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Birger

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info taken from www.heraldica.org:

The Arms of Byzantium
Two particular insignia have attracted a lot of attention, namely the double-headed eagle and the "tetragrammatic cross" (cross between 4 B's).

First, the eagle: it appears as a decorative motif at the court of the last Comnenoi and the Ange family (12th c.), on the cermonial costumes of members of the imperial family but not on the emperor himself. The same is true of the courtt of the Laskaris in the empire of Nicea (1204-61). The Crusaders have used the double-headed eagle as symbol of the empire, although the arms of the empire itself were: Gules, a cross between four crosslets or inscribed in an annulet each and between four crosslets each, all or. The double-headed eagle was taken back to Western Europe by two daughters of the first Latin emperor, one who struck coins in Flanders with the eagle, the other marrying into the house of Savoy and bringing the eagle in the Savoy achievement.

Even after the restoration of the empire and the Paleologue emperors, the eagle is still used by the imperial family but not the emperor. The first known use is in 1301. In the 14th c. the Paleologues used either a single-headed or double-headed eagle as emblem, settling on the double-headed eagle in the 15th c. But it always remained outside of the shield. The exceptions occur in Western documents: Ulrich von Richental's Conciliumbuch describing the arms of the participants in the Constanz council of 1414-18 is one. As for the other, in August 1439 John VIII Palaiologos conferred upon Giacomo de Morellis, a citizen of Florence, the right to place on his banner the imperial blazon (semeion); a painted representation of a shield gules with a double-headed eagle or on the document is probably a posterior addition. Thus the eagle was probably never thought of as a charge, which explains the tradition of the former imperial families (as well as states such as Serbia) of placing their arms on an escutcheon on the breast of the eagle.

As for the tetragrammatic cross, even though it was considered at the time by some to be the arms of the Paleologue family, it was in fact the arms of the Byzantine empire. The motif of a croos between four objects is derived from Constantine's labarum and has long figured on Byzantine coins, since the 6th c.

The B's of the tetragrammatic cross have been mostly interpreted as flints or firestones (purekbola in Greek), but also as letters. It is possible that they were initially letters, and later assimilated to firestones. The interpretation of the four B's standing for the motto "Basileus Basileon Basileuon Basileonton" (king of kings, ruling over those who rule) may well be posterior.
 

unmerged(8523)

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Apr 2, 2002
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Originally posted by Birger Jarl
info taken from www.heraldica.org:

The Arms of Byzantium
Two particular insignia have attracted a lot of attention, namely the double-headed eagle and the "tetragrammatic cross" (cross between 4 B's).

First, the eagle: it appears as a decorative motif at the court of the last Comnenoi and the Ange family (12th c.), on the cermonial costumes of members of the imperial family but not on the emperor himself. The same is true of the courtt of the Laskaris in the empire of Nicea (1204-61). The Crusaders have used the double-headed eagle as symbol of the empire, although the arms of the empire itself were: Gules, a cross between four crosslets or inscribed in an annulet each and between four crosslets each, all or. The double-headed eagle was taken back to Western Europe by two daughters of the first Latin emperor, one who struck coins in Flanders with the eagle, the other marrying into the house of Savoy and bringing the eagle in the Savoy achievement.

Even after the restoration of the empire and the Paleologue emperors, the eagle is still used by the imperial family but not the emperor. The first known use is in 1301. In the 14th c. the Paleologues used either a single-headed or double-headed eagle as emblem, settling on the double-headed eagle in the 15th c. But it always remained outside of the shield. The exceptions occur in Western documents: Ulrich von Richental's Conciliumbuch describing the arms of the participants in the Constanz council of 1414-18 is one. As for the other, in August 1439 John VIII Palaiologos conferred upon Giacomo de Morellis, a citizen of Florence, the right to place on his banner the imperial blazon (semeion); a painted representation of a shield gules with a double-headed eagle or on the document is probably a posterior addition. Thus the eagle was probably never thought of as a charge, which explains the tradition of the former imperial families (as well as states such as Serbia) of placing their arms on an escutcheon on the breast of the eagle.

