THE FOX AND THE LION: An Italian 1936 Modded TFH AAR

[tommylotto]

You see, this is why I find your AAR/mod to be so fascinating: the modeling of diplomatic events.
.....
Any thoughts?
--Khanwulf

I agree with what you are saying, but that might be beyond my humble talents as a modder. France never was suppose to join this war. France was suppose to drop an ultimatum, then back down. In the event that I drafted, I assigned a percentage chance for them to actually intervene if Mussolini calls their bluff. It was small. It was most likely France would back down, but when that unexpected thing happened on the play through for my AAR, I decided that was what I was looking for (the random and unexpected) I decided to go with it. I had hoped that the game mechanics would have built into it something that could deal with this situation and allow for peace, but so far, every time I check as Italy to see if I can offer peace to France, the game says that it is "impossible".

I agree that France would be looking for the exits right about now. The purpose was to save Yugoslavia, but it's too late for that. They lost a battleship and a cruiser, and their fleet can't seem to touch the Italian carriers. The UK is no help, and Greece has dropped out of the alliance. And all the while Germany is growing stronger... I guess I could draft a decision that triggers an event for France that gives them the option to offer peace to Italy. The question would be what would be the trigger and what would be the terms. There are triggers for national unity and dissent and even percentage of territory that is occupied, but I don't think that territory trigger can distinguish between home territory and overseas territory. I imagine, France would have no problem losing Djibouti, but would cry uncle if they lost Marseilles. And as for the terms of the peace, again, France might be willing to give up overseas possessions that were occupied by Italy (say, Djibouti or Tunisia), but would be loath to give up a chunk of France unless truly beaten.

As it is, Italy and France are just going to have to fight it out. I do, however, have some cool war goal events that have some effects on threat levels. And now, in TFH there is a possibility of majors DOWing a neutral Italy if its threat gets too high. So, the UK may get pulled into this war after all.

As for the Soviets, I did not want to get them too involved, just yet. They certainly had expansionist plans, but if they started asking for land concessions at this time, everyone would have gotten involved and WWII would have started. So, the event is triggered once a certain percentage of Bulgarian territory is occupied, and it just causes the USSR to demand assurance that there will be no annexation. If Mussolini is stupid enough to reject the ultimatum, it's war. If Mussolini accepts, Italy's war goal is changed to Puppet.

Please see below the military personnel in thousands by country and year. For a 1936 scenario, end of 1935 is relevant

It really looks like Italy blew its wad in the 30's...

Hi tommylotto I love your work! Any chance to cooperate with http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?531-The-Historical-Plausibility-Project ?

Believe it or not, I play on a Mac, and in the past I have had trouble getting HPP to work because they make map changes (It's technical...). I really like their mod and really respect their intellectualism and philosophy. However, I also enjoy additional and special and nation specific units that the HPP guys are philosophically resistant to. I agree with them on what really makes a unit elite, but I still like cool counters for different units. And I really like the new combined arms system in TFH that kinda goes in a different direction than HPP was going. It was the lack of an ICE and HPP mod for FtM that got me toying with modding. The HPP guys are certainly more than welcome to use any of my ideas (or even the work), as I have certainly borrowed stuff from them -- (naming conventions in historical OOB's). I agree with you that they could use how I handle the Regia Marina at game start, and I have never ever liked the HPP early year guarantees that made an Italian Balkan strategy an absolute impossibility. My system of decisions and events that trigger ultimatums and brinksmanship is more historical and much more exciting to play. However, my work is only partially done -- and only from the perspective of the Italy player. Similar events would need to be written to check possible Hungarian expansion, for example, and for any other nation that the player might want to play and grow from humble beginnings to a new world power. (In another thread Zog is taking over the world!) However, the Italian Balkan strategy is so common in Hoi3 and so implausible how it is dealt with in both Vanilla and in HPP, that I think my work would be a worthy addition to at least cover that one loophole. But even Italy could use some more of these decision and event chains to cover more "what if's" What if Italy attacked Spain? Turkey? Austria before the Anschluss? Czechoslovakia? Poland? A wise modder might ask where does it stop, and is it worth it. Since I like playing Italy and fighting in the Balkans, it was worth it to me. Those who just like to march their panzer to Moscow might not agree.

