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unmerged(169164)

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Sep 26, 2009
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Couldn't Britain recruit those soldiers even when they are indian? I thought being British only allows them to be Guards, not allowing them to recruit more.

Yes, of course. But dont bother people with facts.

As I understood the game, a country required to be administered. Colonization/conquest usually adds population on different dynamics than the colonizing population. Having a large first culture population was a reflection of the potential to colonize other nations as this nation had more NFs to manage their empire, helping to move the newly introduced population into the global dynamics.

Now, just like the rebels, this bit of gameplay do not seem to bite into a large set of players. So let time play its part.
 

Faulty

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What are you getting at? The other half of Germany did.

But Prussia doesn't control the other half of Germany until unification, whereupon they gain the other culture as accepted.
 

Rich Oliver

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You are taking Paradox view of history too serious. The north/south German split is there purely for aesthetical reasons. The two cultures have NO effect in the game, and there is nothing in history that suggests it should be otherwise. I'm German and I know a lot about German history... there are a million reasons why German unification went the way it did, but "cultural differences" really are a big pile of nonsense. If anything, religion should play a larger role.
Indeed! The cultural difference was between Protestants and Catholics. That was what ripped Germany apart in the 16th century and then supported the consolidation and maintenance of smaller state loyalties that persisted even after the First world War. Was not Prussia's expansionist drive tempered by the fear of ending up with too many Catholics? And Dixie was not a different culture either. It was a political identification with a localist political structure based on a different socio-ecomomic set up. Even in the United States the Protestant / Catholic divide was far more important than which particular European country immigrants had come from.
 

Arilou

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Does Prussia have huge numbers of South Germans?

It's kind of relevant for the forming of the North/South german confederations.
 

DesertSnow

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Hello and thanks for taking the time to post replies.

My opinion is that having a lot of cultures in EUROPE isn't the main problem. I am in favor of reducing the number of cultures in Africa, South America and Southeast Asia. Cultures in Europe and North America are (for the game's scope, not according to some "cultural superiority" classification) far more important.

Also think of this: If we reduced the number of cultures in the soon-to-be-colonized-and-exploited parts of the world, we would be able to dramatically reduce cultural assimilation in those areas without an increase in late game lag.
 

oberstbrooksy

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Does no body actually notice that it isnt India is turning British, but more India is moving to Britian?

Srsly check out Britians mainland half way through the game it is usally more than 60% Indian migrients......
 

Denizz

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Does no body actually notice that it isnt India is turning British, but more India is moving to Britian?

Srsly check out Britians mainland half way through the game it is usally more than 60% Indian migrients......

I am in 1920 now, and I see some Tamil's and Indians in mainland Britain, but Britains are spread all over the world in my game. I am playing as Oranje, and Bloemfontein is 20% British, 18% Boer and the rest are alot of Germans, Spanish and Ukranians. Before the immigration flood started, the Boer population was close to 50%. India and the British colonies in Africa are also 75%+ British by now. The British in my Oranje are a minority of 6% as of yet, but they keep growing and growing.

I do see alot of Anglo Canadians in Britain itself, while Canada itself is flooded with British. I notice the same with the Netherlands, the accepted pop Flemish moves to the Netherlands and constitute about 20% in some areas.
 

unmerged(75409)

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Hello and thanks for taking the time to post replies.

My opinion is that having a lot of cultures in EUROPE isn't the main problem. I am in favor of reducing the number of cultures in Africa, South America and Southeast Asia. Cultures in Europe and North America are (for the game's scope, not according to some "cultural superiority" classification) far more important.

Also think of this: If we reduced the number of cultures in the soon-to-be-colonized-and-exploited parts of the world, we would be able to dramatically reduce cultural assimilation in those areas without an increase in late game lag.

Most of the assimilation takes place in densely populated regions. Simplifying Africa (or the ridiculous amount of North African/Arabic cultures) would probably not solve the problem, since the pops from Europe and the rest of the world will inevitably spill over into Africa once the colonial powers take over, and you get the same kind of assimilation process.
 

unmerged(75409)

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Apr 30, 2007
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I am in 1920 now, and I see some Tamil's and Indians in mainland Britain, but Britains are spread all over the world in my game. I am playing as Oranje, and Bloemfontein is 20% British, 18% Boer and the rest are alot of Germans, Spanish and Ukranians. Before the immigration flood started, the Boer population was close to 50%. India and the British colonies in Africa are also 75%+ British by now. The British in my Oranje are a minority of 6% as of yet, but they keep growing and growing.

