The Genoese Aristocratic Republic and the issue of country loans

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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

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Hi everyone, it is my first thread here and I hope i twill be appreciated, since I was thinking about some more. First of all, I am not an historian (I could not be farthest, since I am a Bioengineer), but I am Italian and this prompts me to discuss some changes and improvements to the Italian nations that I hope will convince more players to have fun and “feel the flavor” while playing in the Italian peninsula.

In this thread, I’m gonna talk about two things: a proposal for a unique government form (with associated reform) for the Republic of Genoa, and then a proposal not to change but to solve some problems with country loans. Let us start by addressing the former:

The “Riforma Nuova” of 1528 and the Genoese Aristocratic Republic

Genova_Stemma.png


-A brief (but not so brief) introduction

When Andrea Doria obtained the independence of the Republic of Genoa thanks to the alliance with Charles V, he proceeded to reform the government. The Doge became a two-year’s office (before it was until death) and the Doge was helped by 12 senators and 8 procurators in the administration. Every semester 5 of this 20 administrators were changed. The Major Council and the Minor Council were also created. But the most important thing was that he reduce the number of Alberghi to 28.

What were the Alberghi? Well, an Albergo is a predominatly Ligurian institution which consisted in the aggregation of some noble families related by blood or economic ties. The Albergo took the name of the main noble family and before Andrea Doria’s reform it was not a public institution. But with the “Riforma Nuova” (New Reform in English) all of the main Genoese Nobles were squeezed into 28 Alberghi which were recorded in the Golden Book. This reduction of main Noble families was an attempt to reconcile the “Nobles” and “Populares” factions within the city, but in the end that dichotomy was never eradicated. More noble families obtained their own albergo in the following years until 1576, when part of Andrea Doria’s reforms were removed and every noble family could have its own albergo (albeit with some requisites).

But let’s talk about the division in the Genoese Republic that I find most interesting. While the “Nobles” and “Populares” faction were abolished, the “Old Nobles” and the “New Nobles” factions rose from the ashes. The Old Nobles were mainly rich and old merchant families that rose to power in the last centuries, while the New Nobles were often rich bankers or administrators. The 28-alberghi division was not a balanced one: 23 alberghi belonged to the “Old Nobles” and only 5 to the “New Nobles”. A common ground between the two factions was the habit of alternating the office of Doge, but it was not always respected.

- Calvi
- Cattaneo
- Centurione
- Cicala
- Cybo
- De Marini
- Di Negro
- Doria
- Fieschi
- Gentile
- Grillo
- Grimaldi
- Imperiale
- Interiano
- Lercari
- Lomellini
- Negrone
- Pallavicino
- Pinelli
- Salvago
- Spinola
- Usodimare
- Vivaldi
- De Fornari
- De Franchi
- Giustiniani
- Promontori
- Sauli

Moreover, there are many aggregate families, which were minor houses without an albergo. But will they remain without one forever? After posting out the family names of the “aggregate houses” I will discuss why this strange introduction and how this information will influence the shaping of the new government.

- Adorno
- Ardizzoni
- Assereto
- Avvocati
- Ayrolo
- Baliani
- Bancheri
- Bassignani
- Battigatti
- Bavastrelli
- Bianchi
- Biscotti
- Boccanegra
- Boggio
- Bollo
- Borgari
- Bracelli
- Brignole
- Cabella
- Camilla
- Campi
- Cantelli
- Carretto
- Casella
- Castagna
- Cattaneo
- Cebà
- Chiavari
- Chiavica
- Clavarino
- Costa
- Costaguta
- Da Pelo
- Dallevigne
- De Castro
- De Ferrari
- De Mari
- De Scribanis
- De Sopranis
- De Turca
- Del Moro
- Delfino
- Della Porta
- Della Volta
- Di Canarie
- Di Prà
- Durazzo
- Dusio
- Falamonica
- Fasce
- Fattinanti
- Foglietta
- Fregoso
- Garaldi
- Garbarino
- Garetti
- Garibaldo
- Giovardi
- Giudice
- Goggi
- Granara
- Griffi
- Gualtieri
- Guarco
- Ilardi
- Illice
- Invrea
- Lagomarsino
- Lasagna
- Lazzari
- Leonardi
- Levanto
- Longo
- Malabita
- Mandillo
- Mangiavacca
- Marinetti
- Mercante
- Merello
- Moneglia
- Morando
- Narice
- Navone
- Nicòla
- Oddini
- Oderico
- Oliva
- Ottaggio
- Parodi
- Pasqua
- Passano
- Passio
- Pevere
- Piaggio
- Piccaluga
- Pietrasanta
- Pignali
- Pignatari
- Pignolo
- Pisano
- Platone
- Raffo
- Raggi
- Ratto
- Ravaschieri
- Rosso
- Rotolo
- Rouereta
- Rovereto-Malassena
- Sacco
- Sanguineti
- Scaniglia
- Scotti
- Senarega
- Serra
- Solari
- Stella
- Tartaro
- Terrile
- Toso
- Varside
- Veneroso
- Via
- Vignola
- Vineis
- Vinelli
- Vivaia
- Voltaggio
- Zerbino
- Zerbis
- Zoagli

Yes, I know, these names are perhaps too much. But this is the complete list, and preferring some families over others was not fair. It can be useful for replayability.

