The Free Company Tavern & "OOC" Thread: Book IV

[Derek Pullem]

On crossbowmen and pikes

I noticed that we are all having a bit of trouble combining the pikes and crossbows together. This was a problem that exercised armies in real life too but they eventually came up with a solution.

Rather than have the crossbowmen inside the squares they relied on the length of the pikes to shelter the missile troops.

There were two (poss. three) main tactics. Note that these tactics didn't really appear until the late 1400's so we are ahead of the curve again

First tactic was named "the horns". A square of crossbowmen would be placed at each of the four corners (or only the front face if not enough) of the pike phalanx. This way the formation was symetrical in all four faces and could rapidly respond to cavalry or an outflanking movement. If attacked the crossbowmen would take sheter under the pikes.

The second was known as a "sleeve" In this formation the crossbowmen formed the outer files on each flank and would deploy outwards to shoot and retire back to the phalanx if attacked. If there were sufficient shooters then the sleeves could be extended all around the phalanx although never more than 2-3 files deep as this could not be protected by the pike.

The early Swiss formations which employed large numbers of halberdiers would have trouble including shooters in the formation which was one of the reasons why they declined in numbers and popularity, eventually only being retained by the Sergeants and file leaders.

Swiss commanders of pike did not usually ride a horse - the Swiss did have some mounted knights and could call upon more feudal allies if needed but the infantry usually were led by a committee - even for very small units. This could - and did - lead to problems.

 

[Norgesvenn]

Right, I'm away one weekend for a liver transplant, and you guys go bananas, posting like three pages with well-written posts that I have to read, and all of a sudden I find myself in charge of infantry...

I've just skimmed through the posts. Very good stuff.

So, RJ and I now prepare the recruits? I suppose that's a good way for me to jump back into the story.

I found the tactical discussion very good and interesting. I've just bought Medieval: Total War, and haven't tried it yet... *drools*
so, your tactics may be employed by my chosen empire.

 

[Lord Durham]

Derek, I'm WAAAYYYYY ahead of you on this one. I wanted the confusion that comes with trying to introduce new tactics to be reflected in the posts, and everyone's done an admirable job

I'll be introducing my 'solution' later today, once I finish the graphics. You aren't far off the mark, though.

So Norg, what lesson do you derive from your absence? Right! Don't do it again!

 

[Rictus]

Qustion: how accurate and prevalant were time-keepers? This isn't so much a nitpick as an observation. For instance:

Vincent said to Toothy, 'met you out back in ten minutes.'

Would they have been able to measure that, or would it have been just a guess? Would everyone be using the sun as a measurement, or moon or whatever. Were clocks good and small enough to keep track of time like that?

I'm not calling for a drastic rewrite of the book so far (heavens forbid), but out of curiosity, how would something like be said and/or written.

Cheers


Good to have you back Norg mate. And does this mean, with a new liver you can now drink like a fish again?

 

[Syt]

From A Walk Through Time (A revolution in timekeeping):

In Europe during most of the Middle Ages (roughly 500 CE to 1500 CE), technological advancement virtually ceased. Sundial styles evolved, but didn't move far from ancient Egyptian principles.
During these times, simple sundials placed above doorways were used to identify midday and four "tides" (important times or periods) of the sunlit day. By the 10th century, several types of pocket sundials were used. One English model even compensated for seasonal changes of the Sun's altitude.

Then, in the first half of the 14th century, large mechanical clocks began to appear in the towers of several large Italian cities. We have no evidence or record of the working models preceding these public clocks, which were weight-driven and regulated by a verge-and-foliot escapement. Variations of the verge-and-foliot mechanism reigned for more than 300 years, but all had the same basic problem: the period of oscillation of the escapement depended heavily on the amount of driving force and the amount of friction in the drive. Like water flow, the rate was difficult to regulate.

Another advance was the invention of spring-powered clocks between 1500 and 1510 by Peter Henlein of Nuremberg. Replacing the heavy drive weights permitted smaller (and portable) clocks and watches. Although they ran slower as the mainspring unwound, they were popular among wealthy individuals due to their small size and the fact that they could be put on a shelf or table instead of hanging on the wall or being housed in tall cases. These advances in design were precursors to truly accurate timekeeping.

Which means, that it's difficult at night as there are no portable mechanical clocks yet. Hourglasses were also in use, and occasionally candle clocks which were more like timers, where lines on the candle marked how long it had been burning.

 

[TheF]

Yay! I finally managed to write a rather lengthy (well, I wager that this is my longest FC post yet) post! Sorry if it seems incoherent, but I was interrupted like 10 times because someone needed to use this computer .

Now, if only I could find a good book on archery practice.

