The five oppressive edicts: what should be changed?

[Ikael]

I covered this in some of my later comments, but it's very unlikely for an empire to have all three, and very possible for a midgame empire to have none of them. It's less the same button three times, and more three paths to the same button. If you wanted to only have a single one be "the internal security edict", then it would have to be a completely different one that's unlocked by a common technology (say, the first +2 encryption one) or maybe the subterfuge tradition. Furthermore, +4 codebreaking alone isn't enough to fully shut down an espionage focused empire: you need the full +12 from edicts, plus an extra +2 from transcendence, to accomplish that.

Aye, that was my idea: to make the intelligence edict a costly, albeit powerful common tool for all empires, gated only by a regular technology requirement. I dig the idea of an edict that makes your empire go into "bunker mode" regarding spy incursions. The whole "accumulating spy bonuses via several edicts" is far less attractive to me, especially if those edicts have the same drawbacks (happiness penalty). I would much rather distribute encryption bonuses through other methods (Traditions, diplomatic instances, etc).

 

[Tamwin5]

Tracking Implants?
While it is technically a level 4 rare technology gated behind another rare technology, at least the predecessor technology feels like I draw it "all the time".

Subnormal Stimulation is only tier 2, has nearly twice the base draw rate, has a 1.25x modifier for being not egalitarian (aka most empires). It's also a rare technology, meaning if you took technological ascendency (like most players) you get a further boost. And then finally there is a bit of observation bias going on, since you see a shiny rare tech and get excited, then see what it is and how it's useless, and get sad, so you remember it more than when you draw the level 2 +30 naval cap tech.

But the key thing there is you draw it all the time. Not research. Unless you are proactively paranoid about espionage, or are at the end of the tech tree, you won't have any reason to grab Subnormal Stimulation or Tracking Implants ahead of time. Far better to get techs that improve your economy, research, or military. But if you are suddenly beset by espionage, you then need to get lucky trying to roll both those technologies, which frankly won't happen in time to matter.

Aye, that was my idea: to make the intelligence edict a costly, albeit powerful common tool for all empires, gated only by a regular technology requirement. I dig the idea of an edict that makes your empire go into "bunker mode" regarding spy incursions. The whole "accumulating spy bonuses via several edicts" is far less attractive to me, especially if those edicts have the same drawbacks (happiness penalty). I would much rather distribute encryption bonuses through other methods (Traditions, diplomatic instances, etc).

I do think there should be a few more encryption bonuses scattered around. And it's less "accumulating spy bonuses via several edicts", and more that I don't think going past +4 encryption on a single edict is very balanced, but there is a sliding scale of how much encryption you need in order to shut down spy networks. Against an equivalent empire (at least in terms of Codebreaking vs Encryption), a single one of these edicts will shut them down (Technically it is always possible to spy on someone*) For an empire focused on espionage though, you need multiple. I do think that's a good thing: If an empire has significantly invested into pursuing espionage, it shouldn't be as easy to shut them out as it is for a normal empire.

You do have a point about the same drawback, it can be things other than -10% happiness. So for example you could have an edict "Diplomatic screening" reducing empire relations and increasing diplomatic influence cost in exchange for that +4 encryption. But for the three existing edicts, I'm struggling to think of a good penalty besides the -10% happiness. Maybe Enhanced surveillance could give +25% empire size from pops, but I don't think that's as punishing as -10% happiness.

Thinking about it, I actually kind of want to not put an encryption edict in technology, or at least not a very strong one. Espionage is one of the aspects of the game that makes sense to be heavily focused on society and culture rather than just technology, and it could be a way for an empire behind in tech to still punch up. So an empire which beelines technology but discards unity should be weak to espionage. That diplomatic edict would git in Diplomacy, maybe something for adaptability or harmony? Not all of them need to be edicts, but I do think there should be a spread of "turtle up" edicts.

*Encryption caps at +4, giving -40 maximum infiltration (10). You can use gather intel operation, which only needs 10 infiltration, to get +5 max infiltration, up to +20. With 30 infiltration you can acquire assets like normal to increase it further. If an espionage network already has assets, then max infiltration is less of an issue, just hire more assets. But what IS an issue is the difficulty of operations: +4 encryption also gives +4 operation difficulty. While an operation will always progress at least one stage on a roll of 10, I can say from experience this takes FOREVER. An empire who is already established and has the perfect assets for the operations they want to run will have a much easier time though, to the point where I think there needs to be some anti-asset mechanic in play. Or maybe the turtle up edicts just need to increase operation cost, so even if you do have the encryption to push through it's more expensive.

 

[Tannhäuser Cake]

Subnormal Stimulation

Intentional typo or Freudian slip?

You do have a point about the same drawback, it can be things other than -10% happiness. So for example you could have an edict "Diplomatic screening" reducing empire relations and increasing diplomatic influence cost in exchange for that +4 encryption. But for the three existing edicts, I'm struggling to think of a good penalty besides the -10% happiness. Maybe Enhanced surveillance could give +25% empire size from pops, but I don't think that's as punishing as -10% happiness.

