The Future of Planetfall Is In Movement And Ops

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Calm

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As the release of Star Kings approaches, I would hope Triumph considers Planetfall a success. I was blown away when I discovered AoW3 in 2017 (1200 hours), and have had a lot of fun with Planetfall (600 hours). They continue to impress me with their creativity, ambition, and design sense. Having robust, interlocking systems with as much potential for wackiness as Planetfall has is no mean feat.

All that said, there's one area where I think there's room for a lot of improvement: movement and ops.


Ancient Battlefields Were Concentrated, Modern Battlefields Are Distributed
Think about films you've seen with "massive battles": LotR, Last Samurai, Troy, Gladiator.

They're all about ancient, pre-gun warfare, (with the exception of Last Samurai, which is specifically about the transition). And all battles take place in a relatively centralized location.

Now think about "movies set in WWII." Yes, you've got your Saving Private Ryans, but a surprising number of WWII movies don't go near a battlefield at all:
- spy movies
- submarine movies
- even "engineering" movies, like Imitation Game (cryptography) or Fat Man and Little Boy (Manhattan Project)
- even just "non-combat" movies that happen to be set in the UK during the Blitz (Foyle's War, a *detective* show)

There's a joke in software engineering that "A distributed system is one where your program can fail because some computer you've never heard of crashed." Modern war is war where you can be winning in one battle, but then lose because of something that happened on some other battlefield, far away (or vice versa).

In general: the ancient way is more glorious at the level of the rank-and-file foot soldier, but less strategically interesting. The modern way has little in the way of glory for humans-as-combatants (and is in fact quite brutal), but is more strategically interesting. It's worth noting that Starcraft's successful sequel was Starcraft 2, another strategy game, while Warcraft's successful sequel was WoW, which is a role-playing game.

Most of the stuff here is intended to move Planetfall more towards the modern style, with a greater emphasis on movement, firepower, engineering, and covert ops.



The Flatness of the Planetfall Map

It's strange to write this about a game with as many exploration sites, anomalies, landmarks, imperial defenses, etc., as Planetfall, but it's true---in practice, the map in Planetfall is relatively featureless. This is true of the risk landscape---that is, most tiles are about the same in terms of combat conditions---and of the reward landscape---the meaning of the battle, what makes the tile worth fighting over in the first place.

Risk: Fight Here, Fight There, Whatever
How much does location affect battles? While Triumph has made stabs in this direction, the answer is usually "not much." In ~600 hours of playtime, I have never been dissuaded from an attack because of a strategic op---the most important factor was always numbers of troops on each side. I'm not saying it'll never happen, but...

Consider this:
- Tactical ops are available to everyone, everywhere, all the time, at full power, regardless of distance
- Strategic Ops and Imperial defenses generally have buff/debuff effects, which means they can only serve a supporting role, aiding a defending army, rather than replacing it. A force multiplier, but with a very low multiple---90% of the time the winner is the one with the larger army.

Reward: It's All Just Mines and Wheatfields
When you capture a sector, how does it affect the larger war? Again, most of the time: not much. Yes, sectors are valuable economic assets---which means their time to pay off is measured in the tens of turns. There is no tactical payoff. Compare to the US Rangers' assault on the guns at Pointe du Hoc on D-Day to support the main beach landings only a few hours later.

The Cure: Let Ops Affect Units More, Let Units Affect Ops More

What if Ops Were More...

We want texture on the map; for terrain to mean more than it currently does.

The core "problem" with ops---both strategic and tactical---is that they are both:
* too available
* too weak


What if they were stronger, but more limited?

We can easily come up with ways to make them more limited:
- requirements like "must own sector," (or adjacent sector)
- "must have a specific unit in the sector" (Abyssal Tear should probably require a Malictor in the sector, right? right?)
- increase energy or Operations Points
- a "wind-up" effect, where they don't take effect for a number of turns
- *locate* the source of the op on the map somewhere (perhaps a created structure), such that if the enemy captures it, the op disappears

We can also come up with ways to make them stronger:

- higher damage/stronger effect
- lower cost/operations points
- permanent artifacts (tie effect to a structure the op creates)



Movement, Covert Assault, Op Negation, "Really Strong" ops

If you just dropped powerful ops like the ones described above in the game and did nothing else, it would make the game way too ops-centric, and we'd never see an actual battle again.

