The Food Resource

[Miragu]

So I walked into this video assuming from the title

that it was going to be a "War about Oil". Since you know, Japan...Pearl Harbor...Oil Embargo..., and Germany....USSR...oilfields..

But then this guy said the word Food, and I was like, "Good Point."

Often times, we assume food isn't an issue since we hear most stories on the American/British/German side, from which food wasn't a big issue. But on the side of Japan and the rest of Asia...well, watch the video.

The video makes lots of points about the importance of food production and trade actually, how Britain feared starvation from probable defeat at the Atlantic, how lebenstraum and Japan's imperial ambition was also driven by need to increase/take over food resources. And how food was also an important element in the supply of an army, which can whittle you down like hell if you don't provide for it.

After all, armies march on their stomach. Not just the Steel / Aluminum that goes in their Weapons II and Support Equipment.

My first thought was this game might do well to also include a "Food" resource amongst the current others (Oil, Iron, Chromium, Rubber...etc). This, or "Civilian Goods" can become representative of Food, so as you try to focus more on industry, you suffer a cut in your Food output. I dunno, kinda side still with the former idea.

If we're going to nerd about changes to Oil Logistics, just thought we might also look into the stuff your men you know, eat.

 

[Nelfe]

There is not food resources, I think he spoke about the "civilian consumption".

 

[Miragu]

There is not food resources, I think he spoke about the "civilian consumption".

He also makes a lot of points about military consumption of food. -> When he talks about the 4,000+ calories eaten by American/British/German soldiers. The <2000 eaten by the not so fortunate civilians AND soldiers.

Why not add a food resource? It would just be a 7th resource like the others and seems important enough

 

[Nelfe]

He also makes a lot of points about military consumption of food. -> When he talks about the 4,000+ calories eaten by American/British/German soldiers. The <2000 eaten by the not so fortunate civilians AND soldiers.

Why not add a food resource? It would just be a 7th resource like the others and seems important enough

I agree with you, and I hope it will be moddable or added in a DLC. But I'm afraid that it will not be added before the game is released.

 

[kalauer]

I don't want to doubt his research since I did not do any of my own about this. But.

While starvation may have been a death cause for many people in WW2, this was imo more an effect of the war and resulting blockades than cause. Germany would have been very well able to feed its people without a global war. Not, as the guy in the video put it, on total autarky. But this hardly ever was the case for any country. So the idea to be autarkic alone is ideology, not necessarity. While there was a threat of being cut off of strategic resources by the big colonial powers, food wasn't one of those. Simply because it can be grown quite anywhere.

Assuming Wikipedia is not totally wrong on this one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum), food shortages in Germany happened during WW1, so also war related (as opposed to structural). The "Lebensraum" idea itself was connected with the ideological fear of "inferior races" and the belief that war is inevitable, thus strategic food supply and autarky was believed to be necessary.

Thus, to put it short, WW2 to me is still about ideology and not about food. The core thesis of the video, that the "desire for more food was one of the initial causes for WW2", could still stand, if emphasis is put on "desire". One would still have to explain where this desire came from, instead of implying it was a original one to feed the population. I didn't even mention scientific advancement which yield increases outweighted possible space gain by factors. So imo it is an interesting thought but to me not relevant enough to stand next to steel and oil.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Paradox doesn't want to get into the realm of starving civilians in their games I think?

 

[The Albatross]

Paradox doesn't want to get into the realm of starving civilians in their games I think?

And who said that a food resource should only focus on humans?
What about Horses, Mules, Donkeys and other beasts of burden?

Around 750,000 horses were used by the Axis in Barbarossa alone.
Hard-working horses required up to 12 pounds of grain per day.
And what about water???
Again --- we are back to LOGISTICS -- does the transportation system have enough capacity to fulfill this task?
Did anyone bring the saddles, reins, bits, horseshoes, farriers, horse blankest and all the other clobber??

References;
Beasts of War
Exploding Animals - yes, you did read that correctly

 

[theJ]

"Food" cannot be introduced into the current resource system, due to it being a constant drain, rather than a variable/flexible one - you cannot "build" around food consumption the way infantry-heavy builds mitigate oil-shortages.

Which is not to say that mechanics focused around food and other "basic" resources couldn't be made to work and be interesting - but it would require an entirely new set of mechanics.

...perhaps the day the extended supply-expansion rolls around...

 

[The Albatross]

"Food" cannot be introduced into the current resource system, due to it being a constant drain, rather than a variable/flexible one - you cannot "build" around food consumption the way infantry-heavy builds mitigate oil-shortages.

