the Future of Arsenal of Democracy

[vitality]

As for Asia there are some map changes that would make me very happy.
The provinces delineations of Japan are atrocious. Tokyo is basically the entire real life kanto region.
Compare to the UK, this is about the same as if London, Norwich and Dover were one big coastal capital province. (in terms of both km2 and game balance).
It would be a bit more balanced if the coast/port part of the city was split off and the capital province was made landlocked as London is in the UK.
For reference:

Kantō region - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Regions of England - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Overall Japan is way too vulnerable to amphibious assaults. Again compare to UK. Scotland has no beach provinces at the moment. Compare topographical maps and you'll see that most of Japan is at least as difficult to invade from the sea.
It's at the moment ridiculously easy to conquer just by sailing up to the capital and rolling ashore with a few tank divs. Since its a plains the garrisons there just fold. Capture it and basically knock Japan out of the war in a couple of hours since so much of their industrial capacity is focused in that province.

 

[Pioniere]

I’m now thinking of the potential for what a soviet victory can have in AOD now that we got more nations alternatives and possible better events that could fit in later on. I have not added CHC communist china to the picture. Mao’s China is for me more than a rival than an ally to Soviet

A flavor nation for Soviet would be an Afghan puppet version, but it’s not very important. I have not forgotten a soviet Hungary, but it has to wait.
I would like to see first a more updated victory in Europe for the Soviets.

 

[Epokextra]

HI everyone.

I'm very happy a new patch is underway with other plans for the future.

After reading the threads, here's my wish list.

1. The proposed changes for technology are great (new techs, new units, new brigades). For most tech trees, I would suggest adding 1 tech between 1918 and 1936. I think no major country should start with 1918 Inf. A new tech, let say 1930 Inf could be created. The same goes for ships and aircrafts. BB Nelson is not a 1918 BB, nor a 1936 BB.

2. If coding is possible, allow 2 brigades per land unit.

3. (Mr BOnarpte) Slightly better intelligence on military numbers (secondary focus, information on various types of land units, capital ships).

4. Reduce the cost of HQ to enable most countries to produce a few. Also reduce their range in attack to motivate major powers to build more of them.

5. Create a free set up option. At the start of each scenario, reorganizing armies, fleets and air wings is very time consuming and not fun. If one could set up freely, it would be much more enjoyable. Of course, you could make up your own restrictions in order to avoid unrealistic situations.

6. Work on events should be limited to solving important issues. Of course, no spam of events.

7. (Mr BOnarpte, Pioniere, Bosman, Victor1234 and others) Tweaks in some parts of the map. Using a new map is way beyond our current capabilities. Other initiatives towards porting maps have failed so far, because this require revising the whole game (resources, industries, events, scenarios, some unit capabilities, some AI...). After 1.13, you might start a series of small patches. Each one would focus on a portion of the map. IMHO, Soviet areas facing China and Japan need an overhaul.

8. (Victor1234...) No Cold War expansion as I feel you have more than enough work to do on other items.
Techs are needed until 1950 or 1953 (death of Stalin), as WW2 could potentially last until then.
WW3 shortly after WW2 is highly unlikely except if Stalin has several nuclear bombs with advanced long range bombers. Western governments must listen to their people's demand to end the war.

 

[MJF]

Some good ideas here, not all doable, probably.

I've likely written too much already on this subject. I especially vote strongly for an altered Intelligence function, with big penalties for not spending on it. The daily costs could be reduced to help here.

Penalties for not spending on Military expenses - your best generals should periodically leave for the Private Sector.

Naval Transports that trot around unescorted and are caught by enemies should seldom if ever get away. Alternatively, it would be great if troops could be loaded on to capital ships, for transport to other ports/bases only - no amphibbing without transports. 1 division/Cap ship. I believe this took place...? Yes - in this game, Naval Transport ships are both large Troopships/Converted passenger liners, and amphib landing craft. I think of it as the one being "attached" to the other.