To keep actual units relevant in an environment with powerful ops, the most powerful tools are unit movement, and anti-op mechanics

Specifically:

1. Movement --- can range from just sneaking around a machine gun's field of fire, to amphibious landings, all the way to HALO parachute drops
2. Covert Assault --- sneaking *through* a field of fire---perhaps at night, perhaps camouflaged or in cover, or even disguised as a civilian
3. Op Negation --- some way to "protect" a battlefield from another. Includes really big shields, jamming radio frequencies so artillery/air support can't be called in, smoke grenades, etc.
4. Artillery/"Really Strong" Ops --- fighting fire with moar fire: calling in an air strike on a machine gun bunker, Hiroshima, etc.


I think this is a rich, unexplored territory for Planetfall.

Like, wouldn't it be cool if:
- there were more options for strategic movement in the game? Everything from limited-range blinks on the strategic map, to persistent portals, and everything in between?
- "surprise" were more of a thing when starting combat? A movement/ops-only "surprise turn," only granted if every stack in the attacking army was camouflaged in the tile they were attacking from?
- there were some way to "jam transmissions," preventing the enemy from using tactical ops?
- you could reliably, but expensively, negate enemy ops, rather than the dice roll that is the current counter-op system? (perhaps from orbit...)




Race/ST Differentiation
What I find particularly exciting about all this is the opportunity for race/ST/NPC differentiation. Not everyone has to have hard-hitting bombardment, not everyone has to have great strategic movement, etc.

For instance, Vanguard might have strong bombardment ops, and OK "orbital insertion" ops. Syndicate would instead opt for stationary hallucination projectors, punishing surprise rounds, and covert movement (which, with the map being more textured, would actually be useful). Kir'Ko might skip bombardment altogether, and focus on mass movement + op negation (a Kir'Ko tunnel erupts near the enemy HQ, the whole area covered by blinding miasma).



Conclusion: It's All About Strategy

There's a lot more that could be said---reviving orbital interaction from its rejected prototype, meta-ops, making ops more vulnerable to units (and vice-versa).

But the gist is: Planetfall is a fantastic battle simulator. However, the strategic map is mechanically more similar to the AoW3 wizard-in-a-tower setup than sci-fi. This hurts the game; a modern fire-and/or-move strategic map would be much more interesting than the doom-stack-vs-doom-stack of fantasy worlds.
 
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Ericridge

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An immediate payoff would be the one where you raze a sector/city for its resource reward. Cosmite I got from burning down cities helped me mod my troops during a early phase when some AI dow'd on me but didn'thave troops in position to defend its possessions. I didn't have the troop strength to take and hold the three cities that was next to me but i did have the strength to take and burn them down.

As for operations, well, there's only so much you can do with just fourteen operation points.

Its fine for small maps but its meh for anything bigger. But at same time its also a balancing factor, a bigger empire just simply can't drown a smaller empire in operations. Forces bigger to conserve the 14 it has for super important battles.

Personally Planetfall is missing the underground. I want to drive my tanks and fliers underground :p
 

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No. That would be a completely different game and I would not purchase it.

Edit. The more mechanics a game has, the harder it is to create a decent AI. Planetfall's AI does not use orbital relays, does not capture gold landmarks, does not capture exploration sites, does not explore largest anonalies, does not optimize sectors, does not optimize defence of colony etc. Adding all suggested in OP mechanics would not change much except make the game even easier for human player than it already is.
 
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BloodyBattleBrain

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No. That would be a completely different game and I would not purchase it.


It would be a different game entirely, true, but I would purchase it.

However, the strategic map is mechanically more similar to the AoW3 wizard-in-a-tower setup than sci-fi.


This is by design. Also, nit-pick, AoW3 leaders weren't in towers :p
 

Luke_Falcon

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While all these suggestions for the strategic layer sound fun, I also think they miss the point of AoW games, which are the tactical battles. Being able to win a game without having to engage in combat is good for a game like CIv or EU and their derivatives, but Planetfall wants you to focus on army composition and unit abilities with strategic and tactical ops being just support actions, that can help you tip the scales of battles slightly. AI issues aside, having too much focus on economy and subterfuge would detract attention from tactical battles that IMHO are the core gameplay.

There's room for improvement for the strategic layer, obviously, but that's more likely to happen in the sequel/spinoff we will hopefully get in the near future :)

This hurts the game; a modern fire-and/or-move strategic map would be much more interesting than the doom-stack-vs-doom-stack of fantasy worlds.
Planetfall's style of warfare borrows heavily from the WH 40K universe, which is also Sci-Fi(-ish), in which doom-stacks are the smallest unit formations ;)
 
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Calm

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While all these suggestions for the strategic layer sound fun, I also think they miss the point of AoW games, which are the tactical battles. Being able to win a game without having to engage in combat is good for a game like CIv or EU and their derivatives, but Planetfall wants you to focus on army composition and unit abilities with strategic and tactical ops being just support actions, that can help you tip the scales of battles slightly. AI issues aside, having too much focus on economy and subterfuge would detract attention from tactical battles that IMHO are the core gameplay.