Well done! I can't believe there are so many wonderful updates and we are still in the first 3 pages. This AAR definitely needs more love.

The Faget bergamasque was very well done. ANd the French Fleet must be on its last legs. Surely peace is in sight.

Thanks for reading, but love is way overrated...

He who carries too far the desire to make himself beloved will soon become contemned, if he deviates in the slightest degree from the true path; and the other, who aims at making himself feared, will make himself hated, if he goes in the least degree too far; and our nature does not permit us always to keep the just middle course.
- Niccoló Machiavelli,

 

[Cardus]

It really looks like Italy blew its wad in the 30's...

Sorry but I don't understand. What do you mean?

Can I get your mod over the HPP mod?

 

[Cybvep]

I must say that this AAR is awesome. I love the attention to detail and the way you combine parts of various screenshots to create images for the AAR . Also, it's refreshing to see an Italian AAR where the conquest of the Balkans is not a pushover.

 

[tommylotto]

Sorry but I don't understand. What do you mean?

Your stats were interesting when looking at Italy's military expenditures (whatever that metric means). It was sky high in '36 and '37, but was lower in '38, lower still in '39, lower still in '40 (even though they were in the war), lower still in '41 (even though they were losing), and lower still in '42 (as the Allies were approaching the homeland). It's no wonder they were stuck with antiquated equipment.

Can I get your mod over the HPP mod?

No. You would need to know your way around modding to adapt the files. The units and technologies are totally different and would not work. The model levels are different, so the OOB's would need to be adjusted. The events and decisions could work, so long as the same event numbers are not used in HPP for some other event. The decisions that load units could work, but they load mini oob's and those oob's would need to be changed to correspond with HPP's model levels. For example, my Italian carriers are level I carriers which in my game are the same as the Bearn. With more levels to their naval technologies it would be possible to distinguish between these conversions and that French carrier.

 

[Jagdpnzr]

Blew its wad...that's an interesting way to put it

 

[red_KLG]

Great update !! I really like your naval encounters, but you have to start sinking something soon

 

[Cardus]

Your stats were interesting when looking at Italy's military expenditures (whatever that metric means). It was sky high in '36 and '37, but was lower in '38, lower still in '39, lower still in '40 (even though they were in the war), lower still in '41 (even though they were losing), and lower still in '42 (as the Allies were approaching the homeland). It's no wonder they were stuck with antiquated equipment.

The reason is because of
1) The Ethiopian war
2) The Spanish war which cost most of the modern weapons and a huge huge huge amount of money so when Mussolini announced that he wanted to enter in the war Badoglio e some others said that the country was not barely prepared for it.
3) Italy expanded the industrial production and output at impressive pace in WWI and in the 1950s/1960s when the country became the second country by industry after Germany (but before France and UK). This couldn't happen in WWII because the country (which had no resources) was literally strangled and it couldn't expand the production. I could elaborate much more on this but for the time being I would suggest to have a look at the IC I have posted and to compare it with the IC in game.

No. You would need to know your way around modding to adapt the files. The units and technologies are totally different and would not work. The model levels are different, so the OOB's would need to be adjusted. The events and decisions could work, so long as the same event numbers are not used in HPP for some other event. The decisions that load units could work, but they load mini oob's and those oob's would need to be changed to correspond with HPP's model levels. For example, my Italian carriers are level I carriers which in my game are the same as the Bearn. With more levels to their naval technologies it would be possible to distinguish between these conversions and that French carrier.

Ok. Understood. I like very much your counters

 

[tommylotto]

I like very much your counters

Those counters would work with any mod. The files just need to go in the tfh/gfx/mapitems/mapcounters folder.

Like any of this, it started slowly. I had to modify an ICE counter for a new unit I created. Once I figured out how the counters worked, and how to make them in GIMP (with an assist from Apple's Preview Application), I could not stop. I had to remake all the counters, even infantry. Obviously, I prefer the old school look of the Avalon Hill board games, but there is no reason the lines can't be three dimensional with a slight shadow. And making the distinctive counters for the special units was real fun. Soviet Guards, Imperial Guards, Gurkha, Alpini, Alpines, Bersaglieri, Rangers, USMC, CCNN and those other guys all get fancy new counters.