As for the tetragrammatic cross, even though it was considered at the time by some to be the arms of the Paleologue family, it was in fact the arms of the Byzantine empire. The motif of a croos between four objects is derived from Constantine's labarum and has long figured on Byzantine coins, since the 6th c.

The B's of the tetragrammatic cross have been mostly interpreted as flints or firestones (purekbola in Greek), but also as letters. It is possible that they were initially letters, and later assimilated to firestones. The interpretation of the four B's standing for the motto "Basileus Basileon Basileuon Basileonton" (king of kings, ruling over those who rule) may well be posterior.

been there, done that.

i'm using occam's razor, that the simplest explanation is often the correct one. using the name byzantine empire as an example, you'll often see entries listed as either a yellow single or double headed eagle on red, or a yellow cross between four b's. the former is shown to be at first the arms of the imperial family, then the emperor's person; this website admits that the eagle was not placed on any shields in a state capacity but that it was a symbol of the office of emperor, or his family if you will, and that is why it would later be seen as an regal supporter in the west. by placing their arms on a double-headed eagle the habsburgs were assserting their divine imperial right, rather than they were rulers of byzantium, for example. my theory is that the serbian arms as seen on a double-headed eagle were probably in origin a familial arms placed on the eagle to show imperial right sometime during or after stefan dusan's reign, as he styled himself emperor of the serbs and romans. the latter is only known as the palaiologos banner in greece. it's been suggested and seems to make sense that the empire in reality had no arms and western rollmakers took either the emperor's or the palaiologos' and listed them as the empire's. i would tend to accept the greek point of view on this, and use that to explain the discrepancy in the empire's arms listings... one doesn't see this with the arms of france.

what i don't like about this web-page is that it seems to draw information from two or three different sources without regard to how it looks all together. the first sentence on the page says

the use of heraldic insignia as a symbolic representation of families did not develop in byzantium

and then goes on to list familial arms at the bottom. for one thing, that statement is only half true - families other than the aristocracy probably did not have arms, as both the website and i agree - but the noblemen did have arms. heraldry was probably very rudimentary and centered more on the person before the family, but there were familial arms as well. i'm sorry, but you don't start a website by saying a place had no familial arms, and then say in the next breath that scholars have interpreted certain arms as familial.

then, it talks about the 'official arms' of the empire, which it first describes as:

Gules, a cross between four crosslets or inscribed in an annulet each and between four crosslets each, all or.

and then goes on to say that the palaiologos arms (the 'tetragrammatic' cross, as they call it) weren't in fact theirs but the empire's. the first thing wrong here is that those two descriptions are not the same thing. we know what the palaiologos arms look like, we both did one. the description above calls for a golden cross dividing a red shield into quarters; within each quarter a small golden cross inscribed in a ring and surrounded by four other, perhaps smaller golden crosses. that is the first time i've heard of such a description, and i'm holding out until another website can say the same.

the next reason i'm not sure i entirely trust this site is that it says that the cross between four objects derives from the labarum; i described the labarum in my previous post - i don't know that it ever had 'four objects' around it - and while we agree that it was definitely a generic symbol of the early empire, when it's seen on a coin (from what i've seen so far) it's in someone's hand, or something to that effect, and there are no 'objects' about.

so, while the above arms in blue may turn out to be the empire's arms (i'm not holding my breath), i don't like the idea of saying the palaiologos arms weren't theirs but the empire's. again, right now i think that the simplest explanation is that the empire really didn't have one at this time.

anyway, that wasn't the real reason i posted; i just wanted the flag to be different. the palaiologos banner wasn't the flag of the empire - the later empire did have a flag, the black double-headed eagle on yellow, that was seen everywhere, especially when the empire had an 'everywhere' for it to be seen (that is, it's easy to think that the palaiologos banner flying over constantinople is the empire's flag when that's all that's left).

stephanos

p.s. i've written some "i'd better double check" e-mails to this site and others, i'll let you know what they write me back.
 
