The Global Wars (Mod)

[colonelkadaffy]

I don't see what place 'National Reactionism' has in a spectrum of governmental systems.

Well its not govermenal systems is ideology, thats how its allways worked with HOI, Social democracy, National Socailism or Stalinism are ideologies not govermental systems.

You can't define govermental systems on a left/right individualist/collectivist spectrum.

A democracy could be reactionary or nationalist in sentiment or policy it does not really explain how the country is run.

Reactionaries were extreme nationalists and jingoists who were against liberalism and socailism, thus by extrension all forms of democratic/republican goverment.

According to Dictionary.com, the origins of the concept of the Proletariat came from ancient Rome. The purpose of the term is not to obsess over political philosophy or extreme fantasy but to describe a specific system of government by which a nation is run. When I refer to Proletariat socialism I mean a system of socialist democracy where usually one-party rule is in place and decisions are made by a party council rather than say an absolute ruler--like in the early Soviet Union. Like I said I do not see how something like 'National Reactionism' is more descriptive or applicable here. About Autocratic and 'Paternal Autocrat'--I removed Paternal from it to recognize the possibility that the monarch or autocrat could be a woman or queen, that's all. My focus here is on the way a country is ruled not as much their political philosophy or ideology. Parliamentary systems are not as direct a form of democracy as say a progressive republic with a wider separation of powers. Because each of these terms have to represent a place both on left-right scale and an authoritarian-democratic one I had to combine certain ideas to make a broad enough spectrum that I can cover all angles. The Left and Right wing totalitarian/dictatorial are there because there aren't really any terms for specific systems of absolute power like Stalinism or National Socialism both of which I find unsuitable and unlikely terms to be used in my alternate history.

Well ok, but your making a pretty massive departure for most other mods and hoi vanilla itself. And as i've said it dosent really make any sense to define systems of goverment on a left/right individualist/collectivist spectrum.

And hell most of the fun of hoi2 has allways been that fact its been battles between ideologies.

Your mod though mate. do what you will.

 

[Azues]

Here is the description for the Scandinavian Socialist Order -- rename suggestions are welcome!

When the powerful Polish Empire invaded Tzarist Russia, a radical left-wing faction had risen to power in neighboring Finland. With ambitious goals of expansionism, Red Finland eagerly offered Poland it's army to help with the conquest of Russia. With the war in an uncertain stage, the Polish Emperor reluctantly agreed and offered a significant portion of Northern Russia to Finland in exchange for military cooperation. The deal doomed Russia and solidified the power of the new communist regime in Finland. Major socialist programs were implemented and war spending has increased exponentially in the tightly controlled state. Now, with their eastern borders secure, the Finns set their sights on the west. Swedish remained in diplomatic and political isolation during Finland's revolutionary period--the Swedish government expected the young German Federation and English Commonwealth to protect them in the event of an attack. Finnish forces, mostly guerrilla units prepared for extensive winter fighting, crossed Swedish borders in a surprise attack long warned about by Norway. Sweden was annexed shortly after it's poorly trained military was overrun, becoming part of a new Scandinavian order. Norway mobilized their forces quickly, even launching a counter-attack into eastern Sweden, but the Finnish troops were supported by well designed aircraft with well-trained pilots. The Norwegians would inevitably collapse under a swift three-pronged campaign. Little more than a year passed before the the Nordic communists shocked the world by uniting all of Scandinavia into a growing super state.

@General_Sherman: Thanks

@colonelkadaffy: Fascism does rise in Italy. Except it's not really Italy. Though the Roman Empire suffers setbacks and losses over time like many empires did in reality, they did not lose control of many important areas including most of the Balkans and even Istanbul aka Constantinople. After several shifts in government and territory from war and revolution, a widely supported Neo-Roman party emerges. They rise up in the mid 19th century to unite nations formerly under Roman control with a new Roman state. Mussolini is even the Foreign Minister, but thats it.

I changed Libertarian to Individualist but what do you think of these for government types:

Right-Wing Dictatorial
Fascist
Autocratic
Parliamentary Democratic
Capitalist Democratic
Progressive Republican
Radical Liberal
Proletariat Socialist
One-Party Communist
Left-Wing Totalitarian

Sounds rather unlikely that Sweden would succumb under Finland. maybe add a dissent ?

Names:

Scandinavian Union
Social Republic Of Scandinavian

 

[Ostheim]

Well ok, but your making a pretty massive departure for most other mods and hoi vanilla itself. And as i've said it dosent really make any sense to define systems of goverment on a left/right individualist/collectivist spectrum.

If that's the case how am I making a 'departure' from vanilla? HoI2 defines government that way.

 

[colonelkadaffy]

If that's the case how am I making a 'departure' from vanilla? HoI2 defines government that way.

All of the listed names for goverment with the expetion of paternal autocracy (which is more of an amalgamtion of monarchism and various autocracies) are ideologies not forms of goverment.

