The future of EU4 and Paradox games, a schism?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Kyoumen

General
34 Badges
Dec 6, 2009
2.219
4.577
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Victoria 2 A House Divided Beta
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Deus Vult
  • Sengoku
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
This game is for SP. Period.

If the devs fail seeing that they'll face pretty harsh consequences.

And while I'm complaining, you are wrong on literally every point.

1) The game is for both SP and MP and apparently a large amount of the fanbase plays MP.

2) The devs develop the game primarily for singleplayer and have said so numerous times. People on the forum claim otherwise with no actual evidence other than their gut hunches and the fact that sometimes the devs have made changes with multiplayer in mind (which can and will happen in a game developed primarily for singleplayer, because "primarily" and "exclusively" are not the same word).

3) It is exceedingly unlikely the devs are going to face "harsh consequences" for not agreeing with your point of view, any more than they did for any of the other thing that pissed off portions of the forum fanbase. Lots of people were quite upset they went Steam-only (myself among them), and to say it didn't hurt their bottom line is a massive understatement.

I've never played multiplayer, probably never will and there are a fair few things I find myself dissatisfied with in the current EUIV product, so I am not telling you this out of some reflexive Paradox-can-do-no-wrong thing. But you're not going to get anywhere with a message asserting a demonstrably untrue fact, insinuating the devs are doing something they've repeatedly said they're not doing, and then making impotent threats that the company will founder if they don't turn this ship around right now.
 

Beagá

Banned
74 Badges
May 27, 2007
13.783
4.044
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • For The Glory
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
Lol harsh consequences...

Such entitlement, go design something better instead.

This is just off the top of my head, there's more, lots more. Some of these are grey areas, like events. There should probably be some indication of how to end a peasant's war for example in the game (I don't see how a casual player will see an end to it), but it's impractical to document every event in a manual. Stuff like "how do you get army tradition and how much does each action give" and "does leader maneuver influence terrain choice" are non-negotiable. We found out the latter is "yes" roughly 1/2 year into the game, and that is pathetic to the point of being shameful. AT is still in theory mode.

And make no mistake, getting hosed by the game hiding its rules, and being unable to re-load if it involves achievements is 100% pure fake difficulty. The sheep-like behavior of coming to the defense of that crap and chastising the player for not knowing hidden rules just rubs salt on the wound. It's even better when the player making the comment actually don't know the game that well himself. THAT causes a schism.

No one defends lack of information. That´s a strawman.

Consdiering EU 4 is one of the most complex games in the market is understandable that some things might slip by in the tooltips. But one thing is politely asking them to inform the player or even help the Wiki, another is the bitching so prevalent in this forums.
 

TheMeInTeam

Field Marshal
54 Badges
Dec 27, 2013
30.274
18.949
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
2) The devs develop the game primarily for singleplayer and have said so numerous times. People on the forum claim otherwise with no actual evidence other than their gut hunches and the fact that sometimes the devs have made changes with multiplayer in mind (which can and will happen in a game developed primarily for singleplayer, because "primarily" and "exclusively" are not the same word).

Johan stated directly and without ambiguity that he designs the game around MP first and then wants to tune the AI to behave within that construct. He also said that his design vision has never changed since the first EU game.

Then again, Johan makes some odd stats 101 mistakes and the thread where he said that got deleted.

MP is not even 1/5 of the game's played according to their statistics, but in theory making mechanics sensible for MP environments first and then designing the AI around that isn't a bad thing and it isn't *really* what's pissing people off in these patch changes in the first place. This whole SP vs MP thing is a distraction.

No one defends lack of information. That´s a strawman.

Rubbish. How many times wrt to this crap have people posted "well in real history you didn't know ahead of time" trash arguments. BTW your usage of "strawman" here is asinine and reflects poorly. I'm not even using what you call a "strawman" in an attempt to refute his point, let alone change his argument. If you want to use red herring or something you'd still be wrong as I *am* using it to back up an actual schism on the forum, but at least it wouldn't look so laughably ridiculous ^_^.

