA effectiveness with tech level progression. I set this to 2, which is a 200% increase in effectiveness per research level. Although I didn't test a bombing attack specifically to see if this worked, as Germany the number of attacks launched against me by the allies dropped rather dramatically. Good enough until Paradox gets around to setting the value to what it actually should be.

Without mods, both diplomacy and trading are broken. That's been true since the beginning, and is still true through 1.2. The player-made diplomacy mod works far better than what Paradox has done so far, and Kaspar's production manager is also better than the Paradox default.

As for the guy who asked whether he should go play HOI2 since it's a 'mature' game, I'd unequivocably have to say no. The AI for HOI2 was never fixed, either by Paradox or by modders, although the modders tried awfully hard to get it to work. No modder or modding group could get the AI to consistently and reliably launch a viable D-Day without resorting to event cheats, and the same was also true for Operation Sealion. With the best mods, the AI went from "really, really sucks" to "doesn't suck quite as much, but still sucks", and that just isn't good enough. It was, and is, a broken game.

The same is not true for HOI3, at least in this regard. I've witnessed the Germans initiate a viable Sealion in 1942, and win by taking all of England by early '43. I've also seen the Americans do D-Day, landing about 50 divisions nearly simultaneously at four French ports, capturing most of France before being driven back by Germans rushing home from the eastern front. Alas, this was the Sealion game, and the Americans were utterly alone, so things didn't go well for them.

Believe it or not, Canada and Australia both launched a combined attack against me, as Germany, near Brest, putting about 20 divisions in the field. I never saw that kind of combined operation in HOI2.

This game has serious, jaw-dropping bugs which scream 'beta!' to anyone with half a brain, but one thing it does have over HOI2: a much better AI, at least for the non-player nations. I can't speak to the theater AI because I can't imagine using it, but for everything else its leaps and bounds ahead of HOI2.

Although is disagree about Manchuko as a matter of Japanese colonial policy I'd rather not get into right now as it's off topic, my books on issue are at home and in practical gaming terms I tend think your solution would be a good one although I haven't tried it yet.

As to puppeting in general I strongly disagree since puppeting was common (and a good argument could be made that it still is) at the time and annexing everything is very counter-historical. Further more, I find HoI much more interesting and fun when I can control puppets and I would much prefer having HoI 2 style military control rather then depend upon a generic minor nation AI that will likely never work properly.

I also don’t agree with you about HoI 2. At the moment HoI 2 is the best WWII strategic war game ever made and it’s far more enjoyable to play then anything else I’ve seen. While it’s true that the AI has some problems that have never and will never be sorted out it is worlds better what Hoi 3 has to offer at the moment. I haven’t been able to play long enough to get to D-Day and I haven’t tried to pull off a Sealion type event so I can’t comment about those. What I can comment on is victorious forces controlled by the computer and the player retreating even when they are in supply, an Asian theater that simply doesn’t work and a mountain of absurd military actions I’ve raised in earlier posts in this thread which when combined with all the other problems I’ve mentioned make HoI 3 more hassle then it’s worth. Still, I’m hanging out with my buddies to see how they do and hopefully pick up some tips about how to work around the bigger problems with 1.2
 
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