A new map would be great. Especially glaring are Kazakstan/Central Russia, where CAS's can't even attack the neighboring province, and New York/Pennsylvania, where to outflank Buffalo one must go through the mountains of WV???


To review some of my past thoughts (Some -- not too many!):

AC's were a scout vehicle, mostly, correct? They could therefore improve speed +1, as well as organization and soft attack.

Scout plane attachments to ground units, or better-yet, HQ units! Alternatively, consider that the HQ unit has a scout plane built-in, so all units within 1 province of the HQ gets a +1 speed increase! I've thought that infantry moving around without AC's or Int/MRF air superiority cover (or my suggested scout plane attachment) should suffer large ambush penalties. However, some of this may be built-in to the Cryptography research tree now...?

2 brigade attachments to land units -Yes!! Maybe not doable.


Seems to me that if all we did, in addition to tech tree tweaks, was to penaliuze players for not spending on Intel and Military salaries, and let unescorted naval Transports be destroyed by the simplest of enemy ships, we would equalize and toughen the game significantly, not to mention add to the realism.

One day I should actually try playing HOI IV. I've owned it since the beginning. Probably by the time I actually play it, V will be out.

 

[stevep]

Like a number of things in the last two posts. Especially
a) Closing the cheat that you can leave your military unpaid for years with only minor losses in terms of attrition. That's utterly unreasonable. Even in a dictatorship you couldn't do that for long as vast numbers would either desert or starve or you would face a military coup. Possibly anything below 50% for any period of time results in penalties, say higher MP losses and/or dissent?

b) Agree that there is really too big a gulf between 1918 and 1936 and the idea of a 1930 level would fill that gap nicely.

c) Better returns for intelligence. Not just raw numbers of Inf & Arm/Mot units but, when your got enough spies especially you can see some breakdown of what types of each. There's a world of difference between an army of ~300 Inf Divs which are largely militia and those which have say Inf 41 divs.

d) Making escorting for merchants and transports more important. A fair number of independent sailings did occur but they were vulnerable to raiders, subs or in some areas air attack. Might need an exception, especially for subs when its a liner converted to a troop transport as those things could steam very fast so there is a basis for them to be difficult to torpedo - although that could add a level of complexity.

e) Would agree that an entirely new map would be a huge resource sink so is best avoided but some tweaking where there are particular issues would be useful.

 

[Czarina Julie]

There was a dev alpha build that went out late last night. I'll try to answer most of your questions:

The proposed changes for technology are great (new techs, new units, new brigades). For most tech trees, I would suggest adding 1 tech between 1918 and 1936. I think no major country should start with 1918 Inf.

All majors now do not start with any 1918 infantry. Some do start with 1918 Great War Marine and Mountain, while other majors haven't researched any of these two.

If coding is possible, allow 2 brigades per land unit

Already on the list is to put all the unit's number of attachments allowed. It will in the misc.txt file like the naval ships. I t will require changes to the code to support multiple brigades for some units, and update the existing code to read/write to the misc.txt file.

This is needed to support the air-to-air and air to ground missiles, escort fighters for transports, air refuelers, etc.

(Mr BOnarpte) Slightly better intelligence on military numbers (secondary focus, information on various types of land units, capital ships).

He's now on the 1.13 release team. On the list is to update the Intel screen to give more detailed information.

Example of the naval section:​

Instead of seeing "They have 7 Battleships, 2 Carriers, and 3 Battlecruisers, while we estimate that they have around 85 smaller ships."​

Dependent upon the number of spys, intel %, etc. it would break out of the ships. So Destroyers, Heavy and Light Cruisers, Light Carrier, and Carrier. Additionally, it could also list unit's in the Production queue.

cost of HQ to enable most countries to produce a few.

Oops. Missed that one. Fixed now.

Also reduce their range in attack to motivate major powers to build more of them

I like this one, but we'll need to discuss this among the release team.

Work on events should be limited to solving important issues. Of course, no spam of events.