Albergo_Doria.PNG

Here is the example of the albergo Doria, named after the influential Doria house. The aggregate houses are here shown with their coat of arms surrounding the main one.

-A new government: the Aristocratic Republic of Genoa

As you can see, after Doria’s reform, any one of the two factions was always seeking power over the other. It seems that the alternation of the Doge’s office can be enough, but the real struggle for power consisted in appointing faction’s members to the various offices (form the 20 men serving the Doge directly, to the minor administrative and regulative offices). This duality makes me think that the “Merchant Republic” template is no longer valid for this government.

I propose to create a new government reform unique only to Genoa (or any merchant republic with ligurian culture) and accessible by Admin Tech 10 called “Aristocratic Republic” which gives:

- +5 merchant trade power
- +20% trade steering

Essentially, these bonuses remind of a Merchant Republic that is more focused on fewer trade nodes (merchants are less numerous but more effective). As with the Merchant Republic, the Aristocratic Republic will have no Estates. The core mechanic of this new government is similar to the Dutch Republic, since both have the balance between two factions in common, but with a remainder of Estate disasters when the influence of a faction goes too high. Let’s discuss it in detail.

Each election the player will be choosing between two candidates (both with random skills): one from the Old Nobles and one from the New Nobles. The elected candidate will move the Influence Slider 33% in favor of the faction he represents. The election cycle is two years, as mentioned before. Every candidate for Doge must have a family name of the faction he represents.

How can we know which families are aligned with the two factions? Apart from the Influence Slider, there will be a Golden Book icon. If the player clicks on that icon, it will display the two factions with the families that are aligned with them. At first there will be 28 families, but as the game progresses more noble houses can become worthy of being recorded in the Book (there the usefulness of the horde of names I showed before).

Is Influence determined only by elections? Of course not, there are many events I wrote for this government (scroll down), but there is another way. Remember when I said that disputes for public offices were common because it meant securing positions of power for the factions? When you pick an advisor, if the advisor has a family name which is aligned with a faction, that faction influence will grow by 5% per level of the advisor. It’s not mandatory for advisors to have an aligned family name. Promoting the advisor has no effect on faction influence.

Moreover, there can be passive growth of influence:

- Unlocking Trade or Maritime Idea Groups give +0.25 monthly Influence for the Old Nobles faction
- Unlocking Economic or Administrative Idea Groups give +0.25 monthly Influence for the New Nobles faction

In the Dutch Republic the bonuses from the faction in power are static, but to better reflect what would happen if a faction’s influence rose too much I envised this division:

1) 0% influence => starting position of the slider. It represents a situation of perfect balance of power (and the best situation for competitivity). While exactly at zero, an Aristocratic Republic gains these bonuses:

· +5% trade efficiency
· +5% tax modifier
· 10% administrative and development efficiency
· +1 possible advisor

2) 1% to 50% Influence for the Old Nobles => the Old Nobles are starting to get an edge over the New Nobles. While in this position, an Aristocratic Republic gains these bonuses:

· +10% trade efficiency
· +1 diplomatic reputation

3) 51% to 99% Influence for the Old Nobles => the Old Nobles are even more dominant in the republic’s affairs. This can lead to a precarious position for the republic’s interests, since the Old Nobles are likely to pursue their private agendas. While in this position, an Aristocratic Republic gains these bonuses:

· +10% trade efficiency
· +1 diplomatic reputation
· -15% manpower recovery speed
· +0.1 monthly autonomy
. +1 ruler diplomatic skill
. - 0.5 yearly republican tradition

4) 100% Influence for the Old Nobles => the Old Nobles have all of the major public offices and nearly all of the minor ones. They are unstoppable via democratic means, and they will push even more for their interesting at the expenses of the republic. While in this position, an Aristocratic Republic gains these bonuses:

· -20% manpower recovery speed
· +0.125 monthly autonomy
· Stability cost +33%
· Influence is locked to 100%
. +1 ruler diplomatic skill
. +1 dplomatic free policy
. - 2 yearly republican tradition

Similarly, for the New Nobles faction:

5) 1% to 50% Influence for the New Nobles => the New Nobles are starting to get an edge over the Old Nobles. While in this position, an Aristocratic Republic gains these bonuses:

