The German Question

[unmerged(16159)]

The intention here is to summarise the 2-3 separate threads on the German Question which deal with connected themes, and restart the debate on those issues. I apologise if some of this debate takes a few of us a step or two backward.

Using your feedback I would like to develop a epo_hre.txt file for the War of Religion, and link it with some new work on Bavaria and some other german minors. If some work has been done on this already other than that noted below, then I'd like to help contribute.

For discussion, listed below are the current state of alliances and nations as per Abe2Beta4.

Swabia (german)
Bern, Schwyz, Wurttemberg, Alsace
Gets cores on Wurttemburg, Tirol and Baden.
Inherits Wurttemburg.
Starts with Tirol and Baden as Vassals and an Alliance with both.

Bavaria (german/dutch)
Ansbach, Salzburg, Bayern, Pfalz, Mainz, Holland, Artois, Zeeland.
Gets cores on Tirol, Württemberg, Baden, Alsace, Franconia, Wurzburg.
Starts with Franconia and Brabant as Vassals and an Alliance with Franconia.

Hanseatic League (hanseatic)
Mecklenberg, Bremen, Hamburg, Vorpommern, Koln, Flanders, Novgorod, Anglia, Firenze
Gets cores on Sjaelland, Ingermandland, Bergenhus.
Inherits Oldenburg, Danzig and Brandenburg.

Brandenburg (german)
Brandenburg, Kustrin, Hinterpommern.

Bohemia (czech/german)
Bohemia, Erz, Sudeten, Moravis, Ostmarch, Austria.

Munster (german)
Munster, Kleves.

Gelre (dutch)
Gelre, Friesland.

Stiermark (german)
Stiermark, Istria.

Single province states:
Franconia, Luxembourg, Tirol, Hessen, Hannover, Altmark, Oldenburg, Baden, Silesia, Danzig.

-----------------------------------------------

So, the issues as I understand them.


Problem:
Constant early warring status of the german minors.
Aim:
The aim is to provide a vibrant collection of german minors for as long as possible, perhaps well past the wars after the reformation, but not so vibrant that they hit the 'kill' button on the 1st January 1419.
Suggestion:
The consensus here seems to be a minor tweaking of the ai files (currently being done by MattyG) and (as suggested by a number of contributors) scripting a set of Alliances, good Relations and Royal Marriages from the begining of the scenario. I suggest three german.ai files, the first used as a default by the german minors leading up to the War of Religion, a second used by those who participate in that WoR, and a third for the period thereafter.

I propose also the following RM/Alliance networks, ie a many small alliances rather than 2-3 large ones. This is reflecting a pre-game history of a few interwoven marriages and relationships between royal houses throughout germany.

- Brandenburg/Hessen/Hannover
- Munster/Baden
- Altmark/Silesia
- Bavaria/Franconia
- Swabia/Tirol
- Hansa/Oldenburg
- Friesen/Gelre

I suggest also that 1 or 2 single-prov states could have an Alliance with a powerful but remote ally. Luxembourg being owned or vassalised by Hungary has been suggested by Incompetent, Hansa already owns Koln, and we could start with Burgundy and Baden in an alliance.

Further, we create (have just created) a german Protector of the Small Guy. A potential PotSG is Brandenburg, now a 3-province state. Brandenburg could start with some good monarchs and perhaps a general, but after the reformation things decline, the monarchs worsen and a series of events see it shed provinces. Thus it starts as a protector of the small (HessHann), and then, when it's job is done, it retires gracefully from the stage. If it starts with 'wendish' culture (in Brandenburg and Kustrin with Hinterpommern remaining baltic), then it's less likely to profit from gains in german territory and become an OPotSG (Overbloated Protector of the Small Guy). When it finally declines as a state, it becomes 'german' and a FPotSG (or Faded Protector of the Small Guy).


Problem:
Curbing the rampant Bavarians/Swabians/Hansa
Aim:
Controlling the majors from dominating germany. To let the minors survive a little longer than they normally do in SP and MP play, and least until the WoR.
Suggestion:
There is less consensus here, and opinions vary from castrating Bavaria to strengthening the minors. Removing the Hanseatic League from the german theatre might well have helped solve part two of this aim, but will not have helped part one.

