byzantine arms and other stuff
again, sorry for not exploring 'virgin' territory; school's really only leaving time to double check some familiar things at the moment. there's a lot of seemingly contradictory information as to the empire's arms; i'll try my best here to sort it out. first, either of these should be the flag:
one (on top)
two (click on 'byzantine empire')
these are variations on the banner that would be seen throughout the empire and is attested by historical sources; the one that the game came with is the banner of the palaiologos' and would probably only be seen in constantinople or in conjunction with the other, analogous to how a duke may fly his own banner on his estate, but the state banner throughout the dukedom. the black, double-headed eagle on yellow is known to be the flag of the empire in greece, and that is why it has subsequently become the flag of the greek orthodox church.
that takes us to the arms of the empire; despite what many websites claim, i doubt the empire had arms. let me explain: one website might say that the arms of the empire were a golden, double-headed, crowned eagle on a red field; another might say it's the familiar golden cross between the four golden 'betas' - the reason i think that there is this discrepancy is due to the fact that the empire really had no arms as such and the symbols are interpreted in a western framework. here's what i mean: the golden eagle on red was adopted by the palaiologos as a imperial familial emblem after retaking constantinople - meaning it symbolized the imperial family, not theirs in particular - and later came to symbolize the emperor's
person. this view is substantiated by
this, and the fact that mkj correctly ascertained that the comnenoi as
rulers of trebizond displayed a golden, single-headed eagle on red, but the arms of the comnenoi
family were:
Comnenos (emperors of Trebizonde): Argent, three bars Sable.
so, in reality i think what happened was (since the empire had no arms, per se) someone in the west used this logic: "arms of the emperor > emperor rules empire > emperor's arms = empire's arms" the same way we're using the logic that the arms of the ducal families of la roche, brienne, and acciajoli should stand in as the arms of the duchy of athens. (on a side note, the site that gave me the arms for all three families only noted the la roche arms as synonymous with the duchy's, but anyway...)
the other major contender for the empire's arms is that of the palaiologos family, which are the familiar golden cross between four 'betas'. that those arms are the arms of the empire is doubtful as shown by:
one
two (click 'palaiologos dynasty')
oddly enough, despite the fact that there is a long tradition starting from constantine's banner of a cross between four 'betas' as a motif i still disbelieve that the palaiologos arms were in fact the arms of the empire as asserted by some websites. this is because of a number of things: first, constantine's banner was a personal banner. second, the symbol used throughout the empire early on in a generic sense was the labarum, which was derived from constantine's arms, a spear and rod laid perpendicular to form a cross, with the christogram affixed to the top in a wreath; this symbol appears very much in sculpture. later this symbol was stylized to become a christogram in a circular escutcheon set in the center of a cross - this is how it appears on the back of some of my greek books. third, curiously enough, the plain golden cross on red is also a reference to saint andrew (in addition to the white 'x' on blue); so if the palaiologos arms were indeed also the arms of something else, i'd wager they were a symbol of the city if anything. again, i believe that a western rollmaker used the logic that the arms of the ruling family were synonymous with those of the empire. fourth, i never see the palaiologos' arms in greek sources listed as the empire's arms; it is always listed as the family's.
again i stress that i don't think the empire had arms. i think the leap in logic is understandable though, because the emperors of constantinople
were the empire the same way that the classical roman emperors claimed to be rome herself; the emperor was the head of the state as well as the church - he was the empire personified - so i don't find it hard to believe that rollmakers would take his familial arms or his arms as emperor and list them as the empire's. it's been well understood for some time that byzantium had only a rudimentary heraldic tradition that was based primarily on personal and familial arms.
what does this change? overall, not much; just the flag and hopefully your perception. there's nothing wrong with using either the palaiologoi family arms (bj) or the emperor's arms for constantinople (steph); just as there's nothing wrong with using the comnenoi family arms or the emperor's arms of trebizond (mkj) for trebizond. i haven't found anything yet as to the flag of trebizond, though.
what flag would fly over the despotate of morea? probably the byzantine flag as mkj made - and the palaiologos' banner would probably fly over the city of constantinople; my point was just that the first was known to be the flag of the later empire as seen throughout where the second was not.
stephanos
Brabant
flag_war
