The Grand Unified Flag/Shield Mod 1.0

[Walter Hawkwood]

Originally posted by Birger Jarl
According to the info the arms of Muscowy and Tver should look like this:

Muscovy

Tver (Can't find any info about the color of the bear, but I guess it was brown)

Bear should be a little darker and standing (saw the arms somewhere in the real life, can't fetch the source). I think he was also holding some kind of staff (see arms of Vladimir/Suzdal), but this might as well be later addition. You took the bear from Californian arms, didn't you?

To Stephanos: they also have an interesting flag for Flandres there. This one, if any on the site, could really prove historic.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4700/zp-vl.htm

EDIT: Browsed through resources on Tver, found that the bear was only introduced later, in Ivan IV's times, and was never the sign of independent Tver. The emblem has changed with each new ruler, but in XV century (during EUII times) it resembled a rider, sometimes holding a sword. These seals are the best I could find. All the rest was introduced later.

BTW, this info has been found on Tver's official server, and as that, it can be considered reliable.

 

[Mad King James]

confirmed, that IS the flag of Brabant
that isn't Burgundy's though, THAT is the Imperial Austrian arms, and Austrian flag.

 

[Mad King James]

Oh no! That's St. George slaying the Dragon, identical to Muscovy :/

Originally posted by Walter Hawkwood


Bear should be a little darker and standing (saw the arms somewhere in the real life, can't fetch the source). I think he was also holding some kind of staff (see arms of Vladimir/Suzdal), but this might as well be later addition. You took the bear from Californian arms, didn't you?

To Stephanos: they also have an interesting flag for Flandres there. This one, if any on the site, could really prove historic.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4700/zp-vl.htm

EDIT: Browsed through resources on Tver, found that the bear was only introduced later, in Ivan IV's times, and was never the sign of independent Tver. The emblem has changed with each new ruler, but in XV century (during EUII times) it resembled a rider, sometimes holding a sword. These seals are the best I could find. All the rest was introduced later.

BTW, this info has been found on Tver's official server, and as that, it can be considered reliable.

 

[Birger]

Quote from Ilya Morozov
WWW: http://heraldry.hobby.ru

In 15th century the emblem of Tver was a rider who kills a
snake (then this symbol became an emblem of Moscow). The horseman was on
the seal of prince Mikhail Borisovich, who rulled in Tver in
1462-1485.

In 16th century the emblem of Tver was a bear. You can see it on the
State Seal of Ivan IV (1577).

 

[unmerged(8523)]

i think the bear might be a good compromise; we can't have too many georges around

anyway, even if no one else likes it, birger, can you save me a copy of that bear as drawn now?

that flag shouldn't cause confusion with croatia's new flag by the way, after doing some homework, it looks like croatia's original arms were chequy (as we all know) but from what i've seen on two sites so far, it was initially done as a 6 x 5 with a white in the upper left - it seems only after the 1600's (?) or so that it was standardized to 5 x 5 with a red square in the upper left. this is how i have it on my site now (6 x 5); can anyone else confirm or refute?

stephanos

 

[Birger]

Originally posted by stephanos
i think the bear might be a good compromise; we can't have too many georges around

anyway, even if no one else likes it, birger, can you save me a copy of that bear as drawn now?

...

stephanos

I think so too, I'll do a complete set and upload it on my site later today.
You can get a copy from there Steph.

 

[unmerged(8523)]

mr. superfluous

that's me, mr. superfluous - here's my version of muscowy with the correct palette:

www.geocities.com/littlsaint/muscowy_2.gif

i guess because it's still free, geocities won't let me post images like you guys

just type that into a new window and that way you can have a look; if you like it, change the '.gif' ending to '.zip'

now all we need is a russia with a right facing georgie shield on the eagle's breast

stephanos

p.s. thanks for saving the bear, birger

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Originally posted by Birger Jarl
Quote from Ilya Morozov
WWW: http://heraldry.hobby.ru

In 15th century the emblem of Tver was a rider who kills a
snake (then this symbol became an emblem of Moscow). The horseman was on
the seal of prince Mikhail Borisovich, who rulled in Tver in
1462-1485.

In 16th century the emblem of Tver was a bear. You can see it on the
State Seal of Ivan IV (1577).

But in 16th century Tver wasn't independent anymore! Maybe we could use earlier arms. Or still adopt this rider - first of all, it doesn't have a dragon (at least the upper one), and wields a sword. And then, nobody says its background must be red!

 

[unmerged(8523)]

i love the skull and swords for the pirates' flag ( it's really frightening ); but as a shield it doesn't do anything for me - what do you guys think of this?

www.geocities.com/littlsaint/pirates.gif

it's the flag of a pirate named henry every; i dunno, maybe i'm the only one who likes it, but there's something about the way the skull is turned to the side...

here's my proposal for atjeh:

www.geocities.com/littlsaint/atjeh.gif

i found it listed as a 'state flag', where the current one was listed as a 'sultan's flag' - everyone to his/her own preference, i guess

steph

p.s. walter, don't you have a website or something? i wanted to give you a link on my site

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Originally posted by stephanos

p.s. walter, don't you have a website or something? i wanted to give you a link on my site

I am going to have one as soon as I find time to do it. It'll be at http://www.geocities.com/whawkwood.