-We start Bavaria without dutch culture and give them a series of events which continually test this relationship, particularly during and after the Reformation. Those events should also enable it to slowly gain dutch culture, should it choose the right path. Also, if we see Bavaria as a nation having recently forceannexed a variety of provinces, then this needs to be reflected in it's BB score, currently at "0". 10 sounds more like it. Bavaria As The Pariah means also, that it's relationships with it's neighbours perhaps start at -100 (instead of the current +100) which helps prevent them creating any new alliances, but again a series of events could give them the opportunity to improve this. Add a bay_peaceful.ai file and see what happens. (?)

- Swabia - also a very strong starter - could lose the Baden vassalage, and revert to Land 7 or 8 (instead of 10!). In this case they would keep Tirol as Vassal and Alliance. Other than a series of avoidable religious revolts, there isn't much to the Swabian file, but that thread is up and running and we should see some events come out of it. Like the choices offered Brittany, it would be nice to see Swabia have the options to get into, or drift out, of the german theatre.

- The Hanseatic League should lose the "Brandenburg Inheritance" event. Even though Brandenburg controls a key trade route along the Spree, inheriting 3 provinces is too much for a state which starts with 3 CoTs, and 9 provinces. The hsa_1419.inc file should reflect a tendency for outwards rather than germanic expansion. It should have some +100 Relations with provinces along trade routes and it's immediate neighbours, reinforcing the prospect of alliances, and preventing a Hanseatic DoW of minors.

- Teutonic Order, Burgundy, Hungary and Bohemia. Not sure.


Problem:
War of Religion
Aim:
To write one.
Suggestion:
I am on it. I will be using Incompetent's excellent suggestions (here), and the existing Swabian/Luther events as starting points. Comments welcome.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

Okay. Before we can have a war of religion, we need to have a mix of religions. Currently the provinces are hard-coded to change to particular religions, dependent upon their RealWorld status and the vanilla coding. This means that in 1520, after conquering 3 provs, Altmark might find itself protestant, with 2 catholic provinces and 1 protestant and another reformed. This works aginst the real world Reformation, where the even at the Imperial Diet of Augsburg acknowledged that the prevailing religion of each state should be that of it's ruler.

The events below attempt to reflect this in game terms. I propose that all HRE states are hard-coded catholic, and that the events below change the religion, in the same way that the reformation itself saw the rulers of a nation as the accepted defender of the particular faith.

However, I am not sure it this will work as I am anticipating, and I welcome your communal review.


event = {
id = xxxx00
random = no
country = BRA
trigger = {
flag = 1
}
name = "Martin Luther"
desc = "The onset of the Reformation affected all european nations, whether they see the opportunity for conversion or not. Certainly those german royal houses who could control the clergy found more freedom under the protestant faith, new enemies, and new alliances. And while the wars would drain the coffers of Europe, and the men from the fields, they would usher in a new tolerance and acceptance of innovation and change, that would make the explosion of learning in the 17th century possible."
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1520 }
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1600 }
action_a = {
name = "So the rebellion against the Pope has begun!"
command = { type = ai which = "hre1515_1650.ai" }
}
}


This brings in a new ai file, more warlike than the old. Then, from 1520 or so, the individual states accept their own religion, dependant upon their level of innovation. (This is something we can affect, with a limited number of events in each file, and tinkering with the *.inc files.)


event = {
id = xxxx01
random = no
country = BRA
trigger = {
flag = 1
religion = catholic
domestic = { type = innovative value = 7 }
NOT = { event = xxxx02 }
NOT = { event = xxxx03 }
}
name = "A Matter of Faith and Politics""
desc = "The rulers of Brandenburg listened to their religious advisors, and saw both merit in the protestant interpretation of the scriptures, and political leverage in their acceptance."
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1520 }
offset = 360
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1600 }
action_a = {
name = "Lead the people to acceptance of the new faith!"
command = { type = religion which = protestant }
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = provincereligion which = -2 value = protestant }
command = { type = provincereligion which = -1 value = protestant }
command = { type = provincereligion which = -1 value = protestant }
command = { type = revolt which = -3 }
command = { type = ADM which = -2 value = 24 }
}
action_b = {
name = "Reinforce the existing order in a changing world."
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
}
}