 

[Ostheim]

The ideologies imply governmental systems, if they were meant to be pure ideology without the systems of control and governance they historically had it wouldn't make much sense then to base them on anything more than the left-right slider--or they could have made separate descriptions for each slider.

 

[colonelkadaffy]

Well not really, there are ideologies that will tend to stick to the democractic school of thought, or the ogliarchical school of thought, but within that its very hard to pin down and ideology within thouse two vague groupings.

 

[Lord Finnish]

So, where i can get this mod and when?

 

[Ostheim]

Hopefully within the next few weeks. It's just me so

 

[Hanti]

Greets!

I like your idea of alternate world.
Very promising

What I can suggest is:

1. Country names are TOO fictional (unrealistic).

For example, i live in Poland. There were never such a thing as "Imperial Poland". We were ALWAYS enemies of every empire. The only thing that was functionig here was FEDERATION (or confederation sometimes). You should consider change of that name to something like "Polish Commonwealth" or Commonwealth of The Nations.
When Poland ruled east Europe (1500-1700) tha name sounded Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodów (in english: Commonwealth or Union Of Both Nations - means Polish and Lithuanians).
The country collapsed because it denied Third Nation its place in Union (Ukrainians). So in alternate world Poles could be wise enough to invite Ukrainians into Union making Commonwealth Of Three Nations
The borders should include all Baltic countries and terrain around St. Petersburg (Northern War in 1700s).

European Union (of Workers or whatever) CAN NOT exist without Germany. It's more german project than french. You should consider including Germany into EU.
Maybe give Roman Empire lands in Hispania to balance EU strenght (Germany+France).

Dynasty China should be China
China is China, no other names are needed.

I see no possibility to create strong state in Africa (African Revolutionary Front). Only northern and southern parts of Africa are habitable enough to create empire.
Maybe Englad should have some colonies in middle african seashores? I would give all souhern and eastern Africa to something like Zulu Empire

2. Government types are chaotic mix of ideologies.

My sugestion with sliders is:

1*) form of government: democratic-autocratic
2*) ideology: fundamentalism-communism
3*) citizeship: nationalism-globalism (internationalism)
4*) economy: capitalism-socialism
5*) army: professional-conscript
6*) war: hawks-doves
7*) international activity: interventionism-isolationism

Ad 2:

+1 NATIONAL_SOCIALIST ---> Right Wing Radical (Christian or Islam Fundamentalists)
+2 FASCIST ---> Conservatives (todays "NeoConservatists" of Republican Party in USA)
+3 PATERNAL_AUTOCRAT ---> Conservative Democrat (Christian Democrat in EU)
+4 SOCIAL_CONSERVATIVE ---> Conservative Liberal
+5 MARKET_LIBERAL ---> Market Liberal (todays Conservative Party in UK)
-5 SOCIAL_LIBERAL ---> Social Liberal (Tony Blair' Labour's Party in UK)
-4 SOCIAL_DEMOCRAT ---> Social Democrat (SPD in Germany)
-3 LEFT_WING_RADICAL ---> Social Radical
-2 LENINIST ---> Socialist
-1 STALINIST ---> Communist

This not include national scocialism (or fascism) because government CAN be socialistic and nationalistic using sliders 3 and 4.

What do you think?

 

[The_Carbonater]

That Poland is almost as big as mine, found here on post 472 in this wonderful thread

Btw, keep up the mod, like the style, it's like the Armageddon scenario but better

 

[Atruejedi]

I greatly look forward to playing this mod. If you need any help, I might be able to contribute. I can write events. You might have heard of SMEP.

 

[Ostheim]

@Hanti: I will consider your idea about Germany and France but keep in mind that there was a radical left in Spain as well. I do like the idea of maybe giving the Romans less of the Balkans and some of Spain but I would like more input on this. Keep in mind that the European Workers Union is a result of a socialist proletariat uprising and does not represent anything like the current modern EU if that's what you meant by French-German project. About Poland: This is where the alternative history comes into play. When Poland is at it's peak in this republican commonwealth, the hawks and nationalists seize power. The focus then becomes imperialism and militarism, thus the invasion of a Russia much weaker and smaller than in real history, of course with the help of Red Finland. Poland does not get reduced and cut up so much in this time line and thus has the chance to become a major power rather than the victim of everyone else's conquest. I have seen your suggestion about country names regarding China etc and I have considered making more independent countries and less superpowers but still with ahistorical diplomacy and politics.

I really enjoy the feedback I have gotten as it helps me understand what people would like to see in the mod. I will always consider constructive comments and criticisms as it helps me move forward with the work here. @Atruejedi: If you are willing to make events that would be appreciated. I can do events but the workload is heavy for one person.

Back to the whole debate about ideologies I have restored some of the democratic names as they are solid and well known ideologies and I also have made some other changes:

Extreme Reactionary
Fascist
National Conservative
Social Conservative
Market Liberal
Social Liberal
Social Democrat
Marxist
Extreme Radical

Feedback for further tweaking is welcome.

