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stevep

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Guys

One thing I find unrealistic is the virtual perfect knowledge of provincial details. For instance I can click on a province anywhere, even half the world away and in the centre of a continent and can get exact info on their infrastructure, fortification, air defences, as well as industrial and mineral wealth. It doesn't matter if I have no spies and its a repressive state in which everything is deeply secret.

I suspect that this is because there is a single copy of the map used for all powers and hence the auto knowledge of such info. Given the large number of theoretically playable powers if you had a separate one for each power as to what they can see it would probably means much more work. However since you can't see other powers military details until your in contact with them is it possible to also hide at least some of the provincial info in a similar fashion. It would make for a more realistic game and also a more challenging one for human players against the computer.

Steve
 
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Mr_B0narpte

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However since you can't see other powers military details until your in contact with them is it possible to also hide at least some of the provincial info in a similar fashion. It would make for a more realistic game and also a more challenging one for human players against the computer.
That is an incredible idea, completely agree!

You're kind of hinting at this, but this also applies to revolt risk and how even getting 0.5 dissent can reveal your military disposition to the world.
 
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yep, it is likely an issue with how the map information is handled... not sure we can do much if anything about it =(
 

Victor1234

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I'm very glad that AOD is being looked at again. I think AOD is a far superior wargame even though DH is more popular.

IMHO, the main strength of AOD is mechanics, the main weakness is graphics/map. Please, please have an even better map than DH, with prettier graphics, even if you change nothing else. This is what I feel mainly keeps people back from this game having more popularity, which the mechanics should totally justify.

Speaking of mechanics, I know you guys said you wanted to do a Cold War expansion, I think that's a frankly terrible idea. The HOI system isn't set up for it at all even as a wargame (look at how HOI4 still seems to be struggling with just WW2 partisans), espionage systems are notoriously hard to make fun in any game (which Cold War is known for primarily) and the diplomacy/societal pressures/economics need to be really fleshed out to make it worthy of the name, which again, would suit a starting base game series like Victoria much better.

Instead, what is the most popular type of HOI2 game? Multiplayer and Kaiserreich, if the AARs are any indication. I think the reason isn't because the central premise is that interesting but because it becomes boring to redo the same railroaded scenario every time. Germany gets bitter peace or not isn't nearly as exciting as Germany going in any of ~6 different directions and other countries reacting in a semi-coherent way, which the human players provide in multiplayer and the railroading interlinked events provide in Kaiserreich.

So what is the solution? I propose that the best way to turn your expansion into a coherent random scenario generator is instead of going forward to Cold War, you go backwards in the timeline. There are so many interesting pre-WW1 variations, partisan warfare is not a big deal, and with your talent for mechanics and logistics especially, you should be able to tweak your system so that you can get colonial struggles, pre-WW1 buildup of alliance blocks, WW1 and WW2 flowing in a mega campaign that produces different and interesting results.

If you can have ideology customization in there, something even as simple as how Victoria 1 had custom names and flags for multiple variants of a single country, ie, communist France, monarchy France, republican France, Napoleonic France, etc but they all shared the same tag or even better, random scenario mechanisms (ie, any country that goes over X% dissent goes into civil war, generates 2-3 rebel tags and big military powers get options to intervene, so it's not just Spanish & US civil war every game like in KH), it'll appeal to an even wider audience.

I would suggest the start date of 1881:
Germany and Italy are unified, but the Anglo-French colonial antagonism is ongoing, Germany is not menacing with a big navy yet, Austria & Germany have a chance to ally with Russia to keep their 3 Emperor's League going but soon can switch for historical alliance with Italy. Even removing ideology from it, from a gameplay perspective there are many different paths open to every country that there's very good replay value.

The main challenge would be developing a sort of crisis system through events to have flashpoints every say 5 years, that can cause a large WW1 type-war to break out or not. Fashoda, Morocco, Balkan Wars, random assassinations, there was lots going on in Europe at the time that could have turned into WW1 and I think it'd be fun to give players more. You can brute force it through many railroaded events like KH does, but the decision system from DH would be a big help here.
 