Strawman lol. Come on.

Consdiering EU 4 is one of the most complex games in the market is understandable that some things might slip by in the tooltips. But one thing is politely asking them to inform the player or even help the Wiki, another is the bitching so prevalent in this forums.

They deserve more complaints wrt UI than they get. Of all the areas the game has flaws, the game's presentation of its own rules is easily the most objectively shoddy, aside maybe MP functionality (especially cross-platform).
 

Sgt.Pepper1947

Major
1 Badges
Apr 18, 2014
637
36
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
"The actual fanbase" of games is the people who play those games.

You are not a better person or a better gamer because you played a game earlier in a series than someone else, and it does not make your tastes intrinsically more valuable.
I don't think you get the point, the point is that the actual fan-base are the people who made them break through the markets, they are the actual fan-base that bought the game for its quality; these games just happen to old but I'm sure a quality game can come out today. Then to appeal too a bigger audience they wash down(dumb down etc)the game in the process losing the quality it once had amongst the original base, they become a widely broaden and different game of their former selves. COD once was seen as a innovative and quality game but it opened its doors to casual players and now its seen as repetitive and boring. EU4 is simpler than EU3(which was great), but if Paradox keeps going down this path they'll just be a abstract form of their earlier times.
 
Last edited:

Glen_Runciter

First Lieutenant
23 Badges
Jan 1, 2011
233
27
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris Sign-up
it's just the same that is going on with practically every videogame franchise.
now that more and more people are having computers and tablets and useless smartphones, the costumer pool has changed. almost everything is being dumbed down, multiplayer is the main focus of everything, I swear, some games put a bigger focus on sharing pointless achievements on social networks than some actual gameplay elements, PC gaming is at a terrible, terrible time.
another hardcore simulation franchise that got ruined this year is Football Manager. it makes me really sad that 2 of my absolute favourite franchises, with thousands of gameplay hours spent with them, went down a really bad road.
 

zodium

Person
31 Badges
Sep 9, 2013
3.313
13
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
Rubbish. How many times wrt to this crap have people posted "well in real history you didn't know ahead of time" trash arguments. BTW your usage of "strawman" here is asinine and reflects poorly. I'm not even using what you call a "strawman" in an attempt to refute his point, let alone change his argument. If you want to use red herring or something you'd still be wrong as I *am* using it to back up an actual schism on the forum, but at least it wouldn't look so laughably ridiculous ^_^.

Strawman lol. Come on.

That sentiment occurs exactly zero times in this thread. Go on, check. Are you sure you know what a strawman is? Because it sure seems like Beagá is using it aptly to me.
 

Kyoumen

General
34 Badges
Dec 6, 2009
2.219
4.577
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Victoria 2 A House Divided Beta
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Deus Vult
  • Sengoku
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
I have nothing against the fact that Paradox makes profits. I wish them the best. But I thought their communication about it was odd, like if as players and customers we are suppose to rejoice because of the profits of Paradox stakeholders.

For people that like Paradox and their products, why wouldn't they be happy that Paradox is successful? Heck, I wish their continued success even if I lose interest in their games. They seem largely like a decent group of people as companies go.

Plus, the more money Paradox makes, the more money they can reinvest into their core products. I certainly would at least take cautious interest in an eventual Rome 2 and Victoria 3.

As for the future of Paradox, I think it is great if they attract new players with their new streamlining game design, but, at the end of the day, they will never reach out the candy crush playerbase, no matter how hard they try to casualize their games.

It is a fairly ludicrous assertion to say they are trying to reach the fanbase of simple facebook-based games.

But here's an assertion that isn't ludicrous:

CKII sold more than all the harder, more complicated Paradox games that preceded it. EUIV sold more than CK2. Ergo, there is in fact a broader audience who might play Paradox games and Paradox did in fact tap into that audience successfully.

So why shouldn't they continue to do that? If the only reason is "A small minority of your fanbase on some internet forums don't like what you're doing", then that obviously might as well be no reason at all.