Most new events are already done, but there are a few still to be made. As for the spamming of certain events (e.g. "Do you want to outlaw XXX", etc.), they now have local flags. Once the random event fires, it will not fire again for that country.

Tweaks in some parts of the map. Using a new map is way beyond our current capabilities.

I wouldn't want to do any "tweaks." Using a new map is not beyond our capabilities, it's just very time-consuming. We, the release team, have already discussed this and it's almost certain it will not be in the 1.13 release. We have discussed it being in another release.

No Cold War expansion as I feel you have more than enough work to do on other items.
Techs are needed until 1950 or 1953

We have techs going up to 1964 now.

Penalties for not spending on Military expenses - your best generals should periodically leave for the Private Sector

Closing the cheat that you can leave your military unpaid for years with only minor losses in terms of attrition.

This is something that the release team needs to discuss. I never knew that cheat, as I always keep my military funded 100%.

it would be great if troops could be loaded on to capital ships, for transport to other ports/bases only - no amphibbing without transports. 1 division/Cap ship. I believe this took place...? Yes - in this game, Naval Transport ships are both large Troopships/Converted passenger liners, and amphib landing craft. I think of it as the one being "attached" to the other.

I'm not for capital ships being able to transport troops. Transports are cheap and we now have 6 types. There will be a ship (Helicopter ships, LPHs) that will carrier a MEU (Marine Expeditionary Unit) and allowed to carry an Air Unit (Helicopter) that can attack provinces. Additionally, we have plans for new unit types with one being Converted Liners for troop transport that are quicker than normal transports but can only transport troops from one port to another (no amphibious assault). As for all of this getting into the 1.13 release, depends upon time and human resources available.

AC's were a scout vehicle, mostly, correct? They could therefore improve speed +1, as well as organization and soft attack.

Increased in speed by having an armor car? I can't see that. We now have 7 Engineers (1914-1964) to research and they increase speed from 0.35 to 2. They also increase toughness, defensiveness, suppression, and airdefence.

Below are the new technology research screens. They are not finished yet and we have plans:

• for expanding the manufacturing by adding 3 new techs before 1936 and 3 after 1940
• for expanding the assembly lines
• separate radar and ASW technologies
• adding more medical technologies
• expand the Cryptography technologies
• add computer technologies
• possibly break out the CAG into their own technology tree (still discussing)
• add 2 mining Equipment technologies
• add 2 Oil Equipment and Exploration technologies
• add 3-4 Power/Utility Generation Plants (Dams/Hydro), Coal, oil plants) technologies.
• create 11 new research types (tech team skills):
  • Medical Science
  • Aircraft Testing
  • Vehicle Engineering
  • Munitions
  • Carrier Design
  • Submarine Design
  • Capital Ships Design
  • Fighter Design
  • Bomber Design
  • Military Engineering
  • Rotary Wing Aviation

 

[MJF]

Increased in speed by having an armor car? I can't see that. We now have 7 Engineers (1914-1964) to research and they increase speed from 0.35 to 2. They also increase toughness, defensiveness, suppression, and airdefence.

My thinking was that a unit that scouts ahead could allow its attached troops to advance more quickly, as they have less of a need to be deployed as they advance, but you would know more about this than me.

 

[MJF]

This patch sounds like it should be AOD 2.0. Has BL-Logic dropped completely out of the picture?

 

[PB-DK]

This patch sounds like it should be AOD 2.0. Has BL-Logic dropped completely out of the picture?

no aod 2 is still rolling ahead, just need lennart to not be buried in work to feed his family as he is the main and so far only coder there

that said, i have been very satisfied by what Julie has done so far and i have high hopes for seeing these changes she is making come to life and to the enjoyment of everyone... that said, 1.13 might be getting a lot of beta updates and might not be formally out this year while we work on all the ideas

 

[Czarina Julie]

My thinking was that a unit that scouts ahead could allow its attached troops to advance more quickly, as they have less of a need to be deployed as they advance, but you would know more about this than me.