BTW, all the shields and flags made for pirates were used only in Carribean. Couldn't we make up a more general symbol?

 

[Birger]

Hey Steph.

I noticed your new Duchy of Athens arms, where did you find the info?! I'm most eager to see it since I've been looking for it for ages...

 

[unmerged(8523)]

this is too funny

i did the same thing; i took paradox's idea and ran with it - i have been dying for the webmaster of http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Principal.htm to post his info, since he a space listed for it in his 'balkan and eastern european' page, but he hasn't done it yet. (aaargh!) i was literally going to ask you what you thought of this: the ermine tails reminded me of a flag quatered between france and brittany - it was some queen's flag or something. since the duchy was french in origin (right?) i was wondering if (on top of the ermine in the white fields) there should be fleurs de lis in the blue ones...

 

[unmerged(8523)]

i've been trying to look up the duchy's arms in other languages, too; in catalan, athens was known as cetines, and in french it's duche d'athenes - this site has a clue as the the arms of the acciaiuoli, who ruled during the eu period: three fleurs de lis (great description )

http://pages.ripco.net/~clevin/tristram.html

steph

 

[unmerged(8523)]

here we go:

Roche d'Athènes (La) en Franche-Comté et en Grèce. Cinq points de gueules équipollés à quatre d'hermine.

from this site:

http://www.luz-herald.net/blaz/french.html

(i looked up athens, and they said to look up la roche; i'm not good in french - does that mean it should be red with ermine? this is a familial coat of arms, so the state's may very well be blue)

stephanos

p.s. i guess i'll make the red version then, and call it 'otho de la roche'; i guess we can leave it to the player to decide - i'd need help making a flag, of course

from the same site (I LOVE THIS SITE):

Acciajoli en Toscane et en Grèce. D'argent au lion d'azur, armé et lampassé de gueules.

as the acciaiuoli were in power in athens at this time, that should be the real arms of the duchy. i'll need help making a flag, of course

 

[Mad King James]

Why are europeans so thouroughly obsessed with lions on red fields?

 

[unmerged(8523)]

Originally posted by Mad King James
Why are europeans so thouroughly obsessed with lions on red fields?

uh-uh; acciajoli is going to be a blue lion on a white/silver background with red nails and tongue i'm going to do that tomorrow; the girlfriend wants cuddling...

here is my duchy of athens as listed on that site; in other words, the familial arms of othon de la roche

www.geocities.com/littlsaint/duke_la_roche.gif

(sorry you have to cut and paste )

steph

 

[Birger]

Quote from Ilya Morozov
WWW: http://heraldry.hobby.ru

First emblem of Tver was an animal who seems like the lion. It was on the seal of grand prince Mikhail Alexandrovich, who rulled in Tver in 1370-1399.

Maybe something like this?

(not sure about the colors...)

In 15th century the emblem of Tver was a rider who kills a snake (then this symbol became an emblem of Moscow). The horseman was on the seal of prince Mikhail Borisovich, who rulled in Tver in 1462-1485.

If we use another Georgie for Tver what should we use for Muscowy?
Or should we use the Bear, the "lion" or the chair and crown for Tver?

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Originally posted by Birger Jarl
Quote from Ilya Morozov
WWW: http://heraldry.hobby.ru



Maybe something like this?

(not sure about the colors...)




If we use another Georgie for Tver what should we use for Muscowy?
Or should we use the Bear, the "lion" or the chair and crown for Tver? [/B]

Definitely not the chair and not the bear, as later symbols. We could use George with some other colors. It would show Moscow and Tver were in constant struggle and used similar symbols. Maybe George on yellow will do. If not, the "lion" can be used, but it is a pre-EU symbol. Yellow/red palette is not the only one that can be used with Tver.

 

[unmerged(8523)]

Originally posted by Walter Hawkwood


Definitely not the chair and not the bear, as later symbols. We could use George with some other colors. It would show Moscow and Tver were in constant struggle and used similar symbols. Maybe George on yellow will do. If not, the "lion" can be used, but it is a pre-EU symbol. Yellow/red palette is not the only one that can be used with Tver.

aren't there paintings of george killing the dragon on foot? is that acceptable? just don't use a white/silver background, it'd look too much like our georgias how effectively could we make it look like a snake and not a dragon at that size?

about the pirates, i don't know; the skull and crossbones has become so cliche as to be instantly recognizable, even if it's use in other parts of the world would be anachronistic. there are other options, of course - there were flags of skeletons in white or red, pirates holding bloody knives, hearts with daggers in them - but nothing scared me as much as the skull and swords that birger and korath did. it's like the situation with the rebels, since we're using a made up symbol based on real rebel colors; the new bend sinister is beautiful, but as a shield it doesn't necessarily make me feel like, 'oh no! i'm in trouble now!"

steph

 

[Birger]

Originally posted by Walter Hawkwood


Definitely not the chair and not the bear, as later symbols. We could use George with some other colors. It would show Moscow and Tver were in constant struggle and used similar symbols. Maybe George on yellow will do. If not, the "lion" can be used, but it is a pre-EU symbol. Yellow/red palette is not the only one that can be used with Tver.

But Georgie was only used between 1462-1485...