· +10% tax modifier
· -0.5 yearly interests

6) 51% to 99% Influence for the New Nobles => the New Nobles are even more dominant in the republic’s affairs. This can lead to a precarious position for the republic’s interests, since the New Nobles are likely to pursue their private agendas. While in this position, an Aristocratic Republic gains these bonuses:

· +10% tax modifier
· -0.5 yearly interests
· -15% provincial trade power modifier
· -1 merchant
. +1 ruler administrative skill
. - 0.5 yearly republican tradition

7) 100% Influence for the New Nobles => the New Nobles have all of the major public offices and nearly all of the minor ones. They are unstoppable via democratic means, and they will push even more for their interesting at the expenses of the republic. While in this position, an Aristocratic Republic gains these bonuses:

· -20% provincial trade power modifier
· - 1 merchant
· Stability cost +33%
· Influence is locked to 100%
. +1 ruler administrative skill
. +1 administrative free policy
. - 2 yearly republican tradition

-What happens when a faction reaches the end of the Influence Slider?

When you have a faction with 100% influence, that number is locked and cannot change. Even if the following doges belong to the other faction, they will have no power over the bureaucracy and administration of the Republic. The only way to bring the Republic back from a faction’s domination is via a decision, as with the “Curtail the [Estate.name]” for the Estate Disasters. Since it represents the will of the people (and the minority faction) to end the monopoly of the dominant faction, this decision will become available 5 years after a faction reaches 100% influence and can be enacted if the Doge belongs to the minority faction and stability is at least 1. The effects of the decision are:

- Lose 1 stability
- All advisors are dismissed
- Gain country modifier “Ending faction dominance” (-25% spy network construction, -50% spy defense, -1 yearly corruption, +3 national unrest) for exactly 1 year

A year after, the country gets this event:

[faction.name] dominance has ceased!

“After a bloody year we rebuilt our great Republic, ruined by the greedy hands of the [faction.name]. We place our faith in [monarch.title] [monarch.name], who has led us in this victory of the people!”

· Option A: “Let him be [monarch.title] until the republic is stable!”

Influence Slider is placed at 0%
Lose country modifier “Ending faction dominance”
Monarch gains 1 of each monarch skills
Next election will be in 3 years
He cannot be re-elected (I want to state this clearly)

· Option B: “We do not need a dictator. New elections will be held!”

Influence Slider is placed at 0%
Lose country modifier “Ending faction dominance”
Elections are held in a month’s time

-Events for the Aristocratic Republic

As of now, I created 14 unique events for the Aristocratic Republic government form. These events all have MTTH of 2 years. If there are other trigger requirements, they will be written below.

“Wealthy family asks for noble status”

“In the last years, a new family has risen to prominence in [capital.city.name] through cunning diplomacy and wealth. Since they now possess all the requirements to be achieve noble status and to be recorded in the Golden Book, now they asks for their right to be acknowledged.”

· Option A: “Their noble status will be acknowledged”

[random.faction]:

o [random.family] becomes aligned with the faction

o Influence slider moves 5% in favor of this faction


· Option B: “Tell them that in due time they will be nobles”

Lose 25 diplomatic points


“Provincial lord demands noble status”

“One of the old feudal families who retain power over the various provinces and autonomies demands to be recognized as noble in the Golden Book and to participate in the political life of the Republic. However, they do not possess the legal requirements to be officially recorded in the Golden Book. What do we do?

· Option A: “Their noble status will be acknowledged nonetheless”

[random.faction]:

o [random.family] becomes aligned with the faction

o Influence slider moves 5% in favor of this faction


· Option B: “Let them stay where they are. There will be no acknowledgement!”

Lose 25 military points


“Aggregate family asks for noble status”

“In the last years, we saw a new light beginning to shine within another albergo. A tale of an aggregate family grow influential, perhaps more than the main family that they serve. The riches they accumulated is such a short time were invested in meeting the requirements to be recognized as proper nobles. They asks for their right to be acknowledged.”

· Option A: “How far they’ve come! We will acknowledge them noble status.”

[random.faction]:

o [random.family] becomes aligned with the faction

o Influence slider moves 5% in favor of this faction


· Option B: “The bureaucratic practices always take time…”

Lose 25 administrative points


“Loan policy repays the efforts”

If: New Nobles Influence more than 0% and do not have the “Successful loan policy” modifier

“In the last years the administration, guided by the New Nobles, has been undertaking a new loan policy towards productive activities in the territories of our Republic, as well as in foreign land. Our investments proved successful, and we can claim a part of that fortune“

If: New Nobles influence at most 50%

· Option A: “Maybe other investments are in order”

Gain 0.05 yearly income

Gain country modifier “Successful loan policy” (-0.25 yearly interests) for 5 years


If: New Nobles Influence more than 50%

· Option B: “At least we could claim some of the money”

Gain 0.01 yearly income


“Diplomatic policy successful”

If: Old Nobles Influence more than 0% and do not have the “Successful diplomatic policy” modifier

“The Old Nobles’ trade connections and diplomatic expertise served our Republic well. A policy of broadening our diplomatic contacts has been conducted and the new connection we’ve forged will surely be most useful to us in the next years or decades.”