Just an FYI...In the US Army, the scouts (infantry, LARPs, etc.) are intel gathering units. The Engineer Reconnaissance Teams will do intel gather but their main mission is to check routes for restrictions. Some of what they recon are:

• Limiting curves - curves that slow down vehicle speeds and restrict movement. Some engineer equipment can't move through some smaller and older villages/burgs in Europe the engineers must go around (AVLB, CEVs, low boys...semi-trucks moving construction equipment, etc.)
• Slopes - They perform the slope percentages
• Fording sites - possible and current sites
• river crossing sites - determine stream velocity and restrictions
• tunnels - tunnel restrictions (width, height)
• road conditions - when the road conditions change from one type to another
• road conditions - base on weather changes
• Man made obstacles - blown bridges, road craters, log cribs, abatis, minefields, wire fences, concertina, etc.
• Natural obstacles - hills, mountains.

So it's actually the engineer moves the infantry forward. Motto - "First in, last out"

 

[MJF]

Just an FYI...In the US Army, the scouts (infantry, LARPs, etc.) are intel gathering units. The Engineer Reconnaissance Teams will do intel gather but their main mission is to check routes for restrictions. Some of what they recon are:

• Limiting curves - curves that slow down vehicle speeds and restrict movement. Some engineer equipment can't move through some smaller and older villages/burgs in Europe the engineers must go around (AVLB, CEVs, low boys...semi-trucks moving construction equipment, etc.)
• Slopes - They perform the slope percentages
• Fording sites - possible and current sites
• river crossing sites - determine stream velocity and restrictions
• tunnels - tunnel restrictions (width, height)
• road conditions - when the road conditions change from one type to another
• road conditions - base on weather changes
• Man made obstacles - blown bridges, road craters, log cribs, abatis, minefields, wire fences, concertina, etc.
• Natural obstacles - hills, mountains.

So it's actually the engineer moves the infantry forward. Motto - "First in, last out"

Cool. Did they do these in WW II?

 

[MJF]

BTW, two things I liked about Darkest Hour are the "Air Scramble" (?) mission for Int's/MRF's - where they quickly deploy after bombers that come "near" them vs having to wear them out with constant Air Sup missions, and the listing in your dashboard of alliance units you take MC of. It is a pain to have to search for these units accross the map because their air units are not listed in your air units display, etc.

Another thought - when you reload a saved game, and allied Naval transports you command are frozen in transit. They "Lose" their orders, forcing you to hunt around for them to reissue the orders. Be nice if this could be fixed.

 

[Czarina Julie]

Cool. Did they do these in WW II?

Yes, they did. I went searching for a good example of an Engineer Recon and found this site that shows a route recon and all the restrictions that can affect a route:
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-21-94/appa.htm

BTW, two things I liked about Darkest Hour are the "Air Scramble" (?) mission for Int's/MRF's

This is already on the list. To my understanding (from older release team members), this was in the code but wasn't working or finished.

allied Naval transports you command are frozen in transit. They "Lose" their orders, forcing you to hunt around for them to reissue the orders. Be nice if this could be fixed.

I didn't know about this one. Added to list

 

[Epokextra]

Thank you Czarina Julie for the good news and the good work.

As you posted the technological trees included in the alpha build, I would like to make a few comments (just my two cents).

During the current time frame of AOD (1936-1945), main technologies (ART, ARM, MOT, INT, FTR, TAC, NAV, BB, CA, CL, DD...) improve every 2 or 3 years. This keeps the arms race very interesting and makes the game quite challenging.

If WW2 had ended later (for example 1950) or if WW3 had erupted (for example in 1950), there is little doubt the technological race would have continued with the same intensity (i.e. improvements every 2 or 3 years).

Looking at the proposed trees, I think we need more technological "steps". For exemple, for INT and FTR, we have "improved turbojet", "supersonic", improved supersonic". Those 3 steps might not be enough for the chosen time frame (1946-1964). Each technological step could be an aircraft model (F-86, F-100, F-101, F-102..., F-4, F-5...) rather than a technological breakthrough, just like during WW2.