There wasn't room in the OP to talk about this without putting everyone to sleep, but this did occur to me. The problem is that the game isn't focused on tactical battles right now. The biggest deciding factor in most battles is simple numbers/power. So the question isn't "whether to have an important strategic layer." We have one, right now. The only question is whether we will have a good one.

This becomes most apparent when at war with multiple empires on different sides of yours. You can't send your armies too far in one direction for fear of being defenseless against the other. So the optimal thing to do is sit at home and use diplomacy/covert ops to resolve the situation somehow. So you never get those tactical battles after all!

However, imagine you could build a structure that killed a unit (or 6) in the same sector every turn, *and* could garrison it, *and* it acted like a landmark---can't bombard units in it from the outside, and can only be attacked by six units at a time. Now you have a fight where:

- the outcome matters beyond simply the attrition of that fight
- tactical skill is front/center stage (6-on-6 fair fight)

Anyway, didn't mean to jump down your throat, just was glad someone brought it up.
 
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BloodyBattleBrain

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war with multiple empires on different sides of yours. You can't send your armies too far in one direction for fear of being defenseless against the other. So the optimal thing to do is sit at home and use diplomacy/covert ops to resolve the situation somehow. So you never get those tactical battles after all!


In my most recent game I had an enemy to my left, top and right.

Large map, lots of moving around
And lots of tactical battles.:)
 
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Sandman25DCSSS

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It depends on your intents I guess. I don't care about diplomacy or covert ops, it is impossible to win my games without killing everyone else which requires tactical battles. If you want the same, just divide N players in N teams during setup and disable all victory conditions.

PS. If it's not enough, play vs a team of all other AI players, you will see that being surrounded does not result in low amount of tactical battles.
 

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a structure that killed a unit (or 6) in the same sector every turn, *and* could garrison it, *and* it acted like a landmark---can't bombard units in it from the outside, and can only be attacked by six units at a time

That actually sounds fun and doable - like a bunker system you have to brute force and cant just overrun with a lot of units at once.

This becomes most apparent when at war with multiple empires on different sides of yours. You can't send your armies too far in one direction for fear of being defenseless against the other. So the optimal thing to do is sit at home and use diplomacy/covert ops to resolve the situation somehow. So you never get those tactical battles after all!

I have to disagree that empowering the Ops would resolve this issue. That would only make sitting in a colony and spamming bombardments the preferable strategy, while now you eventually have to enter combat, and the strategy becomes to enter combat on your terms.
I'd sooner be for more strategic operations influencing the fight. Maybe a skills that allow you to move first despite being the attacker, or night combat and every unit has their range cut or even to have invisible units on the battlefield only targetable by units with the detector trait; some guerilla tactics to help out if your the underdog and can't do a head-on fight. Or something like the army stances from the newer Total War games.

Speaking of Total War - I think these games are what AoW games should be compared to. I think the comparison to 4X strategy games and the fact that Planetfall is published by Paradox creates an expectation for a deep strategic 4X game, while in reality, it's a war game with some 4X elements added for flavor.
 

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I think it is a bad idea to increase advantage of attacker. After all it is attacker who decides if the battle happens or not. That's why we have garrisons, defensive strategic operations (including cutting weapon range!) applied to own territory, increased movement in own territory, orbital relays in own territory.
 
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Luke_Falcon

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I think it is a bad idea to increase advantage of attacker. After all it is attacker who decides if the battle happens or not. That's why we have garrisons, defensive strategic operations (including cutting weapon range!) applied to own territory, increased movement in own territory, orbital relays in own territory.
That's a fair point, but all of these are home turf advantages and static defenses. What I had in mind was something to help out a lone stack operating behind enemy lines: harassing colonies, attacking reinforcements. Mind that I'm not a balance expert, but the attacker should have more options to discourage turtling, and making offense the best defense.
 