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IMO if we do a new map (which I have done map edits) then it would be the only thing we do as a release or enhancement pack. And it should be done be before any new scenarios, enhancements, events, changes, etc. due to the time it takes to draw the provinces and go through all events, country .inc files, etc. redoing all the provinces. It's a massive task to do the map, edit all the AOD files to use the new map provinces. It would take me months working 4 - 8 hours per day.

PB-DK would be the one to talk to on releases and the priority of items.
 
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stevep

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IMO if we do a new map (which I have done map edits) then it would be the only thing we do as a release or enhancement pack. And it should be done be before any new scenarios, enhancements, events, changes, etc. due to the time it takes to draw the provinces and go through all events, country .inc files, etc. redoing all the provinces. It's a massive task to do the map, edit all the AOD files to use the new map provinces. It would take me months working 4 - 8 hours per day.

PB-DK would be the one to talk to on releases and the priority of items.

Would agree here. Both in terms of the size of that task and that it makes sense not to change too many things at once. Far more likely to get serious problems or game imbalance changing too many things at the same time.
 
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Victor1234

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IMO if we do a new map (which I have done map edits) then it would be the only thing we do as a release or enhancement pack. And it should be done be before any new scenarios, enhancements, events, changes, etc. due to the time it takes to draw the provinces and go through all events, country .inc files, etc. redoing all the provinces. It's a massive task to do the map, edit all the AOD files to use the new map provinces. It would take me months working 4 - 8 hours per day.

PB-DK would be the one to talk to on releases and the priority of items.

It's just my opinion of course, but I think without a new map, there's no point in doing anything else besides small patches to the existing game, harsh as it may sound. It's clearly a lot of work, hence why several map mods have withered on the vine, but the original map is very dated and limits the gameplay in terms of encirclements, political boundaries, etc considerably. At least it's literally work anyone can do. Once the new map provinces are drawn and province IDs defined, the coordination with the other files to synch up everything to point to the right province is just a question of grunt work, not programming. You could even make that part of a community project or github or something to get more hands on it, with everyone who contributes above X amount getting a free key for the expansion and the dev team's only role is to test and merge the changes.

Alternatively, given the scope of the task, I've always wondered why the obvious talents of the HOI2 community were split up amongst 3 separate games. I'm not saying it'd be easy or what you guys want to do necessarily, but why not do a new expansion pack or release together with the DH guys?

DH is obviously more focused on graphics, the map is better than AOD (but not great IMO, the way only historical WW2 battle locations like Iwo Jima and Guadalcanal are broken into provinces and zoomed in are especially terrible, distances are way off, etc) and PB-DK mentioned their event system with decisions would be very hard to code in AOD. Meanwhile, DH has frankly terrible combat mechanics, production and logistics system, which is supposed to be the point of a wargame after all.

Why not do something together that plays to the strengths of each team/game and re-merges the community by doing an expansion together? I can see it now, the Arsenal of the Darkest Hour Democracy (ADHD) expansion as a new standalone game, bringing the best of both, with maybe an Iron Cross tech tree (if we can ever find out what made that so raved about) thrown in for good measure.
 
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Czarina Julie

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the main strength of AOD is mechanics, the main weakness is graphics/map.
I totally agree. I would love to do a map but it's the time. The work the 1.13 team does is done on their free time and we're a small team. I would love to do a map where if you select Terrain Mapmode you would only see this:
Capture.PNG
 
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well, one of the reasons we don't do ww1 for aod is that DH already does that... also we would need to have a completely new tech buildup if we went back into the 19th century, so that leaves us with either the interwar period or building on to the cold war... and since no hoi games have gone into the cold war that seemed to be the logical step forward, it would also require the least amount of changes to the game overall and not cause a lot of issues to the main campaign (1936)

now, we will be adding some techs like great war marines and mountaineers, some 1934 aircraft but nothing major in that aspect in order to not cause too much disruption to the play balance
 

PB-DK

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also, 1.13 is planned for 2022, mainly consisting of tech rework, some event and ai upgrades - planning on having a mostly open beta some time in spring once we got most of the bug hunt done...
 

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Giving an example of Iron Cross development, i would say, it wouldn't actually be bad if we add like 5-10 new provinces every patch. AoD has not so many events compared to Iron Cross, which has not more engaged manpower.