People who play strategy games in an historical settings want depth, complexity and attention to detail. If Paradox move away from this they will lose their fanbase, have bad publicity and could see competition rise.

There are many, many, many, many, MANY strategy games in historical settings that have been successful without having anywhere near the depth, complexity and attention to detail of EUIV. There is no way I can take your prediction seriously, and I doubt those at Paradox would either (not least of which because I doubt they would agree with the fundamental premise that they're "moving away" from that in the first place).

The Dlc's milking is another problem, I have given up EU4 because of them, the free updates coming with them break the game each time and I have higher standard of quality.

I've barely played CK2 and haven't bought any Paradox DLCs since the Rajas of India DLC I eagerly bought with great anticipation rendered the game unable to play on my and many other computers, in addition to containing many problems that should have been spotted almost instantly by any playtesters and others which were not instantly obvious but I felt should and would have been found with any adequate testing. That was three DLCs in a row I consider to have been released in a state that made me feel like an idiot for buying them at release instead of waiting a few months for patches and 75% off sales, and three was my limit (particularly as I've seen nothing from Paradox that indicates they feel there was even a problem, or that they plan to do anything to prevent it happening in future).

So just to make things clear, I am far from unsympathetic to your and others' viewpoints here (although I don't agree with all of it either).

But I also feel that facts are facts and opinions are opinions, and the facts are that apparently a large majority of the playbase doesn't have any of these problems with the games (including my own, since apparently numbers jump huge with each new DLC and there's no obvious sign Paradox's playtesting procedures or lack thereof have damaged their brand or enthusiasm overall). So saying that the company's going to lose its fanbase by doing this that or the other thing, or saying something as silly and obviously untrue as "Paradox games are like facebook puzzle games that Grandma plays", aren't going to convince anyone of anything.
 

TheMeInTeam

Field Marshal
54 Badges
Dec 27, 2013
30.274
18.949
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
I don't think you get the point, the point is that the actual fan-base are the people who made them break through the markets, they are the actual fan-base that bought the game on for its quality; these games just happen to old but I'm sure a quality game can come out today. Then to appeal too a bigger audience they wash down(dumb down etc)the game in the process losing the quality it once had amongst the original base, they become an widely broaden and different game of their former selves. COD once was seen as innovative and quality game but it opened its doors to casual players and now its seen as repetitive and boring. EU4 is simpler than EU3(which was great), if Paradox keeps going down this path they'll just be a abstract form of their earlier times.

It's important to separate the dumbing down vs strict poor implementation though. Stuff like monarch points and the removal of province decisions (I hear EU 3 had province level control) can dumb down the game. Stuff like "we won't give you any indication of when you'll have a river crossing" is poor implementation.

If you want to make money, despite its questionable quality in terms of depth CoD seems a strong model. The problem is, PI isn't even doing a good job of THAT, because tons of their implementation in EU IV is the exact opposite of "pick up and play this". You can more or less understand the rules and controls of CoD within a few hours (maybe less). I'd guess that most players who have played 200 hours still don't know all of the hidden rules of EU IV.

The worst of both worlds is when mechanics changes are both obscure and make the game more shallow.

That sentiment occurs exactly zero times in this thread. Go on, check. Are you sure you know what a strawman is? Because it sure seems like Beagá is using it aptly to me.

Weak.

A "strawman" necessitates that the person making it frames an argument as something someone else made and then arguing against it. Show me where this is happening. The statement I made did not directly address who I quoted, and it is relevant to the existence of a schism on the forum. It's my own statement of a schism, not something I'm trying to pin on someone else.

The scope of the existence of a "schism" per the OP extends beyond this thread, which should be obvious as he quotes posts from other threads as part of the OP. I don't see how you can realistically claim that I'm off-base to cite posting tendency in other threads here, when the OP cites postings from other threads here to make his point. I really don't see how you can possibly conclude I've changed someone's argument and then argued against that change. So yes, show me how I did that.
 