Which is not to say that mechanics focused around food and other "basic" resources couldn't be made to work and be interesting - but it would require an entirely new set of mechanics.

...perhaps the day the extended supply-expansion rolls around...

....indeed @theJ - you are correct.
I mentioned the "haybale" situation simply to illustrate this very limitation.
No doubt the historical mod purists will look at the expansion of supply and logistics some day.
Expect a more immersive game then too.

 

[leazriz]

Yes food is very important during war (it's one of he major reason for the collapse of germany in WWI) but Paradox is very picky when it comes to somethings that could directly affect civilians (see forum rules about strategic bombing)

"NOTE: Strategic bombing in HoI3 will be abstracted and not allow you to terror bomb civilians specifically. Chemical weapons will also not be included in the game. Any threads that complain about this issue will be closed without discussion."

This would be a good add to the game in a gameplay point of view but a mess for ethics.

 

[shri]

Food is not considered as Food would lead to major discussions of TABOO topics. This was made clear even in earlier HOI series like - 2,3 etc.

 

[Kevonfor]

Couldn't that be covered by supplies & attrition ?

 

[The Albatross]

Food is not considered as Food would lead to major discussions of TABOO topics. This was made clear even in earlier HOI series like - 2,3 etc.

Yes @shri -- I am deliberately limiting the FOOD issue to military transport via horses.
There is a vast difference, n'est ce pas?

 

[Evan05]

Couldn't that be covered by supplies & attrition ?

Just because a country has a large abundance of natural resources (Oil, metals, etc.) doesn't mean they have enough food to support their entire army.

 

[Secret Master]

This is just a friendly reminder that any kind of discussion of war crimes and genocide is off limits. This means we cannot discuss certain food related historical items, including the infamous Hunger Plan or any deliberate starvation of civilians.

If we can follow the rules, the thread can be left open.

 

[Miragu]

Hmm...didn't know Food as a topic had a connection to taboo topics.

Well, we could just make it so Food is only a factor for military applications (gotta feed your men)...perhaps civilians are never affected, and at worst you just suffer hits on National Unity for food shortages (which Japan arguably got during the last years of the war, so they capitulated easier without Soviet/American occupation of key cities)

 

[Evan05]

Hmm...didn't know Food as a topic had a connection to taboo topics.

Well, we could just make it so Food is only a factor for military applications (gotta feed your men)...perhaps civilians are never affected, and at worst you just suffer hits on National Unity for food shortages (which Japan arguably got during the last years of the war, so they capitulated easier without Soviet/American occupation of key cities)

Food shortages should also reduce your military units overall capabilities, since marching and shooting and repairing equipment and driving vehicles and taking and giving orders and various other military tasks becoming exceedingly difficult when you're starving.

 

[Ariakus Fordring]

We had "Consumer Goods" in HoI3.Shortage in C.G were causing dissent and this dissent was affecting troop's combat ability (organization).I was considering it was Food and other consumer related consumables.

 

[potski]

We have consumer goods in HOI4. You have to use a percentage of your factories to produce it. The icons in the game are a toaster, but you can assume it includes the bread to go in it.

The idea is that the population working in your factories expect to share in the wealth produced. You have to pay them wages, and they would then buy things produced by the consumer factories. And consumer factories could be flour mills and bakeries, as well as electrical goods.

Law changes to reduce this percentage abstract things like rationing, and other means of reducing consumption.

So say you have 10 factories - 5 consumer and 5 military. You might have to use 3 of these for consumer goods so can't use them for foreign trade, nor in construction.

 

[Secret Master]

We have consumer goods in HOI4. You have to use a percentage of your factories to produce it. The icons in the game are a toaster, but you can assume it includes the bread to go in it.

The idea is that the population working in your factories expect to share in the wealth produced. You have to pay them wages, and they would then buy things produced by the consumer factories. And consumer factories could be flour mills and bakeries, as well as electrical goods.

Law changes to reduce this percentage abstract things like rationing, and other means of reducing consumption.

So say you have 10 factories - 5 consumer and 5 military. You might have to use 3 of these for consumer goods so can't use them for foreign trade, nor in construction.

This was how it was abstracted in HOI3 more or less, with the added benefit of an agriculture tech that added manpower. Basically, with better agriculture, you freed up manpower to fight.

There was even a strategic resource related to food: black soil. You don't think black soil was a fertility treatment that caused increased manpower, did you?