If main technologies don't have enough steps, major countries will generally be at the same level for critical technologies.

 

[Czarina Julie]

During the current time frame of AOD (1936-1945), main technologies (ART, ARM, MOT, INT, FTR, TAC, NAV, BB, CA, CL, DD...) improve every 2 or 3 years. This keeps the arms race very interesting and makes the game quite challenging.

I would include logistics and support, not to mention the advancements in engineering.

If WW2 had ended later (for example 1950) or if WW3 had erupted (for example in 1950), there is little doubt the technological race would have continued with the same intensity (i.e. improvements every 2 or 3 years).

Hmmm? There were a lot of military advancements that came to completion after the war. They were advancements discovered, thought of, designed, and even prototype before war's end. Everyone remembers the ME-262. Its first flight was in 1942 and entered service in 1944. How many remember that UK had 3 jets with first flights in 1941 and 1943? Or the US had 10 jets with first flights in 1942, 1943, 1944, and 1945 before the war ended. And between the US and UK, there were 3 jets that enter service before the end of the war.

I agree that the advancements slowed down after the war. The war was over, troops leaving the service and going home, less resources, etc. would all expand the time advancements would take. The majority of "advancements" that were fielded after WW2, were actually advancements that started during the war.

Looking at the proposed trees, I think we need more technological "steps".

We're actually still working on the technologies. For example, the infantry technology screen even has more since the last posting (and still more to add):

Just on this screen, we're planning on more Marines, Mountain, Airborne, Armored Cav, Motorized Mechanized, and the new Air Mobile. We're looking at adding:

• a new tech tree called War College/??? and remove all HQs from the land doctrines into this new tech tree.
• add 2 more HQs, bringing the total to 6 HQs
• expand the manufacturing technologies by adding 6 new ones (3 before 1936, 3 after 1940)
• add 2 mining Equipment techs:
  • 10% - 25% for Advanced Construction and Adv Mach Tools
  • increase random province metal by 2
  • increase random province rare by 1
  • increase metal and rares by 3-5% of current resource pool
• add 2 Oil Equipment and Exploration techs
  • 10% - 25% for industrial_multiplier, energy_to_oil/oil_to_rare_materials and building_eff_mod, synthetic_oil
  • increase random province oil by 1-2
  • increase oil by 3-5% of current resource pool
• add 3-4 Power/Utility Generation Plants (Dams/Hydro), Coal, oil plants)
  • 10% - 25% for industrial_multiplier, energy_to_oil and building_eff_mod, synthetic_oil
  • increase energy by 3-5% of current resource pool
  • increase random province energy by 5-10
• Split ASW out of Radar on Industrial screen
• increase the Cryptography technologies
• new tech tree of computers

And many more.

 

[MJF]

Anybody ever think about allowing Motorized units to "upgrade" to MEC's? Isn't that more or less what actually happened? Were there many/any MOT's in the major's armies near war's end, vs MEC's? When there seemed to be, wasn't it more INF + Trucks attached (vs the original MOT's) as well as the more elite units being MEC's?

Lt Armor upgrades to Med Armor. Should there be an option at least to upgrade MOT's to MEC's -- even at a stiffer IC cost?

 

[Czarina Julie]

Currently, the way an upgrade works is through the individual division files (..\db\units\divisions). So if we want to have a Motorized Infantry to upgrade to Mechanized Infantry, the different models (Basic, Improved, Advance, etc.) for both the Motorized and Mechanized would need to be in the same file. Currently, they are in two separate files, motorized.txt and mechanized.txt. Putting them into the same file will not work since the game's code logic expects only one type of unit per file. The reason is that the new models are sequential in the file and determines the upgrade path for that file's divisions/brigades. So to have a cross-upgrade path would require code changes in the game's hardcode.