Last edited:

RobRoy3

Recruit
16 Badges
Mar 21, 2001
3.568
798
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
The devs develop the game primarily for singleplayer and have said so numerous times.
Now there's a claim with no actual evidence. If such statements by the devs actually exist, I'd be interested in seeing them. I have seen statements to the contrary.

The worst of both worlds is when mechanics changes are both obscure and make the game more shallow.
Or when the core rules change from month to month.
 

WeissRaben

Gian Galeazzo Visconti #1 Fanboy.
95 Badges
Sep 29, 2008
6.949
5.461
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
Now there's a claim with no actual evidence. If such statements by the devs actually exist, I'd be interested in seeing them. I have seen statements to the contrary.

There was a post by Captain Gars earlier in development, where he said that the rest of the team would have to walk over his corpse before he allowed EU4 to become an MP-only game. But I don't know if that still holds (or, to be honest, if the current Captain Gars is actually a zombie and said march did happen).
 

TheMeInTeam

Field Marshal
54 Badges
Dec 27, 2013
30.274
18.949
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
Now there's a claim with no actual evidence. If such statements by the devs actually exist, I'd be interested in seeing them. I have seen statements to the contrary.

Or when the core rules change from month to month.

Gradually tweaking rules over time to get the experience closer to design intention would be fine. The problem with these core rules changes is that they're drastic in nature and scope to the point where you can't realistically test their impact/implications across the game.
 

RobRoy3

Recruit
16 Badges
Mar 21, 2001
3.568
798
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
There was a post by Captain Gars earlier in development, where he said that the rest of the team would have to walk over his corpse before he allowed EU4 to become an MP-only game. But I don't know if that still holds (or, to be honest, if the current Captain Gars is actually a zombie and said march did happen).
I'd be interested to see if Captain Zombie still holds that position, given contradictory statements by Johan. I'm perfectly happy to discount such statements by Johan, since he does have a tendency to... hmmm... "overstate", perhaps? Not that he'd be alone in using hyperbole on this forum.
 

Kyoumen

General
34 Badges
Dec 6, 2009
2.219
4.577
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Victoria 2 A House Divided Beta
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Deus Vult
  • Sengoku
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
I don't think you get the point, the point is that the actual fan-base are the people who made them break through the markets,

So the actual fanbase are the people who bought Magicka, a multiplayer Steam-only action game? Because there's a pretty solid argument that that's the fanbase that fits your description.

they are the actual fan-base that bought the game for its quality; these games just happen to old but I'm sure a quality game can come out today. Then to appeal too a bigger audience they wash down(dumb down etc)the game in the process losing the quality it once had amongst the original base, they become a widely broaden and different game of their former selves. COD once was seen as a innovative and quality game but it opened its doors to casual players and now its seen as repetitive and boring. EU4 is simpler than EU3(which was great), but if Paradox keeps going down this path they'll just be a abstract form of their earlier times.

Everything you said there is subjective opinion, and (here's a key point) everything you said there would be vehemently denied by many people who are just as much gamers as you.

Putting that aside, however, if there's something about the older games you like that isn't in the newer games, it might be worth looking to see if someone else makes games that cater more to your particular niche and tastes. I mean, you can keep trying to say that Paradox should stop doing things that demonstrably work and have made them an awful lot of money because that is "losing its quality" with regards to the EU series (or whichever), but I can't imagine you've got a good chance at success. "Stop doing this thing that is popular and successful and go back to doing things that were much less popular and successful!" isn't advice too many companies are going to take (and that is, again, even if you ignore the fact that probably most people at Paradox, as well as many on these boards, simply do not agree with your premises and thus will obviously not accept your conclusions).
 

zodium

Person
31 Badges
Sep 9, 2013
3.313
13
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
Sometimes, it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool.

Weak.