If: Old Nobles influence at most 50%

· Option A: “Diplomacy is the key to success”

Gain 50 diplomatic points

Gain country modifier “Successful diplomatic policy” (+20% improve relations, +5% foreign trade power) for 5 years


If: Old Nobles Influence more than 50%

· Option B: “I hope that our efforts will be remembered”

Gain 20 diplomatic points

Random bordering country gets +15 relations with us


“Scandal for the [oldnobles.random.family] family!”

If: Old Nobles influence less than 100%

“Disturbing news have come to our ears. It appears that [random.name] [oldnobles.random.family] was a crafter of some sort before accepting his influential public office. The law forbids this kind of practices for a noble. The public opinion deems it a scandal; both the Old and the New Nobles agree that he should be punished. The Old Nobles want their reputation intact, while the New Nobles may have something else in mind…”

· Option A: “Fire him from his office and replace him with another candidate.”

New Nobles faction gain 10% influence


· Option B: “Clearly a hoax. He will not be punished.”

Lose 10 Republican Tradition


If: ruler has personality trait “Embezzler”

· Option C: “We can be persuaded not to punish him.”

Gain 0.05 yearly income

Lose 10 republican tradition



“Intestine feud in the New Nobility!”

If: New Nobles influence less than 100%

“While the Old Nobles were more united, the New Nobles were far more likely to have internal disagreements, which risked undermining the faction’s influence. In the last month, the situation has led to a proper feud between the [newnobles.random.family] and the [newnobles.random.family] families because of economic reasons and… private matters. What should our stance on this be?”

· Option A: “Take no action. The Old Noble will grow stronger.”

Old Nobles faction gain 15% influence


· Option B: “This feud has to be ceased now!”

Lose 1 Stability


If: ruler has personality trait “Righteous”

· Option C: “It’s only a temporary setback. These feuds will not stop our Institutions!”

Lose 50 admin points

Lose 5 Republican Tradition



“Successful administration”

If: any faction influence at most 50%

“Without any faction too much influential we managed to create a political scene which is nowadays most active and competitive. This allowed more talented men to earn their place in the administration and they brought new ways of thinking and to do their work more efficiently.“

If: any faction influence at most 25%

· Option A: “Balance of power at its best!”

Gain 20 admin, diplo and mil points


If: any faction Influence between 26% and 50%

· Option B: “Balance is key if the offices are well earned”

Gain 10 admin, diplo and mil points


If: Republican Tradition less than 65

· Option C: “Our citizens will have more faith in our Republic then.”

Gain 5 Republican Tradition


If: ruler has personality trait “Calm”

· Option D: “Time to further balance the power of the factions”

Current faction influence is halved


If: ruler has personality trait “Incorruptible” and corruption is more than 0

· Option E: “Time to eradicate corruption in our offices”

Lose 2 corruption


If: ruler has personality trait “Midas Touched”

· Option F: “Maybe tax collection will benefit”

Gain 0.05 yearly income


If: ruler has personality trait “Free Thinker” and country has no “Freethinking encouraged” modifier

· Option G: “Perhaps some great ideas will rise”

Gain country modifier “Freethinking encouraged” (-5% administrative and diplomatic technology cost) for 5 years


“Growing power of the [random.faction]”

“With the last election, the [random.faction] have managed to secure more offices than previous thought. It is a small act of shrewdness that can perhaps bring change to the Republic, or may become troublesome in the future.”

· Option A: “Ok.”

[random.faction] gain 5% influence


If: ruler has personality trait “Righteous”

· Option B: “Let us be assured of their disinterested collaboration.”

Lose 0.01 yearly income


If: ruler has personality trait “Naïve Enthusiast”

· Option B: “These men righteously earned their place! Give them more work to do.”

[random.faction] gain 10% influence



“Tension between merchants and bankers”

If: any faction influence no more than 50%

“In the last few days a big debate between bankers and merchants started. The merchants, represented by [random.name] [oldnobles.random.family], complain about the interests they have to pay to the bankers, deeming them too high. The bankers, under the leadership of [random.name] [newnobles.random.family], suggests that the merchants have grown complacent and are not competitive enough. We have to quell this debate before it gets out of hand.”

· Option A: “Support the bankers, they are right.”