Last edited:

Angelos

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We want the v0.3!Any news on the issue?
 

Louis-Philippe

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i have found 2 shields for you. They are the Fez and the Lenape shields. I don't know if you will like them, but i post them :)

Fez
fez.txt


Lenape
lenape.txt


If you want them, i can create complete sets of shields (not the flag, sorry :( )
 

unmerged(8606)

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Originally posted by Korath
I or another can handle the flags if you post your source.
Yes, post your sources, LP2. I can't do the flags until next week, though (but Korath is very fast, you know :D)
 

Louis-Philippe

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and i have an other idea about a flag. The war standard of ottoman army is a yellow swallowtail, long, with only a crescent on the left (no star).
If you can do one, it would nice.

It was the standard during the Siege of Viena in 1683.
 

Mad King James

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I'm thinking for consistency we should use the Ottoman tugra instead of the crescent and star. They didn't really start using the crescent and star till pretty close to the end of the game.
 

Louis-Philippe

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i have make 3 new shields, not present in the GUFSM.

Mysore
mysore.txt


Columbia
colombie.txt
colombie2.txt


I hope they could be integrated in the Gufsm. What is the one you prefer for columbia (to make a complete set)?
 

Languish

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Originally posted by LP2le_retour
of course! :)

Here is the delaware flag from the official site of Delaware tribe
TRIBALSEAL6.jpg


And here is the Fès shieldFès shield

I am presently undertaking a revivised native american shields/flags project. I have never liked the "modern" designs, virtually all of them date from the 1960's or 70's and are horribly too complex.

Good shield though ;)
 

unmerged(5664)

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Originally posted by Mad King James
I'm thinking for consistency we should use the Ottoman tugra instead of the crescent and star. They didn't really start using the crescent and star till pretty close to the end of the game.

The Ottoman crescent and star is firmly imbedded in my mind, and probably the minds of others. As long as it is historically accurate for at least some of the time I'd like to see it stay.
 

Txini

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Originally posted by LP2le_retour
i have make 3 new shields, not present in the GUFSM.

Mysore
mysore.txt


Columbia
colombie.txt
colombie2.txt


I hope they could be integrated in the Gufsm. What is the one you prefer for columbia (to make a complete set)?

well I sent Korath a Columbian set a month ago :p
 

Walter Hawkwood

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Originally posted by LP2le_retour
i have make 3 new shields, not present in the GUFSM.

Mysore
mysore.txt


Columbia
colombie.txt
colombie2.txt


I hope they could be integrated in the Gufsm. What is the one you prefer for columbia (to make a complete set)?

This Mysore strangely resembles current Vijayanagar to me. Maybe we could use it in that way? Or maybe it was a symbol used by both of them? If you please, post a link to the source.
 

Louis-Philippe

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Originally posted by Txini


well I sent Korath a Columbian set a month ago :p

Oh, sorry... But there is no shield on the preview page, so i thought there wasn't any shiled done... :(
 

unmerged(8478)

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Mar 28, 2002
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I guess the Native shields and flags are holding v.0.3 back, well for my game I've remade the original Paradox ones by making them 24bit (all grain removed). If you are interested I can mail them to be included to GUFSM.

Included are:
Lenape
Shawnee
Ashanti
Chimu
Creek
Huron
Inca
Aztec
Natives
Pegu
Rebels
Songhai
Nubia
Xho Xhosa

The shields/flas are pretty much identical with Paradox ones, but remade in 24bit and grain removed.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(8478)

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Here are some examples of the "remade" shields, I also have new flags for all of them:

Ashanti (enchanced EU2 original):
ashanti.gif

Chimu (enchanced EU2 original):
chimu.gif

Creek (enchanced EU2 original):
creek.gif

Huron (enchanced EU2 original):
huron.gif

Inca (symbolic):
inca.gif

Lenape (enchanced EU2 original):
lenape.gif

Natives (enchanced EU2 original):
natives.gif

Navaho (modern):
navaho.gif