I would like to point out, that i don't expect any radical changes. For me HoI2 map is not that bad overall. If there were some tweaks in most vital regions, it would satisfy me enough, although surely i speak for myself. If we got more provinces in Spain, Eastern Germany, Western Poland, some in Italy, Japan & Korea it would be quite a huge step forward.

well, one of the reasons we don't do ww1 for aod is that DH already does that... also we would need to have a completely new tech buildup if we went back into the 19th century, so that leaves us with either the interwar period or building on to the cold war...
Mods could do the work actually, but improved map would help here also. If there was more space in tech layouts, then the way to eventually adding WWI would be easier. Nothing would be more fun, than using artillery bombardment much more :)
 

Victor1234

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well, one of the reasons we don't do ww1 for aod is that DH already does that... also we would need to have a completely new tech buildup if we went back into the 19th century, so that leaves us with either the interwar period or building on to the cold war... and since no hoi games have gone into the cold war that seemed to be the logical step forward, it would also require the least amount of changes to the game overall and not cause a lot of issues to the main campaign (1936)

now, we will be adding some techs like great war marines and mountaineers, some 1934 aircraft but nothing major in that aspect in order to not cause too much disruption to the play balance

DH doesn't do it well though, which is probably why it's not popular as a scenario. Aside from the questionable mechanics of how the scenarios actually plays through, the biggest problem is the scenario ends early, unlinked to the main campaign, meaning there's no possibility in DH of a WW1-interwar-WW2 playthrough. Even if you did that (which the DH Peace Without Victory mod tried), it'd be very popular, but adding pre-WW1 variety would make it incredible in my opinion by increasing replayability and randomness.

Although no main game has done the Cold War, lots of mods have done it even back in HOI2, and they really highlight the limitations of the base game. Aside from scripted special events for historical wars and standard tech upgrades (with nuclear ships that have long range, air cavalry that moves fast and ignores terrain penalties and better jet planes), there's not much to say about them, they are just the base campaign with different tag setups and starting OOB, but they don't really add anything new or interesting besides nukes, which are also a fairly poorly implemented mechanic in HOI2. There's not really much that a 2 mega alliance campaign can add to a base game with 3 alliances to begin with, which is maybe why the 3 block 'Nazis survive' Cold War variant seems to be modded even more than historical Cold War for these games.

If you really want to do Cold War though, the real challenge with HOI is the way province ownership and land detection work. Past Korea (1953), the conventional WW2 model really breaks down and to take the most popular example, there's no way to do the Vietnam wars, either the French or American one, with any degree of justice because the only tool is randomly scripting X masses of militia divisions to appear in provinces out of thin air every Y months, only to be slaughtered in one giant battle until the next event triggers, which is just an annoying rebel popup and not very fun.

Instead, the closest approximation of guerilla war that would make the Cold War style of warfare viable and interesting in HOI, is kind of the way seazones, destroyers and submarines work and transferring those mechanisms to land.

Destroyers (or any ASW tasked navy units) pass through seazones looking for subs, but sometimes they can be in the same seazone for weeks and never start combat just because the destroyers don't detect the subs. The sub has either a low visibility stat or the destroyer has a low sub detection stat or both factors work together to keep the sub hidden.

If you had rebel groups with an offmap province (to represent the way you can't just take Hanoi and annex the Vietminh as France) and programmed in land detection values for land units like there are for naval vessels, you could have something newer and interesting, say a new division type (guerilla) which is like militia but with low visibility, and another division type with weak combat stats but high land detection (recon/special forces).

You would have standard HOI2 divisions going from province to province on an area-type mission looking for the weaker but low visibility guerilla units, which they rarely find by themselves, and the guerillas can enter and leave combat with little org penalty. Battles would only ever start when the high land detection but weak recon units are used, and they have to hang on long enough in the combat for the regular HOI2 infantry or whatever division to arrive. Assuming all of Vietnam is not 3 provinces large, of course, the conventional force needs space to be spread out, as the guerilla unit can be anywhere.

Since the guerilla units retreat at will, they are never really destroyed and only lose strength while in combat, so the only way the conventional side wins is if they find and grind down the guerillas over repeated battles, while watching their own losses. The guerillas win the longer the war goes on and the larger conventional side losses they cause.