New Nobles faction gain 10% influence


· Option B: “The merchants need some financial relief to make profit.”

Old Nobles faction gain 10% influence


If: ruler has personality trait “Industrious” and do not have the “Production investments” modifier

· Option C: “Bankers are right, but should also invest in the mainland.”

New Nobles faction gain 5% influence

Gain country modifier “Production investments” (+10% production efficiency) for 5 years


If: ruler has personality trait “Entrepreneur” and do not have the “Increased trade” modifier

· Option D: “Merchants are right, but they must profit more while interests are lowered.”

Old Nobles faction gain 5% influence

Gain country modifier “Increased trade” (+10% trade efficiency) for 5 years



“Old Nobles offer to provide us with an admiral”

If: at war

“The head of the [oldnobles.random.family] family offers to provide us with the services of his son, who he describes as a talented admiral. If we accept, though, we have to promise to secure him a public office in the next elections. Do we accept the deal?

· Option A: “We are in need of good leaders.”

Old Nobles gain 5% influence

Gain Admiral named [random.name] [oldnobles.random.family] with 50 tradition


· Option B: “We have already the officers we need”


“New Nobles offer to us an interest-free loan”

If: at war

“The head of the [newnobles.random.family] family offers to provide us with his services. Since he is a prominent banker, he can manage to loan us a sum of money with no interests, claiming that our victory is sure. In the contract there is also the promise to find him an office in the treasury. What shall we respond?”

· Option A: “We need the money.”

New Nobles gain 5% influence

Gain a new loan earmarked “New Nobles” with 0% interest (I was inspired by the Jain loan mechanic, even if I do not know for sure how it will work)


· Option B: “Our coffers are enough to wage this war.”



“Our institutions are corrupt”

If: any faction influence is more than 50%

“We have discovered a network of corrupt officers in our administration. Corruption increased since the dispute for public offices was no longer fair and balanced, and will grow even more if we do not stop it.“

· Option A: “Unfortunate.”

Gain 2 corruption



“Conspiracy against the Republic!”

If: any faction influence is more than 50%

“We have discovered a spy ring that goes from [random.rival] to the heart of our Republic! Some of our offices accepted to aid our enemies in exchange for privileges and wealth and when discovered they fled the country. They already passed many pieces of information to their contacts in [random.rival] and we do not know if our glorious Republic is at risk. What shall we do? ”

· Option A: “It is too late to stop them.”

[random.rival] adds 50 their spy network on us


· Option B: “We have to stop them by any means!”

Lose 100 diplomatic power

The issue with country loans and a suggestion on how to solve it

-Inspiration for this sub-thread

I, and many other players, think that the country loan mechanic is somewhat a sketch of what it should be. As of now:

· You can chose the sum to lend, the interest rate and the temporal length of the loan, and that’s perfect!
· The other country may choose at the end of the stipulated period not to repay the loan entirely and the lending country receives a Casus Belli.

The last point is very, very wrong. In history, rulers did not repay loans only when they were bankrupt. Quoting a document that I will link in the last part:

“The main reward, especially for large loans, generally came in the form of favors the government granted the merchant bank in return for its lending–commercial concessions, monopolies, and tax farms. The great Italian merchant banks of the thirteenth and fourteenth century gained access to the grain of Naples and Sicily and to the wool of England through their lending to the respective rulers. The Fuggers gained control of the mines of central Europe in the late fifteenth century through their lending to the Hapsburgs. And the Genoese, the successors of the Fuggers as bankers to the Hapsburgs, gained control of the trade in American silver in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries in much the same way. On a smaller scale, the English regulated companies (Staplers, Merchant Adventurers, etc.) obtained trade monopolies in exchange for loans to the king. And many a merchant banker gained an appointment as a tax farmer or a mintmaster in exchange for a suitable loan.”

“Most sovereign loans were also secured by the pledge of specific government revenue. In many cases, loans were explicitly or implicitly structured as advance purchases. Duke Sigmond of Tyrol borrowed from the Fuggers, starting in 1487, against his expected royalties from the Schwaz mines; in exchange for their advances, the Fuggers collected the royalties until the debt was paid in full. Loans to the King of Portugal from the Welsers and other German bankers in the early sixteenth century took the form of forward purchases of spices imported by the royal monopoly from the Indies. Tax farms operated on much the same principle: they were essentially forward purchases of tax revenue. For example, when Edward I of England established an export tariff on wool in 1275, he turned its collection over to the Ricciardi in exchange for an advance.”

“Sovereign lending by merchant bankers reached its height of sophistication in the ‘Genoese system’ of the late sixteenth century. The loans, known as asientos, effectively constituted an advance purchase of the 20% royalties–the quinto real–due the Spanish Crown on the silver mined in its possessions in the Americas. The lenders, or asientistas–were a consortium of merchant bankers–mainly Genoese, but also some Florentine, Flemish, German, and Spanish firms.”

