The Ukraine shield looks much better. But IMHO the Papal States shield already in-game (from 0.2) looks better than the newer one on your update page.
Just one man's opinion...
Just one man's opinion...
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As things stand now:
No graphic at all
Bantus (S/F)
Burgundy (F) (due to indecision, not lack of sources)
Chimú (S/F)
Creek (S/F)
Duchy of Athens (F)
exiled armies (F) (no one's gotten around to it)
Fez (S/F)
Gujarat (S)
Huron (S/F)
Kongo (S/F)
Lenape (S/F)
Malacca (F)
Malwa (S/F)
Mataram (S/F)
Mysore (S/F)
Natives (S/F)
Navaho (S/F)
Nubia (S/F)
Orissa (S/F)
Pegu (S/F)
retreating armies/navies (F)
Shawnee (S/F)
Salzburg (F)
Songhai (S/F)
USA (F)
Vijayanagar (S/F)
Zanj (F)
Zapotec (S/F)
Dubious
Bosnia (F) (probable anachronism)
Cherokee (S/F) (confirmed anachronism)
Dakota (S/F) (confirmed anachronism)
Delhi (S/F) (no source other than Paradox' shield/flag)
Gujarat (F) (like Paradox' flag, this is actually Idar)
Jodhpur (F) (possible anachronism)
Kongo (S) (no source other than Paradox' shield)
Luang Prabang (S/F) (probable anachronism)
Tver (F) (Current flag is the city of Tver; needs to be updated to match BJ's new shield)
Problematic
Burgundy and Spain (F) (nuff said)
Cologne (S) (Use the City of Cologne, as in BJ's update, or Bishopric of Cologne, as in 0.2?)
Kleves (S) (Use pre-1368 Kleves arms as in BJ's update, or Kleves-Mark-Julich-Berg-Ravensberg as in 0.2?)
Helvetia (S/F) (There's no good choice; see here. Probably best is Schwyz' arms and flag - red with a small white cross in the upper right for the shield, and a square red flag with a small right cross in the upper hoist (left). If we keep the large white cross, the flag should be triangular, and the cross should extend to the edges in both shield and flag (and thus look like Savoy and Denmark))
the 'new' shield for tver (the crown on a pillow on a throne) was granted to the principality after it became part of russia - using it and not including the hand/cloud motif in pskov would be inconsistent. i've personally taken things to mean that if arms say 'principality', then it means part of a larger state. the arms of the city of tver would more than likely be closer to the arms of the independent state that existed previous to its incorporation into russia.
as for cologne, i use the city's - in the game text it says as much, as opposed to mainz, where the description tells you that you are playing the archbishopric (which has one wheel; the city's arms had two).
steph
p.s. sorry i haven't had a chance to do more research; just got back from london and school starts again this week - i'll keep posting anything i find out
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How about rotating the Murghal shield design 90 degrees? It would make the two sides of the triangle equally long thus look nice and symetric
Sorry Korath, I know I volunteered several days ago to research some graphics, but I've subsequently joined the HOI beta-test and am involved in a bunch of research there...
Following info recieved from Marcus.Ewers@viersen.de
The history of Cologne
that is presented in the game is that of the city. But the rulers of Cologne are the archbishops of
Kurköln and not the majors of the City of Cologne - so it seems to me clear
that Kurköln is the state wich is presented in the game. Paradox have made
a little mistake to present the wrong history of the City instead that of
Kurköln
I was presented this "new" arms for the Papal States from a user here in the forum. He found info about this arms in www.heraldica.org
thank you
my knowledge of these things is indeed very poor.on a side note, i'm going on a hunch based on arms i've seen and the dates attached to them that the independent entity of muscowy had a right facing saint george, that it was a right facing saint george on a shield on top of russia's early eagles, and that sometime after about a few hundred years, let's say, he was made to face left for both the city and the country. i've e-mailed the host of the russian heraldry page and i'll let you know what he says about the direction georgie should be facing in 1419
stephanos
1. what exactly would be the difference between playing the 'holy see' as opposed to the 'papal states'? which is really portrayed in game?
i'm assuming the papal states, right? the holy see is just the governing body of the church...?2. the original in game version seems to be the arms of the holy see only after the 18th century...