I do see alot of Anglo Canadians in Britain itself, while Canada itself is flooded with British. I notice the same with the Netherlands, the accepted pop Flemish moves to the Netherlands and constitute about 20% in some areas.

It's hard to track where they come from, but I am willing to bet money that most of those "Britons" come from India. Gujarat, Bengal etc all have GIGANTIC British pops in the late game - easily 2 million per province. The native Indian cultures are not long-ranged, but "British" is, so what happens is you have gigantic populations and huge unemployment and also a high rate of assimilation into the only culture that can migrate out. Resulting in a constant stream of emigrating "Britons" who are actually just recently assimilated Indians.
 

Carewolf2

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You are taking Paradox view of history too serious. The north/south German split is there purely for aesthetical reasons. The two cultures have NO effect in the game, and there is nothing in history that suggests it should be otherwise. I'm German and I know a lot about German history... there are a million reasons why German unification went the way it did, but "cultural differences" really are a big pile of nonsense. If anything, religion should play a larger role.

Ouch, way to show your lack of knowledge of your own country's history. South and North german was not even the same language, and they are very distinct cultures, there the north had more cultural exchange with the Netherlands and Denmark than with Bavaria and Austria.
 

unmerged(220281)

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While we're on the subject of removing things, is there any point to having religion in this game? I know it's an important factor for countries like Germany and the Netherlands in this time period, but the game doesn't reflect that at all. It gets four lines in the manual.
 

whitesoxfan

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I don't think religion slows the game down that much. Similarily, merging North and South German gets rid of one culture, which isn't really that big of a change, and it looks much nicer with them unmerged. I think African cultures, Indian cultures, Oceanic cultures and Native American cultures merging would improve the game speed
 

unmerged(39030)

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as far as assimilation goes especially the british empire. there should be different values of assimilation for european and noneuropean pops. could anyone familiar with this time period really see a zulu or a tamal call themselves british and be accepted. they would be called crazy. and like it or not racism played a big part of life in this time period. how otherwise could you justify colonialism without it. I could see a czech being accepted as a german way easier then a zulu. I am russian by this games mechanics all of finland should be russian as well as central asia. how many people see russians of this time period accepting turks as russians. ukrainians once again are another story any ukrainian that learned the language could pass. same with finland.
 

unmerged(5605)

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In my mind, paradox screwed up because they did the following.

1. They tried to make the cultural setup at the start of the GC as close to RL as possible.
2. They created a game which cannot allow cultural processes similar to OTL to happen. So you get really out there, implausible results like all Jews vanishing within 25 years.

You have to step back and ask - what is a culture for in Victoria? If it's for anything other than flavor, it's to limit the ability of a state to expand in a blobbish, ahistorical pattern, and to give some sense of limitation upon the expansion of the state. But with such high assimilation, this frankly doesn't matter anyway. Quite honestly, I think this could have been handled without using culture, and pops could be reduced to five types - Countrymen, Minorities (in provinces you own at the start, low assimilation), Natives (in colonized empty provinces, or annexed from uncivilized - low assimilation), Immigrants (high assimilation), and Conquered Peoples (In annexed territory from other civilized assimilate into Minorities with time). Of course, this would mean a totally different game engine, but it would be far easier on the CPU.

In general, however, I think culture elimination should fall under the following rubric.

1. Is the culture not a primary or accepted culture for any other state? If so, then the culture has no reason to exist.

2. I'd also argue if a culture is only accepted, and not primary anywhere else, it should be taken out. For example, Bolivia starts out with three Native American cultures as accepted. If they, and all other ones, were replaced with Native American Minor it could be considered an exploit. But since that means those populations will never assimilate, it actually hurts them more in the long run.

3. Divisions with highly related cultures which can be handled by events should be taken out. This includes North and South German, North and South Italian, and Yankee/Dixie/Texan. They do make some sense in the early game, but there is no real reason in the late game why a unified Germany or Italy shouldn't have both halves considered "primary." Since the game engine isn't capable of that, a better solution is to eliminate entirely.

4. I'd also argue that India needs to be pared way down. Quite honestly, differing cultures were not an important thing for the Princely States during this time period anyway, and there was no conception of ethnocentric nationalism in the subcontinent. More practically speaking, there is essentially zero chance for any of the states to break away from Britain, and the ability of the few remaining free ones in the northwest to form a unified nation is pretty damn small as well.
 

unmerged(5605)

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While we're on the subject of removing things, is there any point to having religion in this game? I know it's an important factor for countries like Germany and the Netherlands in this time period, but the game doesn't reflect that at all. It gets four lines in the manual.