The problem with this though, is that the whole point of the guerilla warfare was about population and not territorial control, and the way province ownership works, only 1 side can control a province at a time, and controlling the province is controlling the population, which means either the guerilla manpower/reinforcements need to be gamey or the conventional side would never really control any province, which would also be weird.
 
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DH doesn't do it well though, which is probably why it's not popular as a scenario. Aside from the questionable mechanics of how the scenarios actually plays through, the biggest problem is the scenario ends early, unlinked to the main campaign, meaning there's no possibility in DH of a WW1-interwar-WW2 playthrough. Even if you did that (which the DH Peace Without Victory mod tried), it'd be very popular, but adding pre-WW1 variety would make it incredible in my opinion by increasing replayability and randomness.

Although no main game has done the Cold War, lots of mods have done it even back in HOI2, and they really highlight the limitations of the base game. Aside from scripted special events for historical wars and standard tech upgrades (with nuclear ships that have long range, air cavalry that moves fast and ignores terrain penalties and better jet planes), there's not much to say about them, they are just the base campaign with different tag setups and starting OOB, but they don't really add anything new or interesting besides nukes, which are also a fairly poorly implemented mechanic in HOI2. There's not really much that a 2 mega alliance campaign can add to a base game with 3 alliances to begin with, which is maybe why the 3 block 'Nazis survive' Cold War variant seems to be modded even more than historical Cold War for these games.

If you really want to do Cold War though, the real challenge with HOI is the way province ownership and land detection work. Past Korea (1953), the conventional WW2 model really breaks down and to take the most popular example, there's no way to do the Vietnam wars, either the French or American one, with any degree of justice because the only tool is randomly scripting X masses of militia divisions to appear in provinces out of thin air every Y months, only to be slaughtered in one giant battle until the next event triggers, which is just an annoying rebel popup and not very fun.

Instead, the closest approximation of guerilla war that would make the Cold War style of warfare viable and interesting in HOI, is kind of the way seazones, destroyers and submarines work and transferring those mechanisms to land.

Destroyers (or any ASW tasked navy units) pass through seazones looking for subs, but sometimes they can be in the same seazone for weeks and never start combat just because the destroyers don't detect the subs. The sub has either a low visibility stat or the destroyer has a low sub detection stat or both factors work together to keep the sub hidden.

If you had rebel groups with an offmap province (to represent the way you can't just take Hanoi and annex the Vietminh as France) and programmed in land detection values for land units like there are for naval vessels, you could have something newer and interesting, say a new division type (guerilla) which is like militia but with low visibility, and another division type with weak combat stats but high land detection (recon/special forces).

You would have standard HOI2 divisions going from province to province on an area-type mission looking for the weaker but low visibility guerilla units, which they rarely find by themselves, and the guerillas can enter and leave combat with little org penalty. Battles would only ever start when the high land detection but weak recon units are used, and they have to hang on long enough in the combat for the regular HOI2 infantry or whatever division to arrive. Assuming all of Vietnam is not 3 provinces large, of course, the conventional force needs space to be spread out, as the guerilla unit can be anywhere.

Since the guerilla units retreat at will, they are never really destroyed and only lose strength while in combat, so the only way the conventional side wins is if they find and grind down the guerillas over repeated battles, while watching their own losses. The guerillas win the longer the war goes on and the larger conventional side losses they cause.

The problem with this though, is that the whole point of the guerilla warfare was about population and not territorial control, and the way province ownership works, only 1 side can control a province at a time, and controlling the province is controlling the population, which means either the guerilla manpower/reinforcements need to be gamey or the conventional side would never really control any province, which would also be weird.
i agree, but as i said, we are limited to what we can do both in terms of time and code... guerillas can be modeled as partizans, yeah not a great solution but it is the best we can do without a massive amount of time(and code - we only have Julie for now) it would require...

this is basically aimed at people who would want to see things like a hot war popping off - with all the limitations that this will imply, basically we will add some shiny new toys (models) for the later years if your conquest goes on past the 64 end date...

so what about before ww2? well i have good news as that is something we are working on when we have the time AOD 2 will be focused on ww1 and if we can figure out how to do it properly, it will be able to run into ww2 or cover it at some point... :cool:
 
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Guys

One thing I find unrealistic is the virtual perfect knowledge of provincial details...since you can't see other powers military details until your in contact with them is it possible to also hide at least some of the provincial info in a similar fashion. It would make for a more realistic game and also a more challenging one for human players against the computer.