I think the Holy See is the name used to describe the centre of Roman Catholic ecclesiastical bureaucracy (i.e. the Curia) and the patriarchal seat of the pope. The actual location of the Holy See depended on the where the Curia and the Pope resided, but this should not be a problem in the EU2 timeline. The temporal possesions were called "The Patrimony of St. Peter" and "Papal States".Originally posted by stephanos
what exactly would be the difference between playing the 'holy see' as opposed to the 'papal states'? which is really portrayed in game?
The Papal States were AFAIK the personal property of the Pope (the position not the person). The possesions were given to relatives and supporters, if the line died out the they were returned to the Pope.
The reasons that my Kleves, Cologne and England shields looks like this is that they're the "original" arms of the state and a bit easier to identify.
Like many other arms that I've done is based on the "original" arms, just to keep it simple since the arms were changed very often trough time.
About Cologne, the one in my update is the arms of the Archbishopric not the city.
See here (Cologne - quarterly argent a cross sable).
from 'flags of the world'
Emblems of Kazan
The first depictions of the civic emblems occur on a seal of Ivan the Terrible, and, with insignificant alterations in details, on other monuments of the sixteenth and the first half of the seventeenth centuries. A decree of 1766 about this emblem says, «The seal of Kazan bears on it a basilisk, wings gold, end of tail gold.» This depiction, published in the Titulary, fully conforms to the law.
But the Kazan coat of arms possesses an earlier origin. Legend speaks thus of the foundation of the city. Kazan was built on a place where there was a multitude of snakes. A Tatar sorcerer lit bonfires and spoke magic words. The snakes perished, but the snake-king Zilant escaped to a neighboring mountain, called Dzhilantai (Snake Mountain). On the site thus liberated people built a city. However, they were unable to live in peace, as the snake-king who had settled nearby brought misery on them. Fortunately, in the city there appeared a mighty magician, Hakim, who was able, by mighty conjurations, to kill the snake-king. In memory of this occurrence a representation of Zilant is still a civic emblem among the Tatars.
With the creation in the eighteenth century of the Kazan coat of arms, preserving on the shield an old depiction of a snake, it received a new description: «A black snake, wearing the golden crown of Kazan, wings red, field white.» But in other documents this snake began to be called a dragon. In the nineteenth century in the newly described coat of arms of the former Kazan province the ancient snake-king Zilant (later called a basilisk) is also called a dragon.
In spite of the fact that in the old civic emblem, and in the earliest coat of arms of Kazan and of the province of the same name, we undoubtedly have depictions of one and the same, though variously named, winged snake, not all sorts of such fantastic monsters found in Russian symbolism and heraldry have the same significance. For example, the ominous snake-dragon, personifying the evil enemies of the Russian nation, in the old emblem of Moscow possesses a different origin and symbolism.
A different significance is given to the winged dragon acribed to the Tatar khans. An interesting antique description of this emblem of the khans was published in the work of Carlus Allard (published in 1705 in Amsterdam, translated into Russian in 1709): «Flag of the king of Tartary, yellow with a black dragon (great serpent) with basilisk tail, couchant, facing toward the fly.» Attestation of the fact that a dragon, or winged snake, appears as a sign or emblem of the Tatar khans, can also be found among Russian authors, but without description and colored illustration of the emblem.
This same Allard publishes in his work a description of another former Tatar flag: «A different Tatar flag, yellow with a black owl with yellow breast.»
Emblems of Kazan
The first depictions of the civic emblems occur on a seal of Ivan the Terrible, and, with insignificant alterations in details, on other monuments of the sixteenth and the first half of the seventeenth centuries. A decree of 1766 about this emblem says, «The seal of Kazan bears on it a basilisk, wings gold, end of tail gold.» This depiction, published in the Titulary, fully conforms to the law.