By the way, the document is “Merchant banking in the medieval and early modern economy” by Meir Kohn (Feb. 1999).

-Small and big suggestions

As we can see, random defaulting was not an option. When someone (even on behalf of a country or government) lent money to a country, there were many ways to repay or even delay the repayment. The first changes I dare suggest are two, but the second, although more diverse and rewarding (depending on play style), is the hardest to implement:

- When is time to repay a loan, every country should have these options (via event maybe?):

° Repay the loan with interests in full: same as now. If the treasury is not enough, a normal debt will be taken.

° Repay the interests and extend the loan: only the interests are repaid and the loan is renewed with the same parameters

As you can see, there is no more “I don’t wanna pay the debt bro”: only when a country gets bankrupt every loan is cancelled, including country loans such as these. This way there is also more negotiations and space for diplomatic maneuvers, even so with the suggestions below.

- More negotiation action could be implemented, maybe related to ruler traits:

° Extend the loan and the interests: a new loan is issued with the same specifics as before but with the total sum be loan + interests. This way is an extreme way to delay a payment and so will cost dearly

° Pay what we can and nothing more! : only if your treasury has at least half of the starting loan. Deplete your treasury, which will be all transferred to the other country, and then cancel the loan. This action will have consequences on all the people that will lend your ruler money in the future. For example, I suggest a ruler modifier worth +2 yearly interests (this will stack if this option is used multiple times), -5 relations with all countries in the same region and all subjects and the usual CB to the lending country. (only if ruler is Malevolent maybe?)

° A diluted payment shall suffice: works similar to War Reparations. 10% of the country income is paid monthly to the lending country until the debt is extinguished. (This represent granting tax rates, trade tolls, mining rights or similar payment methods)

° Pay the interests over time: similar to the option above, but the loan is renewed and the old interests are repaid over time in a “War Reparation” style until they are fully paid. (only if ruler is Fierce Negotiator or Charismatic Negotiator maybe?)

° Grant them a share of our treasure fleets: available only if country has access to treasure fleets. Every time a treasure fleet arrives, 20-25% will be directed to the lending country until the debt is extinguished. There can’t be more of 4-5 of this “repayent policies” active at the same time, for obvious reasons. (This represent the Spanish asientos)

-Bankruptcy should have lasting effects

I will not say “Bankruptcy should be harsher or softer”, but only that should have a lasting effect. What effect, you may ask? Insolvency was still tied to rulers, and so I propose to add a ruler modifier worth +6 yearly interests which can be stacked with the +2 from the second option in the list above.

Final Words

What to say? It’s been a long thread, and I hope that at least some of my ideas will be gladly accepted by the public, if not by the developers themselves. I’m not advocating (at least here) for a Italian Expansion of an Immersion Pack, neither am I saying that these changes are necessary of that they are important. I hope that you’ll consider them so, and maybe I will make some more in the future ;)

Edit: I added the two picture to make the thread more pleasant to watch and read. I also added the suggestions made by @Paland0. I also decided to humbly tag @neondt
 
Last edited:

Palando

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The research you've put into this is great. Personally, I'm in favour of giving Venice and Genua (as well as reworking merchant republics) their own governmental mechanic. We've seen the introduction of so many governmental mechanics that it would be a shame if those two got nothing. Italy seems like the step child of Paradox.

Now to your suggestion: I wonder how this is connected to Republican Tradition? Republics use this as their resource, so what would you "buy" with RT in your suggestion?
What would keep me from alternating between those two factions? The centre position seems hardly reachable, as you'll never end up again at 0 (for a longer time). I would suggest changing it to -25 to +25.
 

Van Kasten

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The research you've put into this is great. Personally, I'm in favour of giving Venice and Genua (as well as reworking merchant republics) their own governmental mechanic. We've seen the introduction of so many governmental mechanics that it would be a shame if those two got nothing. Italy seems like the step child of Paradox.

Thanks a lot! I thought that Italy needed some love too! I plan to cover key areas of the Peninsula, albeit I am from Nothern Italy and am not yet very informed about the cultural history of the southern part. But, even if slowly, I can do my part.

Now to your suggestion: I wonder how this is connected to Republican Tradition? Republics use this as their resource, so what would you "buy" with RT in your suggestion?

I had plans with RT but I didn’t want to have too many bonuses or maluses. I thought of giving -0.5 RT if between 51 and 99 Influence of each faction and -2 RT if at 100 influence. I can gladly edit the post and add them if it doesn’t give the feeling of “too many things”.

What would keep me from alternating between those two factions? The centre position seems hardly reachable, as you'll never end up again at 0 (for a longer time). I would suggest changing it to -25 to +25.