 

[unmerged(6777)]

Re: On crossbowmen and pikes

Originally posted by Derek Pullem
I noticed that we are all having a bit of trouble combining the pikes and crossbows together. This was a problem that exercised armies in real life too but they eventually came up with a solution....

Thanks Derek.

I've been doing some deeper research into it as well so I had read most of what you posted in one place or another...I've just been having some fun playing off the others since it seemed like this was the sort of discussion that the commanders would be having - besides, getting the chance to tease Lochlan a bit is an opportunity not to be missed. You're definitely right about the Swiss NOT being very fond of working with bowmen in general. They f***ed up the Keils to no end when they tried it. If they absolutely had to have archers, these were usually deployed some distance away, at the wings. Keils were generally in no hurry to help them if they got into trouble either, poor blokes.

The Swiss army did employ cavalry at times, but I have very few references that mention how they were deployed or used during battle. I almost got the impression that they were mop up guys...though I suppose they may also have had a function of taking out the enemy archers (if any). It's strange to thing of it since some of the nearby German armies were quite heavy with cavalry (relatively speaking for the era).

I've encountered some conflicting information in my research into the Swiss Keils (pike formations) themselves. Many sources agree with your point re command by committee but those are typically sources that are discussing regular Swiss army tactics (particularly at the time that the Swiss are at war with Charles the Bold and are tromping all over Burgundy). It seems that the committee issue is one that seriously hampered what could otherwise have resulted in some pretty devastating victories for the Swiss and the ultimate anihilation of Charles' forces. Charles got off lucky, in essense. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to attend a general staff meeting on the eve before a battle. They must have gone on for hours and hours and hours...

The conflicting information, however, crops up when you begin to look at the mercenary Keils. According to several sources I've read, the structure is as follows:

- An overall commander of the Keil who negotiates with prospective employees, looks after the financial aspects of the company, and commands sthe men's loyalty in battle. He would often be mounted and rarely actually fought with the Keil. Instead, he would stay with the main command (if it was back, watching the battle) and would act as almost a messenger/liaison between the main command and the mercenary Keil. I also get the impression that he acted as quartermaster, etc... Kind of a jack-of-all-trades or an agent as much as anything.

I decided to modify this though - thus resulting in a somewhat non-historical Keil. For FC purposes it's a little more workable to me, makes it a less daunting task to write, and lets me have some fun. Renaud's the man, and his naminal rank is now as FC lieutenant. It's not a word the Swiss would have used, but I'll stick with it for the FC.

- Next you have a single "on site commander" type who was in charge of the Keil during the actual formation fighting. He was on foot and positioned at the exact centre of the square. His function was to keep an eye on what was going on around them, issue all main commands as far as marching, turning, etc....

Since Renaud is a FC lieutenant, I guess this guy'd be a sergeant, but I decided that since Renaud is acting ahistorically and will be issuing all battle orders to his men, I'd simply dump this guy from the Keil all together so he doesn't exist in Renaud's Keil at all.

- Next you've got four sub-commanders who were typically near the corners of the Keil and were responsible for keeping the square in the correct formation. Given the large number of men involved, their job was also to relay commands and keep things running smoothly. They were usually accomplished swordsmen or axemen and their exact location is as follows: if you imagine a dense square of swordsmen adn axemen, they are on the exact corners...now add several ranks of pikemen all around the the outside of the box of swords and axes to form a thicket of long sharp pointy things and you've got the picture.

I will be using these four men - as yet unnamed and unintroduced - in the FC thread and will be calling them my four "sergeants" so there's some more historical inaccuracy...

Anyway, I decided that deviating from RL historical Keils wouldn't be too much of a stretch - and it's not like I'm going waaaay out of line, so I hope that's okay with everyone. The primary reasons I've done it are because I think it will make it easier and more fun for me to interact with other FC members, and considerably easier for me to write. It is a bit of a cop out, but I've also got John VIII and my Janissary commander to write for so I was just easing my burden a bit (also in part because I do want to finish RRR sometime this decade).

Mea culpa on the butchery of historical Keils, and don't anyone go quoting anything you read in the FC as a source for an school essay or anything.

 

[EmprorCoopinius]

Well, since there weren't any Byzantine cavalry after 1387, some of us had to go the ahistorical route as well. Besides, if I have a horse that just means I can get away from the rampaging Turks that much faster.

 

[Faeelin]

Originally posted by EmprorCoopinius
Well, since there weren't any Byzantine cavalry after 1387, some of us had to go the ahistorical route as well. Besides, if I have a horse that just means I can get away from the rampaging Turks that much faster.

So long as it's not too unhistorical, I don't see a problem. Well, actually, ahistoricalism is fine.

 

[Craig Ashley]

Just a quick note for EC/Severus.

Huran Shur'tu's men also carry lances with them. In a pinch they can charge heavily armed infantry. The Mongols rarely did this in history, but carried lances just in case.