But the Kazan coat of arms possesses an earlier origin. Legend speaks thus of the foundation of the city. Kazan was built on a place where there was a multitude of snakes. A Tatar sorcerer lit bonfires and spoke magic words. The snakes perished, but the snake-king Zilant escaped to a neighboring mountain, called Dzhilantai (Snake Mountain). On the site thus liberated people built a city. However, they were unable to live in peace, as the snake-king who had settled nearby brought misery on them. Fortunately, in the city there appeared a mighty magician, Hakim, who was able, by mighty conjurations, to kill the snake-king. In memory of this occurrence a representation of Zilant is still a civic emblem among the Tatars.
With the creation in the eighteenth century of the Kazan coat of arms, preserving on the shield an old depiction of a snake, it received a new description: «A black snake, wearing the golden crown of Kazan, wings red, field white.» But in other documents this snake began to be called a dragon. In the nineteenth century in the newly described coat of arms of the former Kazan province the ancient snake-king Zilant (later called a basilisk) is also called a dragon.
In spite of the fact that in the old civic emblem, and in the earliest coat of arms of Kazan and of the province of the same name, we undoubtedly have depictions of one and the same, though variously named, winged snake, not all sorts of such fantastic monsters found in Russian symbolism and heraldry have the same significance. For example, the ominous snake-dragon, personifying the evil enemies of the Russian nation, in the old emblem of Moscow possesses a different origin and symbolism.
A different significance is given to the winged dragon acribed to the Tatar khans. An interesting antique description of this emblem of the khans was published in the work of Carlus Allard (published in 1705 in Amsterdam, translated into Russian in 1709): «Flag of the king of Tartary, yellow with a black dragon (great serpent) with basilisk tail, couchant, facing toward the fly.» Attestation of the fact that a dragon, or winged snake, appears as a sign or emblem of the Tatar khans, can also be found among Russian authors, but without description and colored illustration of the emblem.
This same Allard publishes in his work a description of another former Tatar flag: «A different Tatar flag, yellow with a black owl with yellow breast.»
woohoo!
am i good or what?
that means... no more problems with lithuania! i had a suspicion that we were taken in by sites that presented the later arms as the arms all along
this is the first i've heard about the color changes, though; i recently did a right facing georgie that has a blue cape, white horse, and dark green dragon. (is one out of three bad?) doesn't that also tend to prove mkj's position on russia's flag?
stephanos
am i good or what?
that means... no more problems with lithuania! i had a suspicion that we were taken in by sites that presented the later arms as the arms all along
this is the first i've heard about the color changes, though; i recently did a right facing georgie that has a blue cape, white horse, and dark green dragon. (is one out of three bad?)
doesn't that also tend to prove mkj's position on russia's flag?stephanos
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Good one Steph.
Here's some info from Ilya about Tver, we were completly wrong both of us...
First emblem of Tver was an animal who seems like the lion. It was on
the seal of grand prince Mikhail Alexandrovich, who rulled in Tver in
1370-1399. In 15th century the emblem of Tver was a rider who kills a
snake (then this symbol became an emblem of Moscow). The horseman was on
the seal of prince Mikhail Borisovich, who rulled in Tver in
1462-1485.
In 16th century the emblem of Tver was a bear. You can see it on the
State Seal of Ivan IV (1577). It's funny, but on this State Seal the
crown on the chair was the Smolensk emblem (may be, it was a mistake
of the seal creator).
New description of Tver emblem was made in 17th century: "Chair without
back, crown on it". This emblem then was placed on heraldry banner
(flag) of tzar Alexey Mikhailovich (this banner contains emblems of
Russian territories and was made in 1666; the author of this banner was
the artist Stanislav Loputsky). I send you the image
of this banner: Tver emblem in the left lower corner, I think.
Description of Tver emblem in the heraldry book "Titulyarnik", 1672:
"Chair without back, two bread on it, crown with cross above them". I
don't know any other images of Tver emblem with bread on it (only
chair and crown).
Crown on Tver emblem means that this region considers itself as equal to
West-European kingdoms. In 14th century grand prince Mikhail
Yaroslavovich, who rulled in Tver, called himself as a "Tzar of All
Russia" (he was the first in Russain history, who called himself as
"Tzar"). Word "chair" in this emblem means not only "place for
sitting", but also means "domain", "reign", "throne" "grand duchy".
In 1730 the new description of Tver emblem was adopted: "On silver chair
on green pillow the golden crown, in red field". In 1780 the coat of
arms of Tver was adopted: "In red field golden chair, on green
pillow the golden crown".