event = {
id = xxxx02
random = no
country = BRA
trigger = {
flag = 2
religion = catholic
domestic = { type = innovative value = 8 }
NOT = { domestic = { type = serfdom value = 2 } }
NOT = { event = xxxx01 }
NOT = { event = xxxx03 }
}
name = "A Matter of Faith and Politics"
desc = "The rulers of Brandenburg listened to their religious advisors, and saw both merit in Jean Calvin's interpretation of the scriptures, and political leverage in their acceptance."
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1540 }
offset = 360
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1600 }
action_a = {
name = "Lead the people to acceptance of the new faith!"
command = { type = religion which = reformed }
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = provincereligion which = -2 value = reformed }
command = { type = provincereligion which = -1 value = reformed }
command = { type = provincereligion which = -1 value = reformed }
command = { type = revolt which = -3 }
command = { type = ADM which = -2 value = 24 }
}
action_b = {
name = "Reinforce the existing order in a changing world."
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
}
}

event = {
id = xxxx03
random = no
country = BRA
trigger = {
flag = 3
religion = catholic
NOT = { domestic = { type = innovative value = 4 } }
domestic = { type = serfdom value = 7 }
NOT = { event = xxxx01 }
NOT = { event = xxxx02 }
}
name = "A Matter of Faith and Politics"
desc = "The rulers of Brandenburg listened to their religious advisors, and saw purity in the papal interpretation of the scriptures, and also a certain amount of political leverage in their acceptance."
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1570 }
offset = 360
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1600 }
action_a = {
name = "Strengthen the people's religious fervour!"
command = { type = religion which = counterreform }
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = provincereligion which = -2 value = counterreform }
command = { type = provincereligion which = -1 value = counterreform }
command = { type = provincereligion which = -1 value = counterreform }
command = { type = revolt which = -3 }
command = { type = ADM which = -2 value = 24 }
}
action_b = {
name = "Reinforce the existing order in a changing world."
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
}
}


Then, after The Council of Trent, some minors might convert back...


event = {
id = xxxx11
random = no
country = BRA
trigger = {
flag = 1
religion = protestant
NOT = { domestic = { type = innovative value = 3 }
domestic = { type = serfdom value = 6 }
}
name = "A Matter of Faith and Politics"
desc = "TEXT"
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1550 }
offset = 360
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1600 }
action_a = {
name = "Force the people to accept the new faith!"
command = { type = religion which = catholic }
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = provincereligion which = -2 value = catholic }
command = { type = provincereligion which = -1 value = catholic }
command = { type = revolt which = -3 }
command = { type = ADM which = -2 value = 24 }
}
action_b = {
name = "Reinforce the existing order in a changing world"
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
}
}

 

[unmerged(16159)]

I had thought that we could set a series of flags, each for a separate intensity of Reformation. For example, had the Pope listened to the teachings of Erasmus and others who were pushing reform, the general level of acceptance to the protests of Luther might have been greater. Could this have led to a bloodless Reformation? Which in turn would have made Loyola and the Jesuits less fanatical? Maybe. But it gets tricky to put this in game terms.

What I am suggesting here is a straight forward Reformation, but the indivudual consequences of this event to individual HRE minors will depoend large on the triggers in the event file below.

To simulate the chaotic nature of the political situation, we have to guess a little at who will be catholic, and who will be protestant, and the nature of their alliances at the time. This is an example for Brandeburg, DoWing Hessen, but every one of the HRE minors would have 8 sets of these files, for catholic, protestant, reformed and counter-reformed, against two different and close neighbours. Generally these conflicts will be set up to match similar sized states. This is to be matched with the warlike ai file kicking in around 1525 (see previous Reply) ( MattyG? ).