A "strawman" necessitates that the person making it frames an argument as something someone else made and then arguing against it. Show me where this is happening. The statement I made did not directly address who I quoted, and it is relevant to the existence of a schism on the forum. It's my own statement of a schism, not something I'm trying to pin on someone else.

A straw man argument is the attribution to someone with whom you disagree of an easily refuted argument that they have not explicitly endorsed in order to undermine their position. That is what you did: you attributed an easily refuted argument (the UI exposes all the rules of the game to a casual player) and attributed that to a group of people with whom you disagree, despite the fact that not only did they not say that, no one at all in the entire six pages of the thread said that.

It's not just a strawman, it's an impressively big strawman, but I guess if you're going to lie, you might as well lie big!
 

TheMeInTeam

Field Marshal
54 Badges
Dec 27, 2013
30.274
18.949
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
A straw man argument is the attribution to someone with whom you disagree of an easily refuted argument that they have not explicitly endorsed in order to undermine their position.

Nope.

That is what you did: you attributed an easily refuted argument (the UI does not expose all the rules of the game to a casual player)

Who did I attribute this to? That's *my* argument as to why there is a schism, and it's used to refute the notion that this game being "casualized" is the issue or cause of the schism here. After doing this, I pointed out that the types of players who defend opaque mechanics are annoying. I never claimed that such happened in this thread or implied that the OP or person I quoted made such a statement. Whose position am I undermining again? The supposed arguments made outside this thread? But their position is the one I'm refuting, and is the source of the schism I'm alleging. That's not a strawman Zodium, that's an attempt to pin the schism on something different than the OP claims is its source.

a group of people with whom you disagree, despite the fact that not only did they not say that, no one at all in the entire six pages of the thread said that.

It's a good thing that the posts I called out in saying that aren't on this thread then, isn't it? Which player am I attributing what argument to again?
 

Miravlix

Captain
66 Badges
Aug 20, 2010
370
62
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Majesty 2
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Impire
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Surviving Mars
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
To me it looks like you guys are utterly clueless.

So far it looks like Paradox is doing the thing that makes people buy what they sell, and therefore totally contradicts everything you say.
 

zodium

Person
31 Badges
Sep 9, 2013
3.313
13
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
Area Man Fails to Achieve Self-Awareness, Doesn't Realize It

You're attributing it to the group of people who think that the game is being casualized in order to undermine that position in favor of dragging your pet peeves into an unrelated thread.
 

Sgt.Pepper1947

Major
1 Badges
Apr 18, 2014
637
36
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
So the actual fanbase are the people who bought Magicka, a multiplayer Steam-only action game? Because there's a pretty solid argument that that's the fanbase that fits your description.



Everything you said there is subjective opinion, and (here's a key point) everything you said there would be vehemently denied by many people who are just as much gamers as you.

Putting that aside, however, if there's something about the older games you like that isn't in the newer games, it might be worth looking to see if someone else makes games that cater more to your particular niche and tastes. I mean, you can keep trying to say that Paradox should stop doing things that demonstrably work and have made them an awful lot of money because that is "losing its quality" with regards to the EU series (or whichever), but I can't imagine you've got a good chance at success. "Stop doing this thing that is popular and successful and go back to doing things that were much less popular and successful!" isn't advice too many companies are going to take (and that is, again, even if you ignore the fact that probably most people at Paradox, as well as many on these boards, simply do not agree with your premises and thus will obviously not accept your conclusions).
I think much more people agree with me, whether it has to do with Paradox or not, there is a general consensus that popular game franchises are becoming washed down and marketed at the casual gamer for profit. Many people would agree game series like COD, Halo and Total War(all revered as quality games) all went down the path Paradox is going now so by proxy I have much people in agreement. I'm not saying go back when you weren't successful but why would you would leave behind what made you successful in the first place, just so you could sell out? and opt for quantity vs quality; things said games franchies have all done. It's not a guess that they Paradox would follow the same path, just look at other companies who went with the MP casual gamer path, the evidence is everywhere suggesting my conclusion is more likely. current examples take a good look at HOI4.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.