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That's a fair point, but all of these are home turf advantages and static defenses. What I had in mind was something to help out a lone stack operating behind enemy lines: harassing colonies, attacking reinforcements. Mind that I'm not a balance expert, but the attacker should have more options to discourage turtling, and making offense the best defense.
It is somewhat balanced now: defender has advantage overall, but attacker creates local advantage and attacks. If attacker has advantage everywhere, players will just exchange colonies like often happened in Heroes of Might and Magic where player A captured capital of player B and player B captured capital of player A. Trying to defend when attacker always has advantage would result in loss of whole army and defeat. If you are familiar with previous AoW or Disciples, then you know how high advantage attacker can have: you cast multiple spells at equal strength enemy stack and suddenly the enemy is doomed, some units could even be killed from strategic map.
 

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I appreciate your work in putting out this post, but isn't it actually wishful thinking to propose big mechanic overhauls for a game that is probably nearing its production life cycle? Kinda a waste of time if you ask me...
 
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I appreciate your work in putting out this post, but isn't it actually wishful thinking to propose big mechanic overhauls for a game that is probably nearing its production life cycle? Kinda a waste of time if you ask me...

I'd challenge the idea that this would be a "big mechanic overhaul" --- or at least I'd challenge some of the implication. Changes to some mechanics, sure. But the work would be quite tame, relative to the strategic depth added. Much of what I described would be possible purely as a scriptless mod. What would be more work would be the AI, but that's not insurmountable either.

As for the "end of Planetfall," well, maybe, maybe not, we'll see.
 
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No. That would be a completely different game and I would not purchase it.

Edit. The more mechanics a game has, the harder it is to create a decent AI. Planetfall's AI does not use orbital relays, does not capture gold landmarks, does not capture exploration sites, does not explore largest anonalies, does not optimize sectors, does not optimize defence of colony etc. Adding all suggested in OP mechanics would not change much except make the game even easier for human player than it already is.

They do in fact capture gold landmarks but, they never do it unless they feel like it would be safe for them to do so. Like, they aren't under any sort of pressure which makes them willing to take some losses in trying to capture the gold landmarks. Usually lategame when it happens.

Unless!

You take a gold landmark right on the AI's border and they'll get all offended and then dogpile you with as many units as possible, its usually very good bait to trigger the AI into dowing onto you so you can kill them. Only that sending great number of units usually works to the detriment of the AI. Cuz Golden landmarks usually have excellent Local Operations. Sometimes its possible to kill a great number of enemy units before the militia succumbs to superior numbers. And that was the promethean's landmark with pretty bad OP. Its ultra telegraphed and easily dodgeable.

Only way the AI won't have lost such great numbers would be to have long ranged skirmishers just tapping splash damage onto my units while his entire army gets into formation and moved as one forcing me to fight his entire army at same time instead of piecemeal.

20201025215748_1.jpg


There wasn't room in the OP to talk about this without putting everyone to sleep, but this did occur to me. The problem is that the game isn't focused on tactical battles right now. The biggest deciding factor in most battles is simple numbers/power. So the question isn't "whether to have an important strategic layer." We have one, right now. The only question is whether we will have a good one.

This becomes most apparent when at war with multiple empires on different sides of yours. You can't send your armies too far in one direction for fear of being defenseless against the other. So the optimal thing to do is sit at home and use diplomacy/covert ops to resolve the situation somehow. So you never get those tactical battles after all!

However, imagine you could build a structure that killed a unit (or 6) in the same sector every turn, *and* could garrison it, *and* it acted like a landmark---can't bombard units in it from the outside, and can only be attacked by six units at a time. Now you have a fight where:

- the outcome matters beyond simply the attrition of that fight
- tactical skill is front/center stage (6-on-6 fair fight)

Anyway, didn't mean to jump down your throat, just was glad someone brought it up.

Difficulty level of that sort of landmark would be higher than gold landmark and the AI would just ignore and capture the city instead XD The AI already loses a ton of units on militia.

And my answer to multiple war fronts is to just simply build more units + cities and energy sectors to support the units. My current game had me on four fronts. Marauders to the north, crazed voids to the west and south + betrayers/traitors to the east/south. What happened was that I reinforced the void/betrayers/traitors/crazed front first then new stacks that got built went up north and took a marauder base out before leaving to reinforce a war front. Then the core troops would gradually hold onto the north while new stacks took out another base before leaving for other front.


In my most recent game I had an enemy to my left, top and right.

Large map, lots of moving around
And lots of tactical battles.:)

What BBB said here is bloody correct. Bigger maps = more battles so stop hiding in tiny maps you all :p
 

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First, OBJECTION! The successful sequel to Warcraft 3 was Starcraft 2. World of Warcraft was set in the same world, continues the story, and is certainly successful, but is aimed towards a different player base (even if there is some overlap).