My 93 men have 308 horses. Most have 3 horses, some have 4. That was on the rolled paper Shur'tu handed Severus, but I wasn't able to work it into the post.

The Mongol army was organized by tens. 100 men were called a jughun. 10 men were called an arban. Shur'tu has added an additional level of organization. Dian Wu'tu, Zang Gao, and himself each command a third of the unit.

It's ahistorical, but based on the fact that Mongol armies were divided into threes at the highest level. Two groups of 10,000 cavalry on the flanks and one group of infantry in the center.

Also ,I will continue to refer to Gao and Wu'tu as Shur'tu's lieutenants even though they have no FC rank. Reasons will be explained later.

 

[Lord Durham]

J.Passeportout, this is getting better and better.

First camels, and now you have your wives and families with you? And how did they ever end up in Peking? And
Harry Seldon? What Foundation is he from?

BTW, just a suggestion, but could you put a line space after each line of dialogue? Running it together makes it a bit confusing. See how everyone else does it. Thanks...


While we're on the subject of ahistorical, the whole infantry/sleeve concept is quite accurate, in about 50 years from the time of this AAR

Substitute arquebus/muskets for crossbows and that's pretty close to the standard musket and pike tactics championed by the Spanish and others. Let's just say that we are both innovative and stuck in the past.

 

[Faeelin]

Ah, the Free Company. Bringing the Tercio to you, since 1438.

 

[unmerged(9046)]

Yikes. I am glad that I am not the thief. They better hope the Captain or Stroph find them. the alternatives do not sound like much fun.

 

[driftwood]

For those saying that camels can't go to Anatolia - the Ottoman Empire depended entirely on camels. When Murad I, in the mid-14th century, defeated Karaman, he took 10,000 camels as part of his booty. With all the camels, the entire Ottoman army, with artillery, baggage, and supplies, could move from Mesopotamia to Hungary in one season. Apparently camels were ubiquitous until the 20th century.

They were actually a hybrid of the Arabian and Bactrian breeds, able to haul twice as much weight as mules and extricate themselves from mud. To quote our beloved Sforza, how d'you like *them* apples?

driftwood

 

[Craig Ashley]

Is it me or did everyone get ripped off by Toothy? If these guys were that good, they wouldn't need to be running from an old farmer, would they?

Stroph, Toothy better hope so too.

Driftwood: Were they used for transport only? Or were there camelmen riding into battle?

 

[Auspend]

It helps that *everyone* seemed to be s***faced, and judging by how angry people are, it's going to be a one-time occurance. But they did say they got several months wages...

 

[Faeelin]

Originally posted by Auspend
It helps that *everyone* seemed to be s***faced, and judging by how angry people are, it's going to be a one-time occurance. But they did say they got several months wages...

Well, you don't normally think your fellow soldiers will steal from you.

And we're all wasted.

 

[Lord Durham]

Craig, you should reread Rictus' posts. He's crafted a very good pair of characters who possess both reason and motive for what they do. A successsful cutpurse doesn't neccessarily make him a successful robber, if you know what I mean. I think what he's added to the tale is brilliant, and has certainly got everyone reacting. Well done, Rictus


On the part about camels, I don't think the concern expressed is the fact where they can go, but how effective they are in war. Oddly enough, it's the Bedouins who bred and perfected the Arabian horse that is so prevelent throughout history. Camels were used for war back in the times of Mohammed, but were slow and clumsey compared to horses. It was Mohammed who directed that horses should be bred by the faithful (Moslems) so that they would be better prepared to gallop out and spread the Faith of Islam.

Note the mix of horse and camel below

 

[driftwood]

I think they were mostly used for transport because, like both Muhammad and LD said, horses are faster and less likely to spit at you for asking them to do something.

Everyone should remember that Rictus has dibs on catching the thief or not. Everyone else can try, but if you want to succeed, you should PM Rictus and coordinate with him.

driftwood

 

[Craig Ashley]

Craig, you should reread Rictus' posts. He's crafted a very good pair of characters who possess both reason and motive for what they do. A successsful cutpurse doesn't neccessarily make him a successful robber, if you know what I mean. I think what he's added to the tale is brilliant, and has certainly got everyone reacting. Well done, Rictus

Don't get me wrong. I have read the posts more than a few times. I agree both characters are very real and believable. The stoyline he introduced is very interesting and could be the first unifying event this group faces. What I was trying to comment on was the fact that everyone jumped on this storyline (a sign of a compelling hook). It seems like everyone in the FC got robbed. When I read the post the first time, I never expected such a wide response. I was surprised and pleased. My previous post was an attempt at a bit of good natured ribbing, nothing more.

Let me say it again, Rictus, good job. Everyone else, nice response.

Now let's catch a thief.