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Zsar1

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Libya is pretty useless in-game, and we cannot really justify to increase its economic importance.
Neither is it of strategic value, as hostile landings in Italy proper are naturally more easy to dispatch with real damage to the enemy (disbanding divisions vs. retreating ones, landing divisions vs. normally attacking ones).

I would like to introduce some artificial importance to the place, in order to properly represent its political value as a prestige project.

To that end, losing it should hurt:
Loss of one of Bengazi, Tobruk, Tripoli:
Code:
event = {
  id = 
  random = no
  persistent = yes
  country = ITA

  trigger = {
    NOT = { control = { province = 919 data = -1 } } # Tobruk
  }

  name = "Loss of the fortress of Tobruk"
  desc = "The small village of Tobruk had seen continuous growth in importance during the italian colonial administration of the Fourth Shore. The eastern end-point for the Via Balbia and one of only three deepwater ports on the libyan shore, it also became the position of a strong fortress against british incursions from Egypt and since the declaration of the 'Quarta Sponda', the Fourth Shore, it was considered integral part of the italian mainland.
Loss of this strategically important position for the war in North Africa also means a great loss of face for the regime.
Historically, the fortress had been captured on january 22nd 1941 with little resistance, yielding about 25.000 italian prisoners. It would then take over a year of siege and three more battles until the german Africakorps managed to recapture it."

  style = 0
  picture = "military_parade" # placeholder

  date = { hour = 12 day = 0 month = january year = 1936 }
  offset = 31
  deathdate = { hour = 14 day = 29 month = december year = 1954 }

  action_a = {
    name = "The fortress is lost."
    command = { type = dissent value = 2 } # individually minor hit
    command = { type = industrial_modifier which = total value = -1 } # some sting to it; demotivated population
    command = { type = local_setflag which = lost_Tobruk }
    command = { type = trigger which =  value = 1 } # Loss of the Fourth Shore
  }
}
Losing all of it should really hurt:
Loss of the whole Fourth Shore:
Code:
event = {
  id = 
  random = no
  persistent = yes
  country = ITA

  # triggered by all of the aforementioned
  trigger = {
    local_flag = lost_Bengazi
    local_flag = lost_Tobruk
    local_flag = lost_Tripoli
    event =  # Quarta Sponda
  }

  name = "Loss of the Fourth Shore"
  desc = "The 'Quarta Sponda', the Fourth Shore, had been declared integral part of the italian mainland in 1940 by Benito Mussolini. At that time, Italy had made large investments into infrastructure, new settlements and prestige constructions along the libyan coast, which are now lost to foreign occupation. Some such are the Via Balbia, a 1822 km long highway connecting Tripoli and Tobruk, the Arco dei Fileni, an 31 metres high travertine arch overspanning said highway at the border between Tripolitania and Cyrenaica, and the Mellaha Lake racing track, venue for the prestigous Gran Premio di Tripoli, the 'Ascot of motor racing circuits'.
Now 400 km of constructed railways, 4000 km of highway and 37 colonial settlements are lost to foreign occupation. 110.000 italian colonists had to be evacuated to european Italy as fugitives."

  style = 0
  picture = "military_parade" # placeholder

  action_a = {
    name = "The Fourth Shore is lost."
    command = { type = dissent value = 4 } # major defeat; total gain of 10 dissent
    command = { type = industrial_modifier which = total value = -2 } # total loss of -5%; demotivated population
    # loss of native troops
    command = { type = remove_division which = 12036 value = 1078 } # 1st Libyan Division 'Sibelle'
    command = { type = remove_division which =  value =  } # 2nd Libyan Division 'Pescatori'
    # costs of the evacuation; values chosen arbitrarily
    command = { type = supplies value = -100 }
    command = { type = oilpool value = -200 }
  }
}
But there should be at least slight upsides from having it:
2nd Libyan Division
Code:
event = {
  id = 
  random = no
  country = ITA

  trigger = {
    NOT = {
      local_flag = lost_Bengazi
      local_flag = lost_Tobruk
      local_flag = lost_Tripoli
    }
    # donator of divisional core
    division_exists = { type = 12036 id = 1078 } # Divisione Libia (should be renamed to 1a Divisione libica 'Sibelle')
    # costs for additional equipment
    supplies = 100 # arbitrarily chosen number; cost should be considerably below equivalent of division
    # costs for the officer compartment
    manpower = 5 # arbitrarily chosen number
  }