Commands of which are of dubious technical merit are in yellow.


event = {
id = xxxx21
random = yes
country = BRA
trigger = {
ai = no
religion = catholic
domestic = { type = serfdom value = 4 }
exists = HES
OR = {
religion = { country = HES data = protestant }
religion = { country = HES data = reformed }
}
NOT = {
domestic = { type = innovative value = 7 }
relation = { country = HES value = 120 }
alliance = { country = BRA country = HES }
war = { country = BRA country = HES }
}
}
name = " A Religious Crusade "
desc = "The ruler of Brandenburg was incensed at the increasing power of the heathen churchmen and the Saxony prince who protected them. Together with their allies they declared upon Hessen, using religion as holy cause for war"
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1525 }
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1600 }
action_a = {
name = "Declare war on the heretics!"
command = { type = casusbelli which = HES value = 6 }
command = { type = war which = HES }
command = { type = stability value = -2 }
}
action_b = {
name = "Ostracise the heretics!"
command = { type = breakdynastic which = HES }
command = { type = casusbelli which = HES value = 24 }
command = { type = breakvassal which = HES }
command = { type = relation which = HES value = -100 }
command = { type = trade value = -500 }
}
}

 

[unmerged(31994)]

Well may I suggest something?why not use the peaceful ais for the German minors?

 

[unmerged(33565)]

Commands of which are of dubious technical merit are in yellow.


event = {
id = xxxx21
random = yes
country = BRA
trigger = {
ai = no
religion = catholic
domestic = { type = serfdom value = 4 }
exists = HES
OR = {
religion = { country = HES data = protestant }
religion = { country = HES data = reformed }
}
NOT = {
domestic = { type = innovative value = 7 }
relation = { country = HES value = 120 }
alliance = { country = BRA country = HES }
war = { country = BRA country = HES }
}
}
name = " A Religious Crusade "
desc = "The ruler of Brandenburg was incensed at the increasing power of the heathen churchmen and the Saxony prince who protected them. Together with their allies they declared upon Hessen, using religion as holy cause for war"
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1525 }
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1600 }
action_a = {
name = "Declare war on the heretics!"
command = { type = casusbelli which = HES value = 6 }
command = { type = war which = HES }
command = { type = stability value = -2 }
}
action_b = {
name = "Ostracise the heretics!"
command = { type = breakdynastic which = HES }
command = { type = casusbelli which = HES value = 24 }
command = { type = breakvassal which = HES }
command = { type = relation which = HES value = -100 }
command = { type = trade value = -500 }
}
}

I really don't know about tossing around the war command like that in random events. Especial since the B option is almost useless, most of the time your have a really low relation with non catholic nations as it is, and can't have RM and could not vassize them with out a force vasselize, at which point why would you ostracise them?? This could lead to some really bad things for the AI.

I would like to see this more of a leaders down reformation too, one way I would like to see it done is 2 AI events, when a nation picks,

"Do you want to do this"
A: Yes
B: No

Then:
"Are you sure"
A: Yes, do it
B: No

That would give the AI a 10% chance that it would not convert. Of course you would have to decide ahead of time which nations are likely to convert and which not. Once they convert, then you could write in a bunch of province conversions events. You could also do the AGCEEP way and have an unused tag have a set of events that determines if it is a medium, low or high reformation and wake or sleep sets of these events.

For instance, Altmark might not convert to protestant if it is a low reformation, but if the reformed movement ends up high and protestant low, then it would turn reformed. But if protestant was medium or high, it would be protestant. If both were low, then it would be catholic.

I think that most of the majors should be predetermined what should be the best path for them, maybe a few exceptions like Savory or Hungary.

Heres how I see the majors:

Totally Catholic:
Burgundy, TO, Erie, Genoa, Sicily

Mostly Catholic:
Bavaria (very slim chance it converts, probably high on both)

Mostly Protestant:
Swabia (might stay catholic if it goes too far into Italy)

Protestants:
UOK, Brittany, Burgundy

Mostly Reformed:
Savory (would have to be low on at least one)

Reformed:
League, Scotland

The Wild card:
Hungary (interesting battle ground events)

One thing for sure, why limit the war to one area. France could certainly see conflict as well as Poland and in the Baltic. You could make this a true 30 year war feel throughout western Europe.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Why is Burgundy both totally protestant and totally catholic, otherwise it's the religous diversions I was thinking of myself.

 

[Incompetent]

Problem:
Curbing the rampant Bavarians/Swabians/Hansa
Aim:
Controlling the majors from dominating germany. To let the minors survive a little longer than they normally do in SP and MP play, and least until the WoR.