Is the penalty really necessary though, when considering that an upkeep price is already being paid? Many other edicts make do without a penalty; it is mostly the various subsidies and these oppressive edicts that use penalties, and the subsidies (and Nutritional Plenitude and Fleet Supremacy) focus on increased resource usage as "penalty". Happiness (and thereby Stability) penalties are on a different level from that.

Going the upkeep path, perhaps these alternatives would be appropriate?

• Thought Enforcement: increased upkeep for Telepath jobs, increased upkeep for psionic pops (takes greater effort/training to control their thoughts than those of mundanes)
• Tracking Implants: increased upkeep for all pops and/or Medical Workers, since all pops are being tracked and need new "vaccine shots" on a yearly basis
• Enhanced Surveillance: increased upkeep for Enforcers

Alternatively, as has been suggested before, the Happiness penalties could be limited by ethic or even handled as faction approval penalties (which could help push minor factions' approval down into -40% Happiness territory). Authoritarians / governmental factions should generally be more ok with the oppressive edicts, as they are not the ones being targeted, than the factions actually being suppressed by these edicts (i.e. every faction not getting the ethics attraction bonus).

Thinking about it, I actually kind of want to not put an encryption edict in technology, or at least not a very strong one. Espionage is one of the aspects of the game that makes sense to be heavily focused on society and culture rather than just technology, and it could be a way for an empire behind in tech to still punch up. So an empire which beelines technology but discards unity should be weak to espionage.

I agree with this sentiment.

An empire who is already established and has the perfect assets for the operations they want to run will have a much easier time though, to the point where I think there needs to be some anti-asset mechanic in play.

Sounds like a potential idea for a new Operation (along with getting some way of removing Favours held by others against you).

 

[Tamwin5]

Intentional typo or Freudian slip?

Yeah, the brain chips just aren't as good as normal stimulation (having someone stick their fingers in there and wiggle them around).

Is the penalty really necessary though, when considering that an upkeep price is already being paid? Many other edicts make do without a penalty; it is mostly the various subsidies and these oppressive edicts that use penalties, and the subsidies (and Nutritional Plenitude and Fleet Supremacy) focus on increased resource usage as "penalty". Happiness (and thereby Stability) penalties are on a different level from that.

Going the upkeep path, perhaps these alternatives would be appropriate?

• Thought Enforcement: increased upkeep for Telepath jobs, increased upkeep for psionic pops (takes greater effort/training to control their thoughts than those of mundanes)
• Tracking Implants: increased upkeep for all pops and/or Medical Workers, since all pops are being tracked and need new "vaccine shots" on a yearly basis
• Enhanced Surveillance: increased upkeep for Enforcers

Alternatively, as has been suggested before, the Happiness penalties could be limited by ethic or even handled as faction approval penalties (which could help push minor factions' approval down into -40% Happiness territory). Authoritarians / governmental factions should generally be more ok with the oppressive edicts, as they are not the ones being targeted, than the factions actually being suppressed by these edicts (i.e. every faction not getting the ethics attraction bonus).

I suppose you could just have an edict at cost 30 and that would be enough of a price. But I do think the espionage edicts coming with downsides is better. While there is the opportunity cost to the unity, directly harming the productivity of your empire (or empire relations, or whatever else the downside is) is much more obvious and tangible. These "turtle up" edicts shouldn't be run all the time, but rather be the response to aggressive espionage action against you. At least, as I see them. Thinking about it though, it would make sense for the Subterfuge tree to have a cost 30 no downside edict, since that is the main espionage focus. Maybe cost 20 for three encryption and a bonus effect? I'll give it some more thought.

I dislike costs that are disjointed from the effects. Sure Telepaths get -5 crime, but if the main bonus is the +4 encryption, then putting the main cost on telepaths means you could dodge it by not having telepaths. Admittedly telepaths are so strong they probably will never be disabled, but medical workers are very much optional, and often never built. I don't think any job upkeep penalty works with empire level modifiers. While I like the flavor of having thought enforcement be easier on mundane pops than psionic ones, in practice people tend to just make everyone psionic and it feels weird to punish that.

Sounds like a potential idea for a new Operation (along with getting some way of removing Favours held by others against you).

I've been pushing for an "Aggressive counter-espionage" operation since even before espionage dropped. I think removing favors would be a different operation though, and there should also be a diplomatic way to do it (the tradition lets you remove favors with harm relations just like how it lets you gain them with improve relations). Also improving relations shouldn't be able to acquire favors with rivals or people harming relations with you.

 

[Tannhäuser Cake]

Has anyone posted, or is anyone planning to post, any suggestions on this topic?

 

[Tamwin5]

Has anyone posted, or is anyone planning to post, any suggestions on this topic?

Yes, I've got an espionage post I'm working* on. Although it's just my suggestion of buffing them up to 4 encryption, so if you wanted to suggest more radical changes go for it.

*It's been sitting around for months at ~70% complete

 

[currylambchop]

Honestly I'd like to see something similar for Subterfuge. Give that Tradition some non-espionage benefits -- perhaps Diplomatic, perhaps warfare-oriented, or even both.

Didn't they just add some powerful combat bonuses to subterfuge?

 

[Tamwin5]

Didn't they just add some powerful combat bonuses to subterfuge?

Yes, tracking and evasion.