With the amount of hardcode fixes and changes already on the list, getting it done for the current release isn't feasible. However, we could go the route like Infantry to Mechanized is currently done. I could create an upgrade attachment/brigade that would turn a motorized infantry into a mechanized infantry. The upgrade brigade/attachment would upgrade the motorized stats to be equal to that of the same year mechanized infantry. The only issue, just like it is for the current mechanized upgrade for infantry, is that the upgraded motorized infantry unit's icon/counter/sprite would not change, remaining that of a motorized infantry.

 

[adfs]

Hi, Czarina Julie, are there any AI improvements from the coding perspective other than the scripts?

 

[KostasL]

It would be awesome if we could implement the Darkest Hour decisions system...and if we could also make possible multiple brigades for land divisions, just like Darkest Hour does!

 

[Czarina Julie]

Hi, @Czarina Julie, are there any AI improvements from the coding perspective other than the scripts?

There has been but I'm not the best person to discuss AI. We have two team members that do AI changes and the best one to answer what changes have been made and what changes are schedule would be PB-DK. So I'll defer to his expertise.

It would be awesome if we could implement the Darkest Hour decisions system...and if we could also make possible multiple brigades for land divisions, just like Darkest Hour does!

If you're referring to DH's decisions that would allow a player to purchase certain things with money, then we do have that in 1.13. We now have:

• a system where a cashed scrap country can issue Government Bonds for an immediate 1,500 cash with a 6 (250 cash) repayment plan that starts 5 years after issuing the Government Bonds. The country can not be at war to issue Government Bonds. Each of the 6 repayments can be done in either money (250), supplies (625), rares (938), oil (1282), metal (1932), or energy (3841).
• a system where a cashed scrap country can issue War Bonds for an immediate 1,500 cash with a 6 (250 cash) repayment plan that starts 10 years after issuing the War Bonds. The country must be at war to issue War Bonds. Each of the 6 repayments can be done in either money (250), supplies (625), rares (938), oil (1282), metal (1932), or energy (3841).
• 3 random events, based on the old Inactive Tech Team loses a skill event, that now lets a country react to that team losing a skill. This is done by allowing a country to now fund the team or not fund the team. Funding the team keeps it from losing a skill and the amount to fund the team is done on a sliding scale base on the country's current IC. More IC, the more the country pays to fund the team.
• 5 new random events that can add resources to the provinces:
  • Rare Mineral Deposits - "A mining consortium has discovered a new source of rare mineral deposits." It will add 1 rare to a random province
  • Oil Drilling - "Drilling efforts have discovered a new source of oil." It will add 2 oil to a random province
  • Coal Deposit - "A new coal deposit has been discovered. In anticipation of the increased coal production, the local utility companies have built new power plants" It will add 5 energy to a random province
  • New Ore Deposit - "During excavations, for a new road, the construction company discovered an ore deposit." It will add 3 metal to a random province
  • Excess Crops - "Farmers have reported excess crops this season due to good weather and agricultural advancements." It will add 500 supplies.
• The above are already done and working. We have plans to create 5 techs that once researched will give one of the 5 resources to a random province.

With the two different bond systems, a country could acquire 3,000 money if they first issue the government bonds then once at war issue the war bonds. If a country does issue government bonds, they could end up having to repay them during wartime (due to the maturity of the bonds after 5 years). Whereas, if a country issues war bonds, it's 10 years for the bond maturity.

As for divisions having the ability to have more than one brigade/attachment, I've already looked into that. There are some divisions that don't even allow any brigades/attachments. I ran into this issue when doing the air-to-air and air to ground/surface missiles. The interceptors and MRFs are not allowed brigades/attachments which the missiles are. So I went through the code to see what effort it will take to fix this issue. The base code is there since the naval units currently use it but it's only allowing naval units. To add code so that other units can go through that procedure (are of code) is easier than doing code from scratch. Since the number of allowable attachments/brigades for naval units can be user configured within the ..\db\misc.txt file, I plan on adding every unit type allowable attachments/brigades to that file. So if a person wants Airborne to have the ability for a heavy armor brigade, they can edit themselves. Of course the release won't have this option for Airborne but the ability for the user to change it will be available.