  name = "The second libyan Division"
  desc = "" # later

  style = 0
  picture = "military_parade" # placeholder

  date = { hour = 12 day = 1 month = march year = 1940 }
  offset = 31
  deathdate = { hour = 14 day = 29 month = december year = 1954 }

  action_a = {
    name = "Form the 2nd libyan Division"
    command = { type = supplies value = -50 } # arbitrarily chosen number, absolute of which smaller than in the trigger
    command = { type = manpowerpool value = -1 } # arbitrarily chosen number, absolute of which smaller than in the trigger; represents officers only
    command = { type = damage_division which =  value =  where = -99 } # 2a Divisione libica 'Pescatori', 1939 6bn Reserve unbrigaded
    command = { type = activate_division which =  value =  where = 932 when = 0 } # activate in Tripoli (true place of original deployment currently unknown)
    # would gain some units from the 1935 OOB of the 1st division, namely the 2nd and 6th libyan battalions
    # a total of 8 libyan battalions supposedly existed; did not yet track down the two remaining ones
  }
}
I also contemplate giving ITA a slight discount on CAV brigades while it holds Libya to account for their Spahi and Savari troops.

The Fourth Shore as a political object warrants an event itself:
Code:
event = {
  id = 
  random = no
  country = ITA

  trigger = {
    NOT = {
      local_flag = lost_Bengazi
      local_flag = lost_Tobruk
      local_flag = lost_Tripoli
    }
    # Allowing for a bit of leeway in regards to controlled provinces: declaration may be seen as a means to mobilise the population
    # while hostile incursions are not yet threatening.
    # Once any of the strongholds has fallen however, the declaration would be too risky in the face of a subsequent defeat.
  }

  name = "Quarta Sponda"
  desc = "In early 1939 the shoreline of italian Libya was declared an integral part of Italy proper, its fourth shore or 'Quarta Sponda'. Italian colonial efforts had up to this point been concentrated on encouragement and support for ethnically italian settlers, but thereafter programs to facilitate settlement building (resulting in 10 newly founded villages by 1940) and to provide improved medical care and education to the indigenous population tentatively started to move into the focus of the Libyan Colonization Society. Literate arabs were now able to acquire a limited form of italian citizenship, allowing them to join the Partito Nazionale Fascista and form a muslim branch, the Associazione Mussulmana del Littorio."

  style = 0
  picture = "military_parade" # placeholder

  date = { hour = 12 day = 9 month = january year = 1939 } # historical date
  offset = 31
  deathdate = { hour = 14 day = 29 month = december year = 1954 }

  action_a = {
    name = "We are richer for our muslim Italians"
    command = { type = addcore which = 916 } # Bardia
    command = { type = addcore which = 917 } # Forte Capuzzo
    command = { type = addcore which = 918 } # Forte Maddalena; disputable
    command = { type = addcore which = 919 } # Tobruk
    command = { type = addcore which = 920 } # Derna
    command = { type = addcore which = 921 } # Mechili
    command = { type = addcore which = 922 } # Msus
    command = { type = addcore which = 923 } # Barca
    command = { type = addcore which = 924 } # Bengazi
    command = { type = addcore which = 925 } # Agedabia
    command = { type = addcore which = 929 } # Sirte
    command = { type = addcore which = 930 } # Homs
    command = { type = addcore which = 932 } # Tripoli
    command = { type = addcore which = 933 } # Zuara
  }
}
so that ITA, like the other colonial nations, need not have cores on its colonies.

While the values involved are typically going to be fairly small, considering that this is not mighty GER or ENG, they should end up sufficiently large to be of consideration to an ITA player.
As presented in the loss event examples above, also a nice opportunity to provide some not-so-well-known history. The Arco dei Fileni for example was destroyed in 1970 and is probably a rather unknown monument.
 
Last edited:

Zsar1

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I have briefly considered events for the Tripoli-Bengazi-Railroad, but unlike similar events we already have in CORE this case is a bit more complicated, as it is a wartime construction and much more exposed than the comparable Burma Road.

