The Genoese Emporer

[unmerged(6159)]

Adding this to my summary, things look like:

TEST	HAB Bonus	HAB bonus/weight	Number of Electors
IB 1564		695		66		14
IB 1619		758		80		13
Cs 1619		939		99		11
Cs 1658		737		78		10
IB 1658		1192		199		6

Which doesn't get me any closer to the answer, but is interesting just the same. Any thoughts?

 

[Chas]

1. The asymmetric adjustment of weights in the save file is only valid as long as the election is on a date other than 1st of month - this is because normal game adjustments to rels take place just before the election and, at least for adjusted rels, the matrix is reset to symmetrical. So I assume your Iroquois election was on another date.

2. Your result seems to confirm that the more electors there are, the more 'likely' it is that there are low-weighted electors. We know it isn't as simple as a fixed relationship between no. electors and weights, but still....

3. Your Iroquois save looks very like my KNI 1705 results that I started off with right at the beginning. Since the discovery of the L3 phenomenon I haven't touched this game. You can look back at the detailed results. In summary, there were 7 electors, KNI was right on the margin of being able to win at all, and the bonus was around 1200. I did not explicitly test for elector weights, but there was no prima facie evidence that any of the electors were weighted. I have not tried to make an L3 invariant save.

4. Might the base bonus be 1200, less some amount for the each low-weighted elector? Or something like this?

5. I'm not surprised that you could not find any other save file factors that relate in any simple way to the results, I have found the same. I still wonder if alliances or being at war have some effect, but if so, it's not straightforward.

6. No news from me as I am in the middle of computer upgrades and have no EU installed at the moment. And EU2 is about to be released here, so I may move over to that. It looks like you are playing both. Do you have them installed on the same machine and if so, do they coexist happily? If so I'll reinstall it and may try some more tests.

6. But, I admit to losing confidence. I don't really have enough faith in Paradox - we may be looking at a designed, if weird, election system, or we may be looking at the side effects of bugs. I do believe they are desperate to protect the AI from human players decoding all their AI systems, both by allowing large random effects in the game (whether deliberate or bug related) and by disinformation on the forum. I'm afraid I think they would be happiest if there is no reproducible election system, so I do fear that I (we) have been wasting my time.

 

[Chas]

Sharur, is it the same as the list you posted a week or so ago? It may very well be a different system for EU2 but all clues are interesting.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

1. I should have mentioned thata
I moved the election date in the save file so it's 20 Jan rather than 1 Jan.

3. I was thinking about that KNI save also - I noticed the similarity. Any chance you could work through the weights on that one? At least there is a viable theory that when the number of electors is low the bonus is 1200.

4. I'm still finding my way around EUII, there aren't that many differences, but they matter. Both games coexist fine, and as I have two CD drives I don't even have to switch that out. It seems to load faster too.

6. I haven't given up. By I need to think things over - there has to be something sensible going on underneath it all. And I'm not sure there's active misinformation on the forum.

PS - a thought. I suspect that when there are few electors (<8?) the weights are all 1. If we could confirm that for <8 electors all weights are 1 and the bonus is always 1200 (or whatever else the bonus is doing) we might be on our way.

 

[Sharur]

Is this project still active?

 

[unmerged(5112)]

Now it is

 

[Carolus Rex]

I haven't followed this project very closely(duh!), seems to me as if ur trying to figure out the HRE Electors stuff.

I could move this to GD or Scenario if you'd like it, perhaps more people would notice it that way.

 

[Sharur]

Carolus, you're a mod?!!!

That might not be a bad idea, but you should alert Isaac Brock and Chas before you do.

And yes, it is trying to determine how the HRE is elected. I would recommend moving it to GD.

EDIT: copy it to GD, actually, to get the discussion going (EU2 GD, preferrably), but leave the thread here, too, b/c not only does it actually contain an aar (way back there), but it would be nice to have an "un-spammed" copy.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

I'm afraid I've mostly given up. I am planning to write up a 'how-to' based on what we know now (weighted sum of relations, big bonus for HAB, some bonus for SPA, wieghts in order of the save file, etc.). If anyone has some noew insight on where the weights or bonus' might be coming from (everything else is understood) I may well investigate otherwise I'm admitting defeat. VEry depressing.

 

[Chas]

You can move it if you like. I'm also at a loss as to how to proceed. IB asked me to do one more scenario for him, which I might when I've finished my current EU2 game, but I fear it will not help much. I also am inclined to give up. As I've said in a previous post, I'm not sure I any longer believe that there is any rational explanantion for the HRE election in EU1 - it's probably bug-related behaviour that we see.

After I've got reasonably proficient at EU2 I'm game to try and work out the election for that one - though I note I've had some crashes on reloads, which does not bode well for testing.

Do you think that there will ever be a time, when EU2 is released everywhere and EU1 doesn't matter any more, that Johan would come clean about the EU1 election?

 

[unmerged(6159)]

My opinion is that it isn't bugged, it just has a complicated algorithm that will take dozens of cases to untangle. Presumably that was the intent, however we can offer good advice for someone who wants to be elected.

 

[Sharur]

You could always just give the BiB answer: "Have good rels w/ electors"

I think that pursuing the HRE method in EU2 would be easier, actually, due in part to the text file that includes electors per country. If you do decide to pursue that, please do so on the EU2 AAR board

 

[Chas]

Just to discourage us, and not to immediately get off topic, but this thread has a claim of a protestant HRE in EU2.

I suppose if we are to discuss this we should move to another forum. Maybe we should get some collected wisdom on the General Discussion forum before using the AAR forum? Anyway, testing stops all game playing and I'd still like to play it a bit first.

 

[Carolus Rex]

Originally posted by Sharur
Carolus, you're a mod?!!!

That might not be a bad idea, but you should alert Isaac Brock and Chas before you do.

And yes, it is trying to determine how the HRE is elected. I would recommend moving it to GD.

EDIT: copy it to GD, actually, to get the discussion going (EU2 GD, preferrably), but leave the thread here, too, b/c not only does it actually contain an aar (way back there), but it would be nice to have an "un-spammed" copy.

I guess I could copy it to GD1(as it is) and split the thread and leave the AAR here and take the HRE posts to the EU2 Scenario Forum or GD2. IMO Scenario would be more appropriate and u still will get a lot of traffic there.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

I'll open a new thread tommorrow in GD (or FAQ), and provide the link here.

 

[Sharur]

Please link from this thread as well, so that I can see it

 

[Carolus Rex]

K, I won't touch it then, u do the link and I'll just sit on my hands.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Sit away. Here is the link