The future of EU4 and Paradox games, a schism?

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CrabHelmet

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I think my problems with monarch points are as followed. The first is that they create strategic decisions that don't make much sense/are overly abstracted. An example of this is the fact that it costs the same resource to improve docks and to research new ship types, which means that building more docks around your nation means you are less able to develop new types of ships. This is very counter-intuitive. Their are other examples of this - building training grounds makes you less able to develop new types of soldiers. It's not just buildings, though, this extends to ideas. If I choose a lot of military ideas, which I think are supposed to represent the national spirit or driving Zeitgeist of a nation, then the extent to which I actually improve my army is limited, because setting my Zeitgeist to military slows down the rate at which I unlock new forms of military.

The second is that they engender severe short-termism. A -5 stability hit in previous Europa Universalis 3 titles was terrifying, because you couldn't ameliorate the problem easily - you could speed up or slow down the process by which you regained stability, but you still had to live with the consequences for some time. Under the current system, a nation can descend into terrible instability, then have it be cured within days. This doesn't really seem to match the experience of real early modern European nations, and hurts game-play. This extends to other areas - inflation? Gone instantly. War exhaustion? Gone instantly. I'm not really scared of the consequences of any of my actions any more, other than how much they hurt my ability to core or annex diplomatically. I don't fear stability loss because it means revolts, I fear stability loss because it means I can't core as many provinces.

The third is that mechanics seem very odd when it comes to certain types of government. For example, why would the quality of a monarch affect the ability of a constitutional monarchy to centralize the state/pursue military reforms/advance new diplomatic policies? George III was literally insane, and it didn't prevent Great Britain from going on to triumph in the Napoleonic wars. It seems like monarch points would be better off being 'government points' or 'state points' instead, and have a generation that was dependent on your government type. Another example of where the leader being all-important in generating monarch points is somewhat odd is republics. Why does re-electing my leader make them better at pursuing reforms? Is it because they're now older and more experienced? If that were the case, ordinary monarchs should see slow points increases over time. Is it because they now have more political capital? This may not be the case - they may have gone from a crushing landslide to a marginal victory, in which case you'd expect a monarch point decrease. It seems like a very arbitrary mechanic which exists solely to make republics feel 'different' from monarchies.

The fourth is that monarch point value is not distributed equally at all. Military points are near useless. Seize colony/burn colony are extremely situational, there's no point in using Harsh Treatment when you can simply Accept Demands, and so on. They're only useful for techs and ideas. Meanwhile, administrative is tied to all of the most important stuff in the game - stability, coring, inflation, you name it.

The fifth is that they're too strongly random. The difference between a monarch with 1 in a given stat and a monarch with 5 in a given stat over 20 years, which I think is roughly the average monarch life-span, is 960 points, or enough to purchase an extra technology and almost an extra idea. That's a very large difference, and it's not satisfying to the player when they have so little control over this resource.

The sixth is that they reduce the amount of strategic choice about advisors. In previous EU titles, choosing which advisor you picked was a difficult choice over which you'd spend some time mulling. In EU4, I always want the +3 advisor. Always. If I had a choice between +3 ADM -25% forcelimits (yes, minus forcelimits) and +1 ADM +10% discipline advisor, I'd almost always pick the +3 advisor. You can make the malus associated with the +3 and the bonus associated with the +1 leagues apart, and it will still be a long time before I select the +1 advisor because of just how good having an extra 2 monarch points each month is. It deeply reduces the strategic choice around advisors.

I don't think the monarch point system is inherently bad, but I think it needs some improvements. My suggestions would be that;

  • They are renamed "resource points", to emphasize the fact they're the resources available to the state, rather than simple attributes of the monarch.
  • How many "resource points" are generated depends on the government type mostly, with modifiers depending on the monarch and on advisors. For example, a feudal monarchy might generate a base of 5 research points each month, with monarchs adding a random amount between +0% and +50% depending on how good they are, and advisors adding a random amount between +0% and +10% depending on how good they are. A constitutional monarchy, on the other hand, might generate a base of 7 research points each month, with monarchs adding a random amount between +0% and +15% depending on how good they are, and advisors a random amount between +0% and +15% depending on how good they are. This both makes the mechanic make more sense and allows players to influence their fate by aiming for a specific government type.
  • They are split into more types. For example, there should definitely be a separate naval tree. Why does building more docks make me worse at annexing vassals? Administrative probably needs to be split up too - it just encompasses far too many different aspects of the game.
  • "resource points" cannot be spent, only invested - you can choose to spend a certain amount of resources each month in improving stability, but stability will not improve until enough have been invested and this takes time.
  • Idea groups require resources not of their type to purchase. That is, a Military idea (like, say, +5% discipline), costs 2 Naval Resources and 2 Diplomatic Resources, and a Naval idea costs 2 Military Resources and 2 Diplomatic Resources, and so on. This means that ideas allow you to supercharge a particular category at the cost of making you worse at other categories, which is not what they do now.
  • The different types of resources need to be heavily balanced against each other, and not have one being totally dominant.
  • The prevalence of them is reduced - they don't need to be shoe-horned in to every mechanic. Buildings should probably only cost ducats, because it makes little sense buildings docks give you worse ships. Peace deals should probably not require a resource, because it makes no sense that you should have to prolong a 100% war artificially because apparently you're not persuasive enough to get what you want despite having a total occupation.