Here is a draft of an initial event:
Code:
event = {
  id = 
  random = no
  persistent = yes
  country = ITA

  trigger = {
    NOT = {
      local_flag = lost_Bengazi
      local_flag = lost_Tobruk
      local_flag = lost_Tripoli
      local_flag = started_Tripoli-Bengazi-Railroad
    }
    control = { province = 924 data = -1 } # Bengazi
    control = { province = 925 data = -1 } # Agedabia
    control = { province = 929 data = -1 } # Sirte
    control = { province = 930 data = -1 } # Homs
    control = { province = 932 data = -1 } # Tripoli
  }

  name = "The Tripoli-Bengazi Railroad"
  desc = "In august 1941 construction began on a 1.040 km long railway line to connect Libyas two largest cities, Tripoli and Bengazi.
Historically, its construction would be cancelled after just 18 km of completed rail after the failed invasion of Egypt had led to the destruction of the italian 10th army in early 1942 and allowed for a virtually unhindered british advance into Libya."

  style = 0
  picture = "military_parade" # placeholder

  date = { hour = 12 day = 21 month = march year = 1941 } # spring 1941; historically august
  offset = 31
  deathdate = { hour = 14 day = 29 month = december year = 1954 }

  action_a = {
    name = "Start construction now"
    ai_chance = 50 # going to tweak these a bit later; should usually take until summer
    command = { type = free_supplies value = -1 } # value needs research; Total cost on completion should equal 5x5=25 Infrastructure builds.
    command = { type = local_setflag which = started_Tripoli-Bengazi-Railroad }
    command = { type = trigger which =  value =  } # Railroad section completed
  }
  action_b = {
    name = "Mayhap later"
    ai_chance = 50
    command = { } # do nothing
  }
  action_c = {
    name = "Never"
    ai_chance = 0
    command = { type = sleepevent which =  } # this
  }
}
It would seem proficient to have completions in steps for an end-total of 10 points of Infrastructure per province (as seen on the Wuhan-Guangzhou-Railroad event 480140).
As usually and historically-correctly the italian suppy depot is located at Tripoli, this would provide a notable upgrade to fighting capability in the east, if too late for the initial offensive - which however did historically stall from supply difficulties.

The event chain has to be able to deal with suspended and continued construction due to hostile occupation. Assuming a linear progression of the line, cancellation should until almost the very end be a simple affair, as the amount of consumed supplies would remain constant during that time.
 
Last edited:

dec152000

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Hi,

Generaly agree as is. I think the IE hits are OTT considering what was going on in Libya economically. IMO the Dissent is plenty of a cost. Boni for building units also seems to much. the cost is in the equipment and ITA seldom is short MP.

mm
 

Zsar1

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Well, dissent hits even of greater proportion would not really deter a human player, given the advantage of leaving Libya to the Allies and instead landing east of Alexandria.

A total IE hit of 5% however should be quite painful to the weak italian economy. At first I considered penalties to combat effectiveness, but decided against them, as those would also interfer with recapture.
I do admit that IE is not the best variable to manipulate here. What I want is an effect that on one hand does not impact the ability to retake Libya (assuming that ample forces were still available), but that on the other hand is sufficiently deterring to make abandoning Libya a truly hard choice and even then its recapture a goal that feels worthwhile.

If this were Europa Universalis, I would probably use prestige penalties for the strongholds and a stability drop for losing the whole thing. As is, mayhap espionage penalties are a good alternative to IE.

AI ITA is seldomly short on MP because it usually drops IC from resource shortages. With the changes prepared for the 0.70 series, this should change.
Certainly, when I play ITA, I am always horribly short on MP; but then, I do not exactly play "Graziani-style".

It is good to read that you improved this part of the AI. I am eager to have a look at it.
 

dec152000

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Hi,

Honestly if a player wants to bail out of Libya I think that we just need to stick to measures that seem historical. Dissent would be number one. Maybe some Ministers/Leaders/TT could also be impacted.

As for invading east of Alexandria that really wasn't a strong historical option. Libya was valuable as the viable threat to the Suez Canal. Not sure what we could do to amplify those realities in game.

mm
 

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Would it be more agreeable if I removed the IE penalty from losing individual strongholds but kept it on losing the whole of Libya? For mayhap a 2% total?
I am open to suggestions for other values that would be fit to be penalised; a set of plentiful individually insignificant penalties seems to be a much better idea than any one big modifier.

For motivation, Libya is pretty full of prestige projects, which in-game already exist and have been paid for before the scenario start, but which would still disconcert on loss.
I am trying for a "We spent so much on this and you just lost it!" feeling.

--

Certainly that invasion could not really have happened historically; there is little that can be done about that, however, other than binding italian forces elsewhere. If some motivation can be found to nudge towards an attack on Greece, together with the desire to hold onto Libya, this should quite efficiently limit the capability to press such an advance.
 

dec152000

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Hi,

I just don't see this effecting the ITA economy much at all. What it would do is mess with the political and military command structure. Abandoning it looks week and losing it with a fight looks ineffective. either would shake confidence. So we need something that works for that.

mm
 

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Well, IE affects both map->effective IC and resource extraction, so a 5% loss, while not exactly crippling would be a nuisance.