Steve
Great idea!
 
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Thank you to the devs.

this is basically aimed at people who would want to see things like a hot war popping off - with all the limitations that this will imply, basically we will add some shiny new toys (models) for the later years if your conquest goes on past the 64 end date...
Please take my money. I don't want any radical gameplay changes or a bajillion provinces and flavor events (Iron Cross is the perfect example of what not to do), I just want the extended tech tree and a few events to simulate potential WWIII triggers. Decisions and any other modability improvements would be nice.

An expanded map with detailed WWI/Cold War scenarios and events sounds like a whole project unto itself.
 
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Pioniere

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I agree we should not spam the game with events because too many new events would become a nuisance for the player must keep pressing the enter button. I know we will have events regarding the n.spain and Germany. We have an event where Germany can liberate an axis Serbia. Italy can claim Malta at some point. The tech tree will be expanded as mention before.
We will make an event for Ireland during the outcome of operation sealion.

I would like to see some events for minor nations like the Iberian pact between Portugal and n.Spain this would keep them one foot more away from the Axis. Several agreements signed between SPA and POR like trade, relations and guaranties.

I think we should be somewhat careful of the map since we should first listen to what the players enjoy about it.
 
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Mr_B0narpte

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I agree with all those who say a map improvement would be the greatest boost to the game, for me Arsenal of Democracy will remain a WW2 game. It's main limitations being the game engine and map design - with these two built upon I'd be over the moon!
 
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fabfeingold

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This is a great thread! Who would have guessed that AoD is still so much alive and kicking! I am happy to share everything that I have done for my mod - map etc. Will Hopefully post some form of development diary.
 
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Czarina Julie

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I agree we should not spam the game with events because too many new events would become a nuisance for the player must keep pressing the enter button
I agree totally. I ran into this while doing the Government and War Bond events while testing. I had to fix the offset (to every 120 days...4 months) because it was annoying the h3ll out of me. Also fixed the "Outlaw this or that" random events and other random events to set a local_flag that if the user/player answers yes, you only get the question once. IMO we need to look at 3 things with repeating (random and persistence) events:
  1. Offset - how often will it run
  2. deathdate - It seems Paradox loves to set the deathdate to to something beyond the end date of the scenario/game (i.e. 30 December 1999). Need to give realistic deathdates. It would help with the above issue and help the game overall without having to run unnecessary event triggers.
  3. local_flags and sleepevent - When we can use sleepevents so that the game isn't having to run event triggers. If we can't sleep the event (since it's sleeps it for every country) then at least add a local_flag to reduce the number of countries it does run for.
We will make an event for Ireland during the outcome of operation sealion.
This is already done. If any 2 connecting provinces in England or Scotland are taken by the enemy then UK will ask Ireland for help. Ireland then has 4 options:
  1. Accept UK's request for help and join the Allies - AI = 10%
  2. Request Sovereignty over Northern Ireland and receive certain techs and equipment from UK - AI = 50%
  3. Deny UK's request for help, remain neutral - AI = 25%
  4. Now is the time to strike - Take what is rightfully ours - AI = 15%
Also there are Irish events if the USA has to liberate Ireland on whether it's a United Ireland or Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland

I would like to see some events for minor nations like the Iberian pact between Portugal and n.Spain this would keep them one foot more away from the Axis. Several agreements signed between SPA and POR like trade, relations and guaranties.
I would like to see things like this for all of the minors and even non-minors and non-majors....more historical events. It seems that most of the minor and lower countries events are political events (elections, deaths, etc.) only.

I think we should be somewhat careful of the map since we should first listen to what the players enjoy about it.
Totally agreed!! I don't think we should make another version of DH. However, I do think some map changes should be made. Urban provinces should be made smaller with the areas around them becoming a different province. Example (and not sure if Nüremberg is urban) So the Nürmberg province would shrink to a small province remaining urban while the rest would become the new province of Bavaria. Maybe a Tyrol province, Pola, and the USA provinces west of the Mississippi River are way too large. But redoing the entire map to a Vicky or DH, no way.
 
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