In the middle of 19th century the reform of Russian heraldry began. The
project of new Tver emblem was made by Berngard Kene: "In red field the
golden throne, on it the crown on green pillow". This image wasn't
adopted as a city image, but was adopted as the arms of the region on
December 8, 1856. Kene changed the image of crown on the Tver emblem:
now it seems like the old crown of Russian tsars (so-called "the Cap of
Monomakh").
So, the throne appeared on Tver emblem in 1856. Now there is the same
thing: chair is placed on the city blazon (the emblem of 1780 was
re-instituted), and throne is on Tver Oblast arms (the arms of Tver
Province (1856) was used).
Here's some info from Ilya about Tver, we were completly wrong both of us...
First emblem of Tver was an animal who seems like the lion. It was on
the seal of grand prince Mikhail Alexandrovich, who rulled in Tver in
1370-1399. In 15th century the emblem of Tver was a rider who kills a
snake (then this symbol became an emblem of Moscow). The horseman was on
the seal of prince Mikhail Borisovich, who rulled in Tver in
1462-1485.
In 16th century the emblem of Tver was a bear. You can see it on the
State Seal of Ivan IV (1577). It's funny, but on this State Seal the
crown on the chair was the Smolensk emblem (may be, it was a mistake
of the seal creator).
New description of Tver emblem was made in 17th century: "Chair without
back, crown on it". This emblem then was placed on heraldry banner
(flag) of tzar Alexey Mikhailovich (this banner contains emblems of
Russian territories and was made in 1666; the author of this banner was
the artist Stanislav Loputsky). I send you the image
of this banner: Tver emblem in the left lower corner, I think.
Description of Tver emblem in the heraldry book "Titulyarnik", 1672:
"Chair without back, two bread on it, crown with cross above them". I
don't know any other images of Tver emblem with bread on it (only
chair and crown).
Crown on Tver emblem means that this region considers itself as equal to
West-European kingdoms. In 14th century grand prince Mikhail
Yaroslavovich, who rulled in Tver, called himself as a "Tzar of All
Russia" (he was the first in Russain history, who called himself as
"Tzar"). Word "chair" in this emblem means not only "place for
sitting", but also means "domain", "reign", "throne" "grand duchy".
In 1730 the new description of Tver emblem was adopted: "On silver chair
on green pillow the golden crown, in red field". In 1780 the coat of
arms of Tver was adopted: "In red field golden chair, on green
pillow the golden crown".
In the middle of 19th century the reform of Russian heraldry began. The
project of new Tver emblem was made by Berngard Kene: "In red field the
golden throne, on it the crown on green pillow". This image wasn't
adopted as a city image, but was adopted as the arms of the region on
December 8, 1856. Kene changed the image of crown on the Tver emblem:
now it seems like the old crown of Russian tsars (so-called "the Cap of
Monomakh").
So, the throne appeared on Tver emblem in 1856. Now there is the same
thing: chair is placed on the city blazon (the emblem of 1780 was
re-instituted), and throne is on Tver Oblast arms (the arms of Tver
Province (1856) was used).
According to the info the arms of Muscowy and Tver should look like this:
Muscovy
Tver (Can't find any info about the color of the bear, but I guess it was brown)
And the Novgorod arms should look like this.
- only 2 fishes instead of 4,
- brown bears instead of black, (ok it's suppose to be one lynx and one bear, but could you really tell?)
- only 2 fishes instead of 4,
- brown bears instead of black, (ok it's suppose to be one lynx and one bear, but could you really tell?
)
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Originally posted by stephanos
looking really good, birger
Thanx Steph, great job about the info on Muscowy.
Btw, I'll do your "getting to know your artists" questions tomorrow, I really like them.
what the...
found this for the flag of brabant; anyone know what's going on?
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4700/zp-braba.htm
i don't get it... is this site just misinformed? check out what it has for burgundy:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4700/xxhbg.htm
found this for the flag of brabant; anyone know what's going on?
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4700/zp-braba.htm
i don't get it... is this site just misinformed? check out what it has for burgundy:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4700/xxhbg.htm