When I chose that modifier, I justified it to myself from the "passive resistance" angle: Many contemporary sources from germany take note of people (including logistical officers in the army) hoarding resources (foodstuffs obviously, but also at times such unlikely things as artillery ordnance, as that could be traded around within the army) instead of sending them on their proper way. The same behaviour is well known from the late GDR economy: Most thinks in short supply could be black marketed with the right contacts (here the list of unlikely contraband includes ceramic tiles and virtually every intermediate good imaginable).

With these examples in mind, I would assume that a loss of face of high institutions encourages corruption below them. When people lose faith in victory, they would start to focus more on their personal gain.

--

Command structure is hard to manipulate with the tools we have. Historically, Graziani lost his post after losing the 10th army during Operation Compass. But who will be in his position in-game? This information is not retrievable and I have never been a fan of events such as the suicide of Udet (when Udet has nothing to do with the Battle of Britain, which does not fail, while the push for Moscow rolls unhindered).

Similarly, I do not think that we can do something like "remove the current Chief of the Army".

Slider moves may be a possibility... mayhap one step away from Hawk lobby or Interventionism.
 

dec152000

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Hi,

The loss of economic efficiency you are referring to seems to resemble in game Dissent. It certainly burns up IC for all the cG required to remove it. While a player may just leave it alone the AI will spend the IC to remove it.

Impacting TT and Ministers seems likely. It wouldn't be hard to identify the CoA/CoS and force remove them via event. This causes a nice short term disruption in AoD as the new Minister takes office. Sliders also seems like a great place to work as some of those moves are almost always undesired.

mm
 

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Dissent is good, as it affects so much - including combat efficiency - but it is also very easy to reduce. ITA should be able to lose >0.1 per day.
I would prefer an effect that actually lingers until the colony is retaken.

Not yet sold on minister change, but the rest look like good ideas: Mayhap lose a skill point on doctrine tech teams (-cost for -progress: may simulate reduced authority) and regain it on reconquest. A single slider move may as well be permanent. A combination of these would probably suffice, given that ITA already starts in a weak position in both regards.

... Going to update the draft, when I get a moment of time.
 

dec152000

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Hi,

Another option would be shifting an NI. Possibly to a customized one. On that note ITA could start with a custom NI(s) rather than the current ones. Parochial and Conformism are ballpark. But Italian Facism obviously had some Imperial elements to it that aren't really getting modeled properly.

mm
 

Dichromate

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Yeah I always kinda thought - just by the name, not necessarily the effects, that 'frustrated imperialist outlook' or whatever it was pretty much described Japan and Italy perfectly.
 

dec152000

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Hi,

Yes, those could be used for both ITA and JAP as well. Parochial is how they are currently set up and that fits them reasonably well also. The thing is neither is a really perfect fit. For Frustrated Expansionist I don't see ITA desrving the Organization bonus so much. With JAP the whole thing fits pretty well. OTOH, the whole PArochial version fits them very well also.

mm
 

Zsar1

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I have wondered recently whether these National Identities should not change for a couple of countries in a couple of circumstances. JAP and ITA could at some point switch to Imperial, the "Frustrated Expansionists" should probably switch to something else once they actually succeed in their desired expansion (GER post-France, HUN gaining SLO, winning the Vienna Arbitrations).
... Mayhap that warrants its own thread.
 
Last edited:

dec152000

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Hi,

We already do have a number of NI shifts built in. Most involve nations getting more aggressive once they mobilize. But I could see some nations like HUN getting less aggressive. OTOH, ROM might be going the other way. This would be a good area for some effort.

mm
 

Zsar1

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I would like to include Tunisia as a stretch goal for ITA in the war before Vichy. Basically, if ITA manages to take every single province of Tunisia, they shall keep it similar to their optional gains in Corsica and Savoy.
If even a single province is amiss, they lose it.

I already have a fairly good idea how to set this up and there is historical justification (we had a thread about this on Terranova, but it is lost); just wanted to check back for opinions anyway.
 

Tegetthoff

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I think this is ok. They wanted it historically - having achieved nothing to gain it in the war. They would have better cards had they gained it.
 

Zsar1

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The main difficulty will probably be time. I have found it rather hard in the past to acquire the three stretch goal provinces in Europe before FRA folds, it should not get easier here.
... Need to see how it goes. If it ends up being too easy, there are some french forces to shift around.