I think with these basic changes, the monarch point system could work very well. However, right now I feel it does not work at all, and makes a key element of Europa Universalis 4 worse than it's predecessor. In many other areas it is better - aggressive expansion is a better system than infamy, even if it does need a few tweaks, trade is much better than it was in EU3, even if it would be nice if it worked in loops and bi-directionally - but I feel the monarch point system under the status quo simply does not work. I hope this made for interesting reading and maybe provokes some thoughts in the dev team.

:)

Reposting for next page as it got stuck at bottom.
 

Beagá

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I have had too many starts where one of the pools has no +1s, or only one +1 whose bonus was somewhere between "trash" and "highly situational and I am not in the situation".

But then, I've been a bit grouchy about advisors since 1.7 left the Ottomans in a position where their starting situation leaves them unable to afford a full set of three +1s (and yes, I know the Ottomans do not need advisors in their grand campaign start :) )

Player led Ottomans can do a lot of silly things in a comp stomp game. Doesn´t mean the strategy is "good". Try doing that in a multi-player game.

Monarch points and the removal of the slider system are my least favourite aspects of EU4 compared to EU3. Most of the rest of the game I think is better - trade is better, AE is better than infamy, the Personal Union mechanics are better, the UI is better, etc. But those two things are just... blargh.

Monarch points are acceptable. What is shitty is the way Stability is handled in the game. It´s a joke.
 

CrabHelmet

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Monarch points are acceptable. What is shitty is the way Stability is handled in the game. It´s a joke.

The two are intrinsically linked. The idea that monarch points are something to be spent and not invested is what makes stability bad, and the same thing that makes war exhaustion/inflation/etc. bad.
 

Tufto

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I like monarch points. I remember playing EU3 and having to choose between money or tech all the time. And watching how all the large nations fell horribly behind while tiny OPMS were several techs ahead.

God, I love monarch points :p it actually forces you to make decisions with your tech, and puts everyone on an even footing in their tech group. Makes it more about choice than about your starting position, which is good.

I like the randomness. If it wasn't random, and was fixed, then the larger nations (i.e. the ones who can afford higher-tier advisors) would have far too much of a tech/idea advantage, leading to a blob-filled world. The randomness is something you have to factor in and adapt around, which is good too.
 

Beagá

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The two are intrinsically linked. The idea that monarch points are something to be spent and not invested is what makes stability bad, and the same thing that makes war exhaustion/inflation/etc. bad.

It´s not that simple. EU 4 has a crapton of countries all doing their thing at the same time. While many things should indeed be investments, or processes, that can quickly reduce performance or create bugs. Imagine 120 countries, all with a Stability bar that must be filled for them to gain one extra point. Now imagine creating events, decisions or other stuff to make the Stability bar to move forward/backwards. Now imagine creating AI processes for handling that, as well.

Compare that to a system where all you need is X points to raise Stability by one point.

Enough said.
 

WeissRaben

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I like monarch points. I remember playing EU3 and having to choose between money or tech all the time. And watching how all the large nations fell horribly behind while tiny OPMS were several techs ahead.

That was because of tech maluses the bigger you get, though, and had little to do with the tech-for-money system. It worked the other way around, even - the bigger you were, the more you could gain in minting with little inflation and putting most of the money in tech.
 

Kljunas

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DLC that has given lots of good events, internal politics and flavour has a total of 0 (0%) because you know it won't sell so you won't make it.......

no sorry a few dressup and portraits are not what i mean... especially with Ck2 there needs to be hundreds more events for our characters and their life, the game is so boring now

Sons of Abraham? Legacy of Rome?
 