Religion is implemented terribly. Mainly because people convert almost as fast, if not at the same rate, as they change cultures. Nothing resembling this was true IOTL - the only groups which should convert in large numbers are animists, and they are often the groups which do not convert as they have "no valid target." Jews should essentially never convert (do so at such a small rate it doesn't slow down population growth. There should be random drift in the Christian denominations, neither towards Catholicism or Protestantism unless you have a really oppressive government. If the game engine cannot handle this, then religion should be taken out entirely, and dealt with via events.
 

Razalhague

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The number of cultures isn't the main problem. It's a contributing factor, sure, but the game runs fine at the start and the number of cultures doesn't change during the game (AFAIK).

The real problem is the immigration boost democracies get, and the resulting very large numbers of very small POPs.

The solution to that is to make assimilation rate depend on the percentage of primary culture in the province, so that small POPs (immigrants) in a predominantly primary culture province will assimilate fast, while large POPs (conquered population) in a province without any primary culture will assimilate very slowly.
 

unmerged(75409)

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Apr 30, 2007
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I think it would work better if assimilation would cause POPs to "blob" and merge with their culturally nearest neighbours, rather than "blob" with the country's primary culture.

Example: Birmingham has the following population distribution:
Code:
250,000 British pops 
 10,000 Jewish pops
 7,000 North German pops
 5,000 South German pops
 900 Gujarati pops
 800 Bengali pops
 700 Panjabi
 600 Ashanti pops

Right now the assimilation goes like this:
Code:
Jewish --> British
North German --> British
South German --> British
Gujarati --> British
Bengali --> British
Panjabi --> British
Ashanti --> British
with a rate of assimilation that will lead to the small pops vanishing almost instantly, and the others (from my observation) at the same rate. The rate itself depending on policy settings. Pretty soon, the small Indian pops will be gone, even though there were quite a lot of them.

I understand that the game needs to have a way to get rid of small POPs. But why does it have to be such a hamfisted way?? Gujaratis, Bengalis, Ashanti, Jewish all becoming Britons??

It would make more sense if assimilation went to the closest and largest neighbor, with a rate depending on the cultural proximity, like this:
Code:
Jewish --(fast)--> British
North German --(fast)--> British
South German --(very fast)--> North German
Gujarati --(slow)--> British
Bengali --(very fast)--> Gujarati
Panjabi --(very fast)--> Gujarati
Ashanti --(slow)--> British

This could (assuming no pop growth) lead to the following population distribution:
Code:
252,060 British pops 
 8,000 Jewish pops
 12,000 North German pops
 2,350 Gujarati pops
 590 Ashanti pops
With some more time, the North Germans and Jewish pops would disappear by becoming British, but Gujarati and Ashanti would remain for a longer time, having only slow into the culturally distant British pops.

What's different from the current assimilation mechanic? Instead of making pop assimilation blob everyone into the primary culture, POPs merge into their closest neighbours. This reduces the overall number of POPs, just like the currently implemented solution, but avoids the silly "everyone becomes a Briton" phenomenon.

How is this better than the current solution? First of all, this nerfs countries with large colonial population and progressive governments (UK, USA, potentially also France) by avoiding extreme assimilation. RGO and factory productivity will remain lower, colonies will not become states, recruitment is limited, and so on. Secondly, while it keeps assimilation between close cultures, it retains the flavor of historical plausibility by slowing assimilation between very different cultures. This will make large empires melting pots where you do get "ethnic blobbing" but not into one large culture, rather into a handful of large ethnicities with only a few of them assimilating again into the primary culture of your state.