Well, they're bound to dominate Germany, as if they didn't they wouldn't be majors. It's like asking that Cordoba shouldn't dominate Iberia. But certainly we want the minors to survive longer, and I agree that the tangle of alliances, marriages etc is a good way of achieving this, together with very low war settings (at least until the religious wars).

For Swabia, I don't think much needs to be done to make them weaker. True, they sometimes take over most of the HRE, but then so does everyone sometimes, from Bohemia to Münster.

For Bavaria, we have a big decision to make. The Dukes of Bavaria can be tyrants, emperors or also-rans. They can't be more than one of these at once though. My vote would be for Bavaria starting as a reasonably benign nexus of the HRE, with a good chance of hanging onto the imperial throne, but when the Reformation comes, things turn sour and Bavaria embarks on a gamble for supremacy.

I'm very much in favour of an epo_hre file, with Bavaria as the protagonist, and I think there has to be the possibility of war escalating as much as it did historically. One thing we have to consider though is how much poorer the HRE will be after the turmoil, and how this affects the balance of power. I don't think it would be a disaster if victory for Bavaria in the religious wars results in a radically redrawn HRE, with Bavaria supreme over most of it, significant Teutonic and Burgundian conquests on the fringes, and defiance of the new Catholic/Bavarian supremacy confined to the Hanseatic and Dutch coasts. If there is no possibility of such a great victory, Bavarian players will just wimp out of the conflict in order to avoid a devastating defeat.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

Well, they're bound to dominate Germany, as if they didn't they wouldn't be majors. It's like asking that Cordoba shouldn't dominate Iberia. But certainly we want the minors to survive longer, and I agree that the tangle of alliances, marriages etc is a good way of achieving this, together with very low war settings (at least until the religious wars).

I don't know about Cordoba, sorry. Perhaps Iberia is poorer, and it makes sense. Dunno. But if we take Hansa out of Germany, and don't make Swabia a major, then Bavaria is expanding in a vacuum, through very rich provinces, against small and badly run statelets. Almost every other theatre has been divided into smaller cultures, or attempts are being made to balance out the majors. Not so with germany, yet.

For Swabia, I don't think much needs to be done to make them weaker. True, they sometimes take over most of the HRE, but then so does everyone sometimes, from Bohemia to Münster.

For Bavaria, we have a big decision to make. The Dukes of Bavaria can be tyrants, emperors or also-rans. They can't be more than one of these at once though. My vote would be for Bavaria starting as a reasonably benign nexus of the HRE, with a good chance of hanging onto the imperial throne, but when the Reformation comes, things turn sour and Bavaria embarks on a gamble for supremacy.

I'm very much in favour of an epo_hre file, with Bavaria as the protagonist, and I think there has to be the possibility of war escalating as much as it did historically.

Aaaah, I think it would be a mistake to have the whole thing revolving around Bavaria. While I understand they are seen in Abe as the main Holy Roman Emperor, to make them the protagonist implies (in terms of our aberrated 'history') that the war of religion/reformation is a bavarian personal crusade. All the local princes and kings in the HRE also had their own axe to grind, and assuming the mantle of protestant state (or remaining catholic) gave them the political leverage and casus belli they had been craving. I'd like to see a logical aberrated history which tells the story of Bavaria in a central role. The Real World outcome was far more logical for us, considering the political makeup of the times. And we haven't really changed that make-up significantly in our 1419 set-up.

Perhaps there could be two Reformations written. One sees events explode in a simulation of the Thirty Years war as best we can write, and the second kicks in if Bavaria is bigger than - say - 15 provinces, and half the current minor HRE states don't exist. Then suddenly it is the Bavarian Gamble you describe.

One thing we have to consider though is how much poorer the HRE will be after the turmoil, and how this affects the balance of power. I don't think it would be a disaster if victory for Bavaria in the religious wars results in a radically redrawn HRE, with Bavaria supreme over most of it, significant Teutonic and Burgundian conquests on the fringes, and defiance of the new Catholic/Bavarian supremacy confined to the Hanseatic and Dutch coasts. If there is no possibility of such a great victory, Bavarian players will just wimp out of the conflict in order to avoid a devastating defeat.