More in-line with the topic:

I would be inclined to say that the advantage of surprise by sneaking up on the enemy is that generally such an attack is able to attack a target that is not sufficiently defended, because the defender didn't know the attack was coming until it arrived. That's probably sufficient. Problem is, of course, that this is hard to pull off against the AI since the AI usually knows where your stacks are anyway.
 
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Sandman25DCSSS

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I'd challenge the idea that this would be a "big mechanic overhaul" --- or at least I'd challenge some of the implication. Changes to some mechanics, sure. But the work would be quite tame, relative to the strategic depth added. Much of what I described would be possible purely as a scriptless mod. What would be more work would be the AI, but that's not insurmountable either.

As for the "end of Planetfall," well, maybe, maybe not, we'll see.
Now I am pretty sure you are not software developer and your estimate is wrong. Amount of work has nothing to do with "strategic depth added". Also where do you see "strategic depth"? If you want to sneakily attack colonies with weak forces to raze the colonies, just play AoW3, there is a good reason why devs removed this "depth" in planetfall.
 

Badok

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It's a bit off topic from how the discussion flowed, but I must point out that I really like the player-owned dungeon idea, forcing the attacker to field only one stack against the defences. This is already a thing for teleport battles, which I adore - you can stop an army with a moderately powered stack + some defensive ops - and I'd love to see more of this mechanic.
 
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RMan89

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While all these suggestions for the strategic layer sound fun, I also think they miss the point of AoW games, which are the tactical battles. Being able to win a game without having to engage in combat is good for a game like CIv or EU and their derivatives, but Planetfall wants you to focus on army composition and unit abilities with strategic and tactical ops being just support actions, that can help you tip the scales of battles slightly. AI issues aside, having too much focus on economy and subterfuge would detract attention from tactical battles that IMHO are the core gameplay.
While I find this somewhat true, the strategical layer also matters in Planetfall. Diplomacy, while still quite simple IMO, allows for some nice shenanigans. Lately in my "Let's Play" I had a situation where I wanted to attack one player, but he was in a defensive pact with another. I didn't want to attack in such conditions and risk engaging two enemies at once. My plan was to try and make the other player an ally, and try to force him to break the pact. It was risky, because he could instead break the alliance with me sure, but was much better that attacking at once. Although he broke the pact on his own before forming I formed an alliance with him, but this was still a good opportunity to strike. Strategical positioning also matters. I wouldn't want a war when I'm in the middle of two allied players, and when I'm in an alliance with players who're on the other side of my enemy's territory it might make thing much easier, because the one in the middle is forced to either focus on one side, or spit his forces in two. Also it's much easier to enter war with someone when you're called to war. I had situations where I deliberately entered a pact, or alliance just to enter war with a player who I wanted to conquer, without reputation loss.
 
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Sandman25DCSSS

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While I find this somewhat true, the strategical layer also matters in Planetfall. Diplomacy, while still quite simple IMO, allows for some nice shenanigans. Lately in my "Let's Play" I had a situation where I wanted to attack one player, but he was in a defensive pact with another. I didn't want to attack in such conditions and risk engaging two enemies at once. My plan was to try and make the other player an ally, and try to force him to break the pact. It was risky, because he could instead break the alliance with me sure, but was much better that attacking at once. Although he broke the pact on his own before forming I formed an alliance with him, but this was still a good opportunity to strike. Strategical positioning also matters. I wouldn't want a war when I'm in the middle of two allied players, and when I'm in an alliance with players who're on the other side of my enemy's territory it might make thing much easier, because the one in the middle is forced to either focus on one side, or spit his forces in two. Also it's much easier to enter war with someone when you're called to war. I had situations where I deliberately entered a pact, or alliance just to enter war with a player who I wanted to conquer, without reputation loss.
I see why you probably like the ideas from OP. Let me elaborate why I don't like them. AI is not that great in strategy games, I played a "1 vs 11" extreme AIs game where I was attacked from 3 sides before turn 20. I killed 1 AI, almost killed another and then realized I am not enjoying it because I started suffering from broken covert operations mechanic. After deciding to stop the game I used cheat code to uncover the map and noticed that far-away AIs don't expand as fast as I expected (no enemies for them in range, I remind you), they still had less colonies than I had.
When I play normal games where diplomacy is enabled, I make as many alliances as I want, nobody is attacking me and I simply decide whom I will attack next. I mean diplomacy already makes the game too easy. Now if devs implement ideas from OP, AI will be even easier to kill, it simply will not know how to deal with sneaky attacks, extra strategic operations etc. It can be probably fun in MP, but it will make SP worse.
 
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