Sai Gon

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Sons of Abraham? Legacy of Rome?

yeah wow I can go on a pilgrimage, which the 3rd time I do it is entirely predictable in all outcomes. there needs to be hundreds if not thousands of more events in ck2 relating to characters and what can happen to them with REAL consequences.

holding a feast for the 25th time to boost relations temporarily is not exciting when you're doing it again and again and again........
 

Kljunas

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yeah wow I can go on a pilgrimage, which the 3rd time I do it is entirely predictable in all outcomes. there needs to be hundreds if not thousands of more events in ck2 relating to characters and what can happen to them with REAL consequences.

holding a feast for the 25th time to boost relations temporarily is not exciting when you're doing it again and again and again........

My point is that they are DLCs about flavour, events and even internal politics (factions were part of the patch, but still). So don't claim that Paradox aren't making them.

Now if you don't think they're good enough that's another issue.
 

CrabHelmet

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I like monarch points. I remember playing EU3 and having to choose between money or tech all the time. And watching how all the large nations fell horribly behind while tiny OPMS were several techs ahead.

...that made perfect sense. Smaller countries tended to be more technologically advanced. Russia was less-advanced than the Habsburg Realms was less-advanced than France was less-advanced than Britain was less advanced than the Netherlands, if you look at GDP per capita by 1800. Also, being several techs behind wasn't as crucial in EU3, the techs were somewhat more graduated than in EU4.
 

CrabHelmet

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It´s not that simple. EU 4 has a crapton of countries all doing their thing at the same time. While many things should indeed be investments, or processes, that can quickly reduce performance or create bugs. Imagine 120 countries, all with a Stability bar that must be filled for them to gain one extra point. Now imagine creating events, decisions or other stuff to make the Stability bar to move forward/backwards. Now imagine creating AI processes for handling that, as well.

I'm imagining EU3 here?
 

LiberiusX

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Rulers are actually 2d4-2 rather than d7-1, but you're also ignoring the +3 base, advisors, and if you have the appropriate DLC, National Focus and Power Projection. One can argue about what exact degree of randomness is appropriate, but saying that it's currently 100% random is quite misleading.

Wiz chose the decision 'Whistle Stop Tour'
-All Pops gain .25% Literacy
-All conservative Pops lose 2.00 militancy
-All liberal and newbie pops gain 1.00 consciousness
 

airpirate

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ITT: "Dem dirty casuals are ruining everything" and "It's popular so it sucks".

I swear, "hardcore gamers" (or as was said earlier in the thread, gaming hipsters) are the worst part of the Paradox forums (or any gaming forum really).

Does the game have design issues? Definitely, but screaming about how Paradox is "dumbing down" (which is, by the way, a really condescending phrase) or "casualizing" (which is even more condescending) the series is about as far from constructive as can be.
 

Beagá

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I'm imagining EU3 here?

Not really. EU 3 model still wasn´t perfect, because it also felt artificial. But it could have been worked upon, instead of scrapped.

The "perfect" stability model would take into account king´s skill, religious unity, cultural unity, ideas etc. All those would then either

1- Change the cost to increase Stab
2- Generate events which would move the Stab bar forward or backward.
 

Incompetent

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The monarch point system seems fine to me. I think the fuss about monarch stats is not so much how random they are (you occasionally roll a really good/bad monarch, but most monarchs are close to average), but because so many other kinds of randomness have disappeared from the game. Before, things like cultural and religious conversion were were just rolling the dice. Now, you know exactly how long it will take and whether or not you can do it. Colonies are another example: the bonus growth from a colonist is still random, but it ticks so often that the law of large numbers kicks in. Besides, the initial colonisation always succeeds, and the passive settler growth rate is almost completely predictable (and is often the main source of growth). I remember in EU2, natural increase in the colonies was far to slow to rely on, so you were constantly sending colonists and then getting disappointed X months later when they failed to do anything.

I think one thing that would make players less unhappy about the randomness of monarchs is more opportunities to 'upgrade' them at the cost of some effort (not monarch points!) to do so. This is already in the game for Hindu rulers, but it could be more widely available and also more focused. I like the way it works in CK2: if your character has a really bad stat, he knows it and can make it his ambition to achieve an 'average' level in that stat. The same thing would be nice in EU4: say your king has less than 3 in a stat, then he could get a chain of events that lets him improve the stat (up to a maximum of 3) at some suitable cost. I think the feeling that you can do something to fix the situation, even if it's expensive and difficult, would reduce a lot of the frustration about long-lived incompetent rulers.
 
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