Bavaria played by any decent SP or MP player would grow to dominate germany, simply because there are no MP players in the same arena, and a clever Bavaria player can use the constant warring of the War of Religion to pick off the weak nations. If they haven't stolen every seige going with their consistently good military monarchs and highly ranked leaders, then the Bavarian player needs some more time in the practise nets. At the moment I don't think it's the gamble we romantically think it might be. The challenge here would be to make it a challenge.

I do like the idea of this War rewriting the german map, and setting a new direction for the surrounding nations. I don't like it if the redrawn map of Europe has replaced the white blob of Austria with the blue blob of Bavaria.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

I really don't know about tossing around the war command like that in random events. Especial since the B option is almost useless, most of the time your have a really low relation with non catholic nations as it is, and can't have RM and could not vassize them with out a force vasselize, at which point why would you ostracise them?? This could lead to some really bad things for the AI.

Ah bugger, yes. You are right. Perhaps a warlike ai file, plus a deteriorating relationship, and a casus belli or two would be enough to encourage a short period of constant warring.

And option B is useless. Back to the drawing board.

I would like to see this more of a leaders down reformation too, one way I would like to see it done is 2 AI events, when a nation picks,

"Do you want to do this"
A: Yes
B: No

Then:
"Are you sure"
A: Yes, do it
B: No

That would give the AI a 10% chance that it would not convert. Of course you would have to decide ahead of time which nations are likely to convert and which not. Once they convert, then you could write in a bunch of province conversions events. You could also do the AGCEEP way and have an unused tag have a set of events that determines if it is a medium, low or high reformation and wake or sleep sets of these events.

For instance, Altmark might not convert to protestant if it is a low reformation, but if the reformed movement ends up high and protestant low, then it would turn reformed. But if protestant was medium or high, it would be protestant. If both were low, then it would be catholic.

Nice. I thought along these lines but reasoned it would be too hard. Where could I find these events? Are they in the latest AGCEEP?

I think that most of the majors should be predetermined what should be the best path for them, maybe a few exceptions like Savory or Hungary.

Heres how I see the majors:

Totally Catholic:
Burgundy, TO, Erie, Genoa, Sicily

Mostly Catholic:
Bavaria (very slim chance it converts, probably high on both)

Mostly Protestant:
Swabia (might stay catholic if it goes too far into Italy)

Protestants:
UOK, Brittany, Burgundy

Mostly Reformed:
Savory (would have to be low on at least one)

Reformed:
League, Scotland

The Wild card:
Hungary (interesting battle ground events)

One thing for sure, why limit the war to one area. France could certainly see conflict as well as Poland and in the Baltic. You could make this a true 30 year war feel throughout western Europe.

I like this list as well. Currently the league could also go Protestant when the Pleskows make a play for distatorship in 1529.

I love the idea of this war spreading out to France, Hungary, Bohemia and aacross to the Baltic. Interesting.

 

[unmerged(33565)]

Nice. I thought along these lines but reasoned it would be too hard. Where could I find these events? Are they in the latest AGCEEP?

Yea its in the Reformation folder in the RNGC_Main event file. All you would need to do is have is set the flags, then have events that trigger events in the countries that determind what they do, depending on the flags. All you need is a tag for an immortal country over looking it all.

I put Burgondy in both btw because I typed that up after working 16 hours streight , need to stop doing that. It should be catholic.

 

[MattyG]

mikl,

Excellent concept overall. This idea is the very heart and soul of Aberration. Variety, alt history and geared towards the multiplayer environement. Well done. This will be your masterpiece if you can pull it off.

That's the big question. I see a lot of work here in securing the events and ensuring the structure will work and work into all the diverse nations that will be effected by it. You won't be alone, I will certainly offer assistance (maybe we can work on it together in Melbourne ...?).

But don't expect instant results and know that there will be a steep learning curve in crafting relational events and editing those weird files that billdo mentioned.

I look forward to reading more draft ideas.

Matty

 

[unmerged(16159)]

......if you can pull it off.

Well, this is the big question. An epo_hre.txt file, an expanded major_bay.txt file, and substantial contributions to the major_swa.txt file. It's stunning how little there is at the moment, even in the vanilla files.

So I will be taking it back even a step or two further, with an alternative history of the HRE from the Reformation onwards for the Aberrated game. When this has aired on the forum for a while, I will start posting preliminary code. But I need to get the basics right first.