 

[unmerged(61606)]

wow, this mod looks great! like the Armageddon scenario... only this is worth playing!

 

[Hanti]

Hello again.

1. UE.
I understand your idea. Todays EU is also socialist in nature with all those regulations ("the more the better"), ruling Leftists and supports for workers movements. So that's OK.
I only suggest that it is more likely to create union with two strongest contenders in Europe (France + Germany) than "union" of France and Spain.

2. Spain and Romans.
I didn't mean it's necessary to give Spain to Romans, but IF you wil agree to reunite France and Germany, THEN federation of France, Germany and Spain will be VERY powerfull. I don't know if it's OK with mod so is my suggestion to cut some strenght from that EU monster.


3. Poland.
Poland was a Kingdom, never Empire, never had abolutism traditions. By half of XV century it started to became state ruled by King and nobles together [ "noblecracy' ]
So when you suggest Imperial Poland is like political fiction, not alternate world.
My comments:
-"When Poland is at it's peak in this republican commonwealth" - Commonwealth had a King and was a Monarchy in fact First kings were hereditiary, then we had elections. But kings ruled the Commonwealth untill the destuction of our country in late XVIII.

-"the hawks and nationalists seize power" - allright with the hawks. I like the concept. But nationalists had the power and because of them, their dislikes of equity of Ukrainians we had Ukrainian uprising and lost third part of territory in late XVII. We needed those hawks, because when the uprisings fired, our doves in parliament said "our homes are nor threated, so we won't spend money for DISTANT war with a band of peasants" and lost that war

- "then becomes imperialism and militarism, thus the invasion of a Russia much weaker and smaller than in real history, of course with the help of Red Finland" - good idea The last great invasion against Russia was lunched in 1604-1619 (with the aim of conquering Russia). We took Smolensk and Moskva, but eventually lost Moskva and peace treaty was signed. The last atempt to subjugate Russia was made in 1632-34 but failed and Polsih King Wladislav IV resigned from rights to Russian throne.
In 1648 Ukrainian uprising canceled all "imperial dreams" of Poles.
In alternate world Polish Commonwealth had to prevail in three-nations-state form to be able to lunch invasion against Russia. That's what I am saying.

That's a "gift" for you:
Poland at its peak in XVII:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafika:Irp1635.png

or that one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth

In Wiki they called "Commonwealth" a "republic", but that's wrong. It was electional monarchy, so one can not called it republic. The best word will be probably "federation".

 

[unmerged(54240)]

Looks awesome, only problem I see right now is the color of CSA/UK and Italy/China are too similar, might want to change it. BTW, what is the capital of Pacific Communist League?

Edit: and about your ideology names, it's better to keep it as simple as possible. This is my suggestion:

Fascist
Nationalist
National Conservative
Social Conservative
Market Liberal
Social Liberal
Social Democrat
Marxist
Communist

 

[Ostheim]

@Hanti: Thank you for your perspective and feedback on Poland in my mod. Before I am finished I will look again at the country and decide what changes would be appropriate after considering Poland's earlier history.

@KorPlayer: Pyongyang The ideology names I posted are missing one o

Extreme Reactionary
Fascist
National Conservative
Social Conservative
Market Liberal
Social Liberal
Social Democrat
Marxist
Communist
Extreme Radical

 

[Hanti]

Colors.

OK about Poland.

Now colors!
In your mod there are rather not many countries. So it should be possible to give every country very specific color.

But now three at least countries have very similar:
1. Romans (Italy)
2. West Africa (is it Roman?)
3. something between China nad India.

Also CSA and England colors looks similar.
Black Africa looks diferent from others, but ugly anyway

And ideologies.
I'm not sure it's correct diagram.

Extreme Reactionary - reactionary means monarchist, is it?, are they extreme?
Fascist - fascicts are socialists in nature (national socialists in fact)
National Conservative
Social Conservative
Market Liberal
Social Liberal
Social Democrat
Marxist - what differences do you see between marxists and communists ?
Communist
Extreme Radical -are there more radical leftists than comunists?

 

[Ostheim]

Hanti, there are a limited number of colors available and if you look at the grand campaign you will notice that the same colors are used over and over. No, reactionism is the counterpart to radicalism where radicalism is referring to revolutionary change, reactionism is the right reacting to the radical left to preserve the ruling class. I would not say that fascism contains much of an element of socialism. It is anti-liberal and anti-communist ideology. The reference to Marxism is to provide a specific type of socialism in between democracy and the types of communism that advanced beyond Marx and Lenin like Stalinism and Maoism. I don't know of any words to describe systems as extreme as Stalinism and National Socialism without any historical reference, so I've just tried to define the furthest margins of the spectrum the way I've seen is depicted and explained.

 

[dusan989]

You should make one more country Byzantine Empire. It should get Greece, Bulgaria and west coast of Turkey with capital in Istanbul.

 

[Lord Finnish]

Oh yes will this be for DD or normal HoI2?