BTW for anyone who might have downloaded the mod in the past few weeks, there was a fatal typo in the Turkish OOB that prevented it from loading. That has been fixed.

 

[Cardus]

Those counters would work with any mod. The files just need to go in the tfh/gfx/mapitems/mapcounters folder.

Like any of this, it started slowly. I had to modify an ICE counter for a new unit I created. Once I figured out how the counters worked, and how to make them in GIMP (with an assist from Apple's Preview Application), I could not stop. I had to remake all the counters, even infantry. Obviously, I prefer the old school look of the Avalon Hill board games, but there is no reason the lines can't be three dimensional with a slight shadow. And making the distinctive counters for the special units was real fun. Soviet Guards, Imperial Guards, Gurkha, Alpini, Alpines, Bersaglieri, Rangers, USMC, CCNN and those other guys all get fancy new counters.

BTW for anyone who might have downloaded the mod in the past few weeks, there was a fatal typo in the Turkish OOB that prevented it from loading. That has been fixed.

1) Could you please add to your signature the link to your mod? I would like to give a try to it this weekend
2) In my opinion a unit (e.g. CCNN) should have its own counters independently on the division's type (e.g. militia). Is there any chance to convert a CCNN from militia to infantry keeping the same counters?

 

[tommylotto]

The CCNN are their own type of unit with their own counters. In the screenshots they are the units with the three stacks of fasces. They are militia and fight like militia. (Although, the semi-motorized regiments are afforded the infantry combined arms designation). However, they can be made to be better than normal militia by researching a new technology called fascist militia militarization. If you continue to research this tech, your CCNN will improve in every respect better than normal militia, but will still be inferior to regular infantry. See my AAR when the CCNN were whipped by the Greeks and Bulgarians, but they are more capable than regular militia. Also, after researching 4 levels of fascist militia militarization, you unlock technologies that enable you to build, loyalist infantry, loyalist motorized, loyalist mechanized and loyalist armor. These units get their own white on black (as opposed to black on white) counters. These SS-like units (or GGFF-like units) are just like regular military units with a slight morale boost, and your long-suffering CCNN can be upgraded to any of these units once they become available. Currently, in my AAR, I have level 4 fascist militia militarization researched and am currently researching loyalist infantry, but the key is loyalist armor. Then any of your CCNN regiments can be turned into a Corazzata M tank unit.

In honesty, game-wise, you would be better off just sticking with regular units, but this system adds flavor and seems realistic considering the rivalry and politics between the regular military and the blackshirts. Plus you start off with bunches of blackshirt units, you might as well use them.

Note the Germans start in the same boat. Their SS units are just militia type units but they start the game with more levels of fascist militia militarization and can easily start unlocking the regular units.

 

[Cardus]

That's ok but I would really love the option to upgrade CCNN to regular units (infantry/mot/etc.) or to loyalist units without any research as it's just a matter of ordance/arms not a matter of research. Do you disagree?

 

[tommylotto]

Well the research is just an abstraction for the allocation of leadership to improve training procedures -- more of a doctrine than a technology.

 

[Cardus]

Well the research is just an abstraction for the allocation of leadership to improve training procedures -- more of a doctrine than a technology.

If a unit can fight better because of doctrines/leadership then you improve by research the morale. If the unit has better training than needs more time to in the building queue and mybe you need additional research. But if a unit can fight better because of better arms (e.g. the same arms of regular infantry) you don't need any research. Correct?

 

[tommylotto]

Well, for starters, all infantry, militia and cavalry type units in my mod share the same 4 equipment techs -- none of this nonsense of needing 4 separate techs for just cavalry. The better units just improve more -- they get more of the better stuff and can put them to better use.

Here are some pictures of the technology screens:

As you can see, I just combined some techs and repurposed others.

The CCNN and SS techs are on the armor screen. I just did away with super heavy armor. Sorry if you like that unit. I didn't.