PS
Dunno about Melbourne. William is expecting to beat you at chess, and I told him you were an expert at "Age of Empires". You are going to be busy.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

Some ideas after 6 weeks of Deep Thought


The German Minors

In Aberrated history the german states remain fragmented through to the start of the Refomation, since we lack the mighty Austrian Hapburgs as a unifying element but primarily with a little help from some revised ai files. This is a good thing.

For the Reformation as planned to make sense, the minors must exist. If they get absorbed by an overzealous AI or by a keen player, a lot of the dynamic of this period of our aberrated history will be lost. We can artificially breakup the minor states from 1480 to 1510 using a series of royal deaths and inheritances. Realms of smaller princedoms shared between inheriting sons of dead regents, if Bavaria, Swabia, Brandenburg or Saxony get ubergross. Hansa and TO, without the importance of the royal marriage system, shuck these german minors "constitutionally", especially if they are non-core provinces.

So an artificial balancer, for example, Saxony:

event = {
id = xxxx01
random = no
country = SAC
trigger = { countrysize = 5
}
name = "The Death of the Elector""
desc = "The Elector of Saxony Ernst died and his first son Friedrich III der Weise succeeded him. But it was his wish at death to provide for his other sons Wilhelm and Charlotte Turbulentus. Military sucesses of Hessen and Hannover were given to those progeny to avoid dispute, and to retain familial power among the Saxon states."
date = { day = 26 month = august year = 1486 }
action_a = {
name = "Let Wilhelm and Charlotte Turbulentus rule, somewhere !"
command = { type = independence which = HES }
command = { type = independence which = HAN }
command = { type = independence which = MUN }
command = { type = dynastic which = HES }
command = { type = dynastic which = HAN }
command = { type = dynastic which = MUN }
command = { type = stability value = 2 }
}
action_b = {
name = "Let Friedrich rule over his younger siblings"
command = { type = independence which = HES }
command = { type = independence which = HAN }
command = { type = independence which = MUN }
command = { type = vassal which = HES }
command = { type = vassal which = HAN }
command = { type = vassal which = MUN }
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
}
action_c = {
name = "Let Turbulentus and Wilhelm get nothing"
command = { type = stability value = -2 }
}

Action_c leads to revolts, and probable loss of the provinces anyway. While this might be self-defeating for the player who takes on Saxony, it leads to inheritance events later on, as Wilhelm fails to beget sons and his daughter dies of smallpox, etc etc., returning the province to Saxon hands after the Reformation, perhaps with the bonus of religious conversion and a core.

So during the Reformation, the states of Swabia, Teutonic Order and Bavaria (and to a lesser extent Saxony and Brandenburg) step into a power vacuum, and by the end of the constant religious wars of the 16th Century, the german states are close to formation as distinct power blocs. It is the use the this religious revolution by the major german states which heralds the decline of the independence of the german prince, and the final confluence of german power under (temporarily) one hand. A single german state exists then for the first time. This new power block will cause concern among the great houses of Europe in the 17th Century.



Germany.

This could be created, in our Aberrated history, under certain circumstances:

#1 Bavaria or Swabia ( or Teutonic Order ?), come out of the War of Religion dominant, having made a declaration earlier of religious crusade. Having a country size of - say - 10 HRE provinces including 4 out of a critical 6.

#2 The Reformation becomes a history of rebellions rather than crusades. The Protestant Confederation which arises from the heary of this rebellion forms the nucleus of a stronger state, and a possible Germany.

#3 In the absence of conditions #1 and #2 above, Germany as a Tollverein begins to take shape once the Reformation is over. Certainly, without the Hapsburgs or a dominant Bavaria, the Tollverein becomes a strong political entity, earlier than IRL. In the game it takes the form of a long series of events, of trading blocs competing with Hanseatic power.

The prescence of a Germany configures everything about HRE politics for the 17th Century. How? Dunno yet.

 

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Some ideas after 6 weeks of Deep Thought


The German Minors

In Aberrated history the german states remain fragmented through to the start of the Refomation, since we lack the mighty Austrian Hapburgs as a unifying element but primarily with a little help from some revised ai files. This is a good thing.