Isn't this insanely complicated? No. All you need to provide as information to the game is a list that says how close each culture is to every other culture in the game.
Here's how it goes: The number of cultures in the game is, what, 120 or so? So theoretically you would need 120 x 120 = 14400 numbers. But before you say "WTF", realize that these 120 cultures can reasonably be grouped into a much smaller number of clusters: First of all you can put them into at most 30 cultural group such as "Germanic", "American", "Iberian", "Yugoslavian", "Arabic" and so on (you can recycle some of the cultural union tags for this!). These in turn are again classified into maybe seven racial (phenotypical) metagroups: "European (white)", "East Asian", "South Asian", "African", "Amerindian", "Mestizo", "Middle Eastern" without doing anyone serious injustice.
Okay it involves some gross generalizations, f.ex. Patagonians / Inuit / Yakutians being one metagroup, Germans / Italians / Americans / Russians being another, Chinese / Japanese / Korean another and then some murky overlap groups such as African American / Caribbean / Bantu / African minor / ... ("African phenotype metagroup") and Mexican / Venezuelan / Andean / Bolivian minor / ... ("Mestizo phenotype metagroup"). But I think this is okay for a world strategy game, you have to make simplifications somewhere.
So actually you do not specify 14,400 cultural proximity parameters. Rather, you specify assimilation rates between the seven or so metagroups (very slow), An overall assimilation rate within the metagroups and one assimilation rate within one of the cultural unions/groups that we already have in the game. That's only three different rates. You do have to do the work of grouping them, which is a little bit of effort, but that's it. You could "customize" the rates between metagroups if you wish but you don't have to.
The most charming aspect is that the list of cultural proximities would be something loaded at game start. Each pop knows which is the closest pop before a save game is loaded. It is not computed during the game, so it will *NOT* burden the game with laborious computation! All you add is that the assimilation logic needs to check what the largest POP is within a cluster, and have all other pops in the cluster pick this one as their assimilation target.

But the cultural unions were implemented with something totally different in mind! I don't care. I would hijack the concept for this mechanism too. And add a whole more bunch of cultural unions, as well as group many of the existing minor cultures into larger, more artificial groups. Honesty, who the hell cares if the game gets the wrong first and last names for Ashanti and Beninese generals??? They don't need their own cultural groups. This is a game intended to be played as a European Great Power of the 19th century. I don't care about nitpicky cultural differences among people who are totally different from me.

This - is - RACISM!!! :p It recycles the "race" concept but as a tool for stopping nonsensical game mechanisms, not as a tool for slurring or denigrating people. Assimilation can be incredibly fast when you can "pass" as someone else, but it's not reasonable that a society lets you assimilate against racial (phenotypical) stereotypes. Gujaratis in Manchester will not become accepted Britons, **BUT** they can become "British Indian" if this is (artificially) introduced into the game. (Think of "African American", which becomes an accepted culture in the USA after the reconstruction decision.)
 

unmerged(75409)

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Apr 30, 2007
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The number of cultures isn't the main problem. It's a contributing factor, sure, but the game runs fine at the start and the number of cultures doesn't change during the game (AFAIK).

The real problem is the immigration boost democracies get, and the resulting very large numbers of very small POPs.

The solution to that is to make assimilation rate depend on the percentage of primary culture in the province, so that small POPs (immigrants) in a predominantly primary culture province will assimilate fast, while large POPs (conquered population) in a province without any primary culture will assimilate very slowly.

But pops migrate within the colonies, too, if there is unemployment. This gives you again lots of mini Gujarati and Bengali pops that instantly become British, leading (again) to Calcutta being 60% British by 1899.

A solution would be to give each culture "home" provinces where it does not assimilate regardless of pop size, i.e. add a list of provinces to the culture definitions file. Very laborious but it would for example prevent all Indian pops from becoming British unless they leave India. Likewise, if Germany conquers Alsace-Lorraine, French people within Alsace-Lorraine (tagged as a French home province) would not become North German unless they migrate to Berlin or the Rhineland (not tagged as French home provinces).

The downside to this is that it links map modding with culture modding which may or may not be a nice thing to have.
 

FernandoGruber

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The number of cultures isn't the main problem. It's a contributing factor, sure, but the game runs fine at the start and the number of cultures doesn't change during the game (AFAIK).

The real problem is the immigration boost democracies get, and the resulting very large numbers of very small POPs.

The solution to that is to make assimilation rate depend on the percentage of primary culture in the province, so that small POPs (immigrants) in a predominantly primary culture province will assimilate fast, while large POPs (conquered population) in a province without any primary culture will assimilate very slowly.

Best Idea so far! Its more realistic, solves the british india problem and (hopefully) the lag late in the game.
+1
 

Ephafn

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The number of cultures isn't the main problem. It's a contributing factor, sure, but the game runs fine at the start and the number of cultures doesn't change during the game (AFAIK).

The real problem is the immigration boost democracies get, and the resulting very large numbers of very small POPs.

The solution to that is to make assimilation rate depend on the percentage of primary culture in the province, so that small POPs (immigrants) in a predominantly primary culture province will assimilate fast, while large POPs (conquered population) in a province without any primary culture will assimilate very slowly.

My personnal preference would be to only allow assimilation toward the largest population culture in a province (although primary culture POPs shouldn't be able to assimilate). So non-British immigrants in India should assimilate to the local majority cultures, thus requiring massive British immigration before the assimilation toward British starts.
 
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