And, of course, some of this is driven by the mechanics of the game. Unless you want a unit to be available from game start, you need a technology to be researched to unlock the unit. I do not want Italy to start off being able to build competent CCNN division, because historically they performed below par. If Italy is going to get CCNN divisions that perform like some of the better SS divisions, it is possible, but they are going to have to invest leadership into it.

 

[Cardus]

Ok. You definitively convinced me at least for the moment
I'm going to tell you after my test this weekend

 

[mattoden]

I'm having issues with the some of the unit counters not showing up. Not really sure why. Your new HQ counter shows up as well as the alpini (non standard) counter. But many other new unit counters don't show up for me (costal garrison/the costal support, pack arty, and pretty much all of the non standard units). It is pretty strange because normally if there was something wrong with the install none of the new counters would work. I have checked the all of the gfx folders and all the missing counters are in there and look like they should when I open them in Gimp...Is anyone else having this issue?

 

[Cardus]

I have downloaded the pack but where I can find the instructions for the installation?

EDIT
I have extracted the files and copied them in the directory mod. I stated the game with a tick on your mod but I cannot see any counter in game. I checked this directory D:\Games\Paradox Interactive\Hearts of Iron III\mod\TMF_TFH_MOD\gfx\mapitems\counters and your counters are there. I deleted the MACOSX directory. Can be this the issue? If not any clue?

 

[tommylotto]

I assume you are on a PC. You got me to do what I loath to do, I fired up Windows through Bootcamp on my Mac and loaded my mod on my PC version of the game. There was a counter problem on the PC version that obviously is not there on the Mac Version. I sorta fixed it. My counters and small counters work, but my beautiful big map counters do not work. The game is perfectly playable and my counters are better than the mapcounters in Vanilla, but still I am really proud of those big map counters.

If you download my mod folder as of now, put the contents of that folder into your tfh/mod folder, everything should work with the exception of the big map counters when you scroll all the way in on the map. I will try and find out what is causing this. I'm sure it is something frustratingly simple.

Edit: So, apparently, under

Game Options: Video

there is a slider labeled "Counter Dist."

In my PC version of the game this slider defaulted to all the way to the left. This prevented the map counters from showing up no matter how far you zoomed in.

If you put this slider somewhere in the middle, the big counters finally show up when you zoom in.

 

[Cardus]

I assume you are on a PC. You got me to do what I loath to do, I fired up Windows through Bootcamp on my Mac and loaded my mod on my PC version of the game. There was a counter problem on the PC version that obviously is not there on the Mac Version. I sorta fixed it. My counters and small counters work, but my beautiful big map counters do not work. The game is perfectly playable and my counters are better than the mapcounters in Vanilla, but still I am really proud of those big map counters.

If you download my mod folder as of now, put the contents of that folder into your tfh/mod folder, everything should work with the exception of the big map counters when you scroll all the way in on the map. I will try and find out what is causing this. I'm sure it is something frustratingly simple.

Your mod is working fine. I'm doing a little test. Thank you

EDIT
Why I can't release as a puppet the AOI?
Why I can't build forts from day 1?

 

[mattoden]

I assume you are on a PC. You got me to do what I loath to do, I fired up Windows through Bootcamp on my Mac and loaded my mod on my PC version of the game. There was a counter problem on the PC version that obviously is not there on the Mac Version. I sorta fixed it. My counters and small counters work, but my beautiful big map counters do not work. The game is perfectly playable and my counters are better than the mapcounters in Vanilla, but still I am really proud of those big map counters.

If you download my mod folder as of now, put the contents of that folder into your tfh/mod folder, everything should work with the exception of the big map counters when you scroll all the way in on the map. I will try and find out what is causing this. I'm sure it is something frustratingly simple.

Edit: So, apparently, under

Game Options: Video

there is a slider labeled "Counter Dist."

In my PC version of the game this slider defaulted to all the way to the left. This prevented the map counters from showing up no matter how far you zoomed in.

If you put this slider somewhere in the middle, the big counters finally show up when you zoom in.

so far no luck with me adjusting the slider you spoke of...I will post some screen shots...The non vanilla counters dont show up at any distance. I have tried moving the slider at various locations from left to right like you mentioned. Screen shots to follow. And yes I am on PC.