For the Reformation as planned to make sense, the minors must exist. If they get absorbed by an overzealous AI or by a keen player, a lot of the dynamic of this period of our aberrated history will be lost. We can artificially breakup the minor states from 1480 to 1510 using a series of royal deaths and inheritances. Realms of smaller princedoms shared between inheriting sons of dead regents, if Bavaria, Swabia, Brandenburg or Saxony get ubergross. Hansa and TO, without the importance of the royal marriage system, shuck these german minors "constitutionally", especially if they are non-core provinces.

So an artificial balancer, for example, Saxony:

event = {
id = xxxx01
random = no
country = SAC
trigger = { countrysize = 5
}
name = "The Death of the Elector""
desc = "The Elector of Saxony Ernst died and his first son Friedrich III der Weise succeeded him. But it was his wish at death to provide for his other sons Wilhelm and Charlotte Turbulentus. Military sucesses of Hessen and Hannover were given to those progeny to avoid dispute, and to retain familial power among the Saxon states."
date = { day = 26 month = august year = 1486 }
action_a = {
name = "Let Wilhelm and Charlotte Turbulentus rule, somewhere !"
command = { type = independence which = HES }
command = { type = independence which = HAN }
command = { type = independence which = MUN }
command = { type = dynastic which = HES }
command = { type = dynastic which = HAN }
command = { type = dynastic which = MUN }
command = { type = stability value = 2 }
}
action_b = {
name = "Let Friedrich rule over his younger siblings"
command = { type = independence which = HES }
command = { type = independence which = HAN }
command = { type = independence which = MUN }
command = { type = vassal which = HES }
command = { type = vassal which = HAN }
command = { type = vassal which = MUN }
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
}
action_c = {
name = "Let Turbulentus and Wilhelm get nothing"
command = { type = stability value = -2 }
}

Action_c leads to revolts, and probable loss of the provinces anyway. While this might be self-defeating for the player who takes on Saxony, it leads to inheritance events later on, as Wilhelm fails to beget sons and his daughter dies of smallpox, etc etc., returning the province to Saxon hands after the Reformation, perhaps with the bonus of religious conversion and a core.

So during the Reformation, the states of Swabia, Teutonic Order and Bavaria (and to a lesser extent Saxony and Brandenburg) step into a power vacuum, and by the end of the constant religious wars of the 16th Century, the german states are close to formation as distinct power blocs. It is the use the this religious revolution by the major german states which heralds the decline of the independence of the german prince, and the final confluence of german power under (temporarily) one hand. A single german state exists then for the first time. This new power block will cause concern among the great houses of Europe in the 17th Century.



Germany.

This could be created, in our Aberrated history, under certain circumstances:

#1 Bavaria or Swabia ( or Teutonic Order ?), come out of the War of Religion dominant, having made a declaration earlier of religious crusade. Having a country size of - say - 10 HRE provinces including 4 out of a critical 6.

#2 The Reformation becomes a history of rebellions rather than crusades. The Protestant Confederation which arises from the heary of this rebellion forms the nucleus of a stronger state, and a possible Germany.

#3 In the absence of conditions #1 and #2 above, Germany as a Tollverein begins to take shape once the Reformation is over. Certainly, without the Hapsburgs or a dominant Bavaria, the Tollverein becomes a strong political entity, earlier than IRL. In the game it takes the form of a long series of events, of trading blocs competing with Hanseatic power.

The prescence of a Germany configures everything about HRE politics for the 17th Century. How? Dunno yet.

just a comment...

With how Bavaria starts in Aberration and the implied history of how they got there, you just replace the position the Hapsburgs were IRL with the Wittelsbach dynasty. They would fill that vaccum nicely, and if not for a few setbacks IRL could have made a much bigger rival to the Austrians then they were, Max Emmanuels son dying and not inhereting Spain is just one example of what I mean by that.

Now considering that the Hapsburgs were more a conquest through marriage kind of family and with a few exceptions were not noted for their individual prowess on the battlefield; and the Wittelsbachs were pretty keen on the marriage angle as well (but did not engage in the kind of incestuos intermarriage that the Hapsburgs did on an occassion or twelve), but were also noted for a number of members of the extended family being competent to brilliant generals (Prince Rupert, Karl XII etc), I would submit that they would have a much stronger hand in Aberration then the Habsburgs had in IRL of unifying Germany.