If you want to go down a specific path, eg. trade monopoly on Genoa trade node or loan shark to financially forge connections and alliances, then alternating gives you unproductive years. If you think I’m wrong, please tell me.

The center position is hard to achieve because it represent perfect separation of powers and influences. I think it’s hard enough to achieve, but a skilled player can be at 0 every one of two periods of election.

I thought a lot about balancing the election gain for Influence, but I was remainded that the loss of the alternation between Doges of the two factions would have led to one overpowering the other and would have spelt trouble for the Republic. I based my +33 -33 decision on this information and the fact that with a third election of the same faction would have surely seen one faction ruling supreme and corruption run rampant. I am, of course, free to change my mind.
 

Palando

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Thanks a lot! I thought that Italy needed some love too! I plan to cover key areas of the Peninsula, albeit I am from Nothern Italy and am not yet very informed about the cultural history of the southern part. But, even if slowly, I can do my part.
I feel your pain. In my case it's the other way round, as I'm from the southern part of Germany and don't know that much about the nothern one.
I had plans with RT but I didn’t want to have too many bonuses or maluses. I thought of giving -0.5 RT if between 51 and 99 Influence of each faction and -2 RT if at 100 influence. I can gladly edit the post and add them if it doesn’t give the feeling of “too many things”.
That would be better, as otherwise you would always sit on 100 republican tradition which gives great bonuses on itself.
If you want to go down a specific path, eg. trade monopoly on Genoa trade node or loan shark to financially forge connections and alliances, then alternating gives you unproductive years. If you think I’m wrong, please tell me.

The center position is hard to achieve because it represent perfect separation of powers and influences. I think it’s hard enough to achieve, but a skilled player can be at 0 every one of two periods of election.
I would say that alternating is better, as you also get maluses for being above 50 influence on either side. I would maybe suggest that being above 50 on either side should give you +2 admin skill for New Nobles and +2 diplo skill for Old Nobles.
I thought a lot about balancing the election gain for Influence, but I was remainded that the loss of the alternation between Doges of the two factions would have led to one overpowering the other and would have spelt trouble for the Republic. I based my +33 -33 decision on this information and the fact that with a third election of the same faction would have surely seen one faction ruling supreme and corruption run rampant. I am, of course, free to change my mind.
I wonder how much power the doges actually had in the Genoese Republic? Two years seems like a very short time to have an impact.

BTW, is it a coincidence that albergo is also the Italian word for hotel?
 

Van Kasten

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I would say that alternating is better, as you also get maluses for being above 50 influence on either side. I would maybe suggest that being above 50 on either side should give you +2 admin skill for New Nobles and +2 diplo skill for Old Nobles.

Alternating was made to be better, even in the Genoese actual laws. But I understand that player should not be always restricted. I prefer this to be not so immediate though. I like the idea though, so tomorrow I’ll try to edit the thread based on yours and I hope other’s suggestions. I will go for +1 admin or diplo for the 51-99 influence range and +2 admin/diplo for the 100 influence. I could also consider using the +1 free admin/diplo policy: it’a nice modifier to underline the priorities of the two factions. It would be nice to have a second policy which reduces interests of loans btw.

I wonder how much power the doges actually had in the Genoese Republic? Two years seems like a very short time to have an impact.

The Doge’s election was based on a majority vote in the Major and Minor Councils. So, to successfully push a candidate for Doge, a faction would have majority and so more influence to wield between the various offices. That’s the catch in the Doge’s election.

BTW, is it a coincidence that albergo is also the Italian word for hotel?

I do not think it’s a coincidence, but I do not have any proof as of now.
 

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The Doge’s election was based on a majority vote in the Major and Minor Councils. So, to successfully push a candidate for Doge, a faction would have majority and so more influence to wield between the various offices. That’s the catch in the Doge’s election.
I might have formulated my question not clear enough. I wonder how strong the doge per se was. Was the person influential when it came to the policy of Genoa or was he more like a puppet of one of his faction?
 

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I might have formulated my question not clear enough. I wonder how strong the doge per se was. Was the person influential when it came to the policy of Genoa or was he more like a puppet of one of his faction?

Ah, I’m sorry. He wasn’t a puppet. After all, he was part of the faction too, so he pushed the same way as the other members of the faction. But there were exeptions, of course. The typical one is the one implemented as an event which symbolizes the inner struggles between the New Nobles, who had not the same interests sometimes. But these struggles were always resolved. The two factions had also different thoughts about allies in Europe, but the alliance with Spain in the 16th century was so beneficial that it kickstarted a economic boom in Genoa and basically no one stood against it.

The Doge had its powers, but there were many offices which could propose and/or vote for specific types of laws. As there were offices delegates to make the law enforced. So the factions pushed to make laws favorable to them and their types of businesses and also tried to avoid being struck down by the law’s hammer. The Doge was the most powerful of these offices, and also the representative of the Republic itself.
 

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Interesting.
 

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I really don't think balanced influence should give administrative efficiency. It would make Genoa WC country #1.
 

Van Kasten

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I really don't think balanced influence should give administrative efficiency. It would make Genoa WC country #1.

If Genoa stays an Aristocratic Republic it means it has way less Absolutism than the other nations, especially Monarchies. And if Genoa converts to Monarchy it will lose the Aristocratic Republic government form. Maybe WC would become easier in a sense, but not without considering the 20 provinces cap for Merchant Republics, which my idea stems from, and the fact that you can be at 0% influence not more that 50% of play time after tech 10 (when the reform becomes available), which is usually around 1530.

I thought it as a way to reward the efforts of keeping Faction Influence at 0% and because the name “Administrative Efficiency” stands very well in that contest. But I am, of course, free to change my mind, and to tweak the numbers a little.
 

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If Genoa stays an Aristocratic Republic it means it has way less Absolutism than the other nations, especially Monarchies. And if Genoa converts to Monarchy it will lose the Aristocratic Republic government form. Maybe WC would become easier in a sense, but not without considering the 20 provinces cap for Merchant Republics, which my idea stems from, and the fact that you can be at 0% influence not more that 50% of play time after tech 10 (when the reform becomes available), which is usually around 1530.

I thought it as a way to reward the efforts of keeping Faction Influence at 0% and because the name “Administrative Efficiency” stands very well in that contest. But I am, of course, free to change my mind, and to tweak the numbers a little.
Republics won't have an inherent absolutism penalty anymore.
 

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Oh, I did not know that. Did the developers announce that change for the next expansion?
It’s the only logical conclusion from the respective DD; only one of the starting reforms (merchant republic) has an absolutism penalty.
 

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It’s the only logical conclusion from the respective DD; only one of the starting reforms (merchant republic) has an absolutism penalty.

Oh, I must have took it for granted then. I’ll gladly edit the post to specify that this type of government should not bother with Absolutism!
 

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Hello Van Kasten Great Job on your historical research! I agree with you that republic government around the world need some more love, except the Dutch republic government of course. I hope the developers remove the negative effects on the republics have many holdings. Most activity in this game is conquest new land.
The Genoa government should be like Milan. The reason why Genoa is constant reform a new government because the Genoa has a border with the France and the Holy Roman Empire plus the Genoa lost their oversea lands to Venice.

Just like I previously said, the developers should look into the republic more. Why the republics did have the option to debetes like English Monarch because historically the republic has constantly on debate.( the Hamburg, Old Swiss republic, Venice)
Yes, during the game time frame most republics has powerful bankers in its city. Do you suggest new banking system in the game ?
Well I did the Doge was not puppet during the crusaders time he in fact operates in the autocracy ways in the Venice republic . However, during the game time frame, from what I learned, the Doge had to be a general or a navy general during war . The Doge was prestigious job for Venice. The Doge of Novgarod and Venice had to sell alway their foriegn asset. The Doge was not a king and he was president. He had to pass the laws with approval with the Great concil. One instead the Venice Doge tried to pradon his son but he could not. All I can say that the laws in many republics were strong and every citizens were believe in its constitution. Sorry for talking to much.
 

Van Kasten

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I hope the developers remove the negative effects on the republics have many holdings. Most activity in this game is conquest new land.

In case of merchant republic, or republic in which trade was the primary diver, I’ve figured out a trade-off between blobbing (no merchant republic did this) and avoiding to be little and powerless all the time. But I will refine the idea and I will put that in a new thread based around Venice (like this one with Genoa and loans).

Yes, during the game time frame most republics has powerful bankers in its city. Do you suggest new banking system in the game?

As much as I would like that, I think that is would be too much micromanaging, and it is surely a difficult thing to implement. What I was saying in the last part of this thread was more option for player-player and player-AI interactions regarding loans from countries to countries. Because the current system is in dire need of being refined even just a little.

Well I did the Doge was not puppet during the crusaders time he in fact operates in the autocracy ways in the Venice republic . However, during the game time frame, from what I learned, the Doge had to be a general or a navy general during war . The Doge was prestigious job for Venice. The Doge of Novgarod and Venice had to sell alway their foriegn asset. The Doge was not a king and he was president. He had to pass the laws with approval with the Great concil. One instead the Venice Doge tried to pradon his son but he could not. All I can say that the laws in many republics were strong and every citizens were believe in its constitution. Sorry for talking to much.

I said the Doge was not a puppet of a faction, not that he was a supreme ruler or a king. The Doge had limited powers, but he was nonetheless the personification of the republic itself.