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Zaku

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I thought Germany poured in supplies to Mannerheim way before operation Barbarossa, yes its after Winter war, but Germany aided and prepared Finland for war on USSR

Germany opposed any help to Finland during the winter war, because of the Molotov Ribbentrop pact. They even stopped and turned back(or confiscated) most of the Hungarian and the Italian support convoys.
 
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jacobsighs

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Finland has the wrong Prime Minister. Is Paradox trying to save money by only doing a certain number of portraits per country? Ryti wasn't Prime Minister until 1940.
 

MajorHeartfire

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Maybe we will have to buy a DLC to get more faces in HOI like in CK2 o_O

Oh, who even knows anymore. Maybe they just need more time to finish up some of the remaining portraits. They aren't really critical, just disorienting.

Back on topic: I agree that aiding the Finnish should be an option for Italy and Germany, but, especially for Germany, doing so would break any treaties with the Soviets. The point of the Winter War for the Soviet player should simply be to show how poorly an army fights after the Purge. Not to be rude to the Finns, but the Purge played a very large role in that war.

Because the Winter War was an actual war, though, I assume the Germans and Italians could not send any actual battalions, correct?
 

Will Steel

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To be honest, I don't see the need for so elaborately detailed, coloured portraits that are consuming so much resources of Paradox, and cannot even be randomized and generated like in CK2. Creating such portraits for each and every single person would be a lot of work, and mods will never be able to match their quality.
 

Fulmen

The Winter War was only 7% of Finland's WW2
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Finland has the wrong Prime Minister. Is Paradox trying to save money by only doing a certain number of portraits per country? Ryti wasn't Prime Minister until 1940.
President, not PM. Though Ryti was neither in '36.

To clarify, in this timeframe (and before the 90s) the President of Finland had power in both foreign and domestic policy. Unlike with other Nordic countries, it's the head of state we want to have represented, not the PM. And PDOX seems to understand this as Ryti is wearing the presidential outfit (necklace and all that, which btw had swastikas IRL), they just got the years pretty mixed up.
 
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blue_yonder

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Because the Winter War was an actual war, though, I assume the Germans and Italians could not send any actual battalions, correct?

They couldn't send VF's (volunteer forces), no - they're only for civil wars, and even then, only if the donor country is at peace. Germany and/or Italy could send XF's (expeditionary forces) only if the donor country and the host country are in the same faction.
 

Mjarr

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Would that "Sisu" thing also apply when it is the Finns attacking someone? Because that would be really too powerful.

Sure, Finland with its massive sisu ski machine blitzkrieg and population of few millions is more unbalanced than USA, Germany, Soviet Union and UK combined when given some extra morale and slightly less attrition.
 
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Loke

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Sweden supported Finland as always.

It is known that at least 15,000 Swedes volunteered to fight alongside the Finns, with 10,000 accepted for training and 8,000 actually went to Finland in organised units before the war ended.
The Swedish government and public also sent food, clothing, medicine, weapons and ammunition to aid the Finns during this conflict. This military aid included:[4]

  • 135,402 rifles, 347 machine guns, 450 light machine guns with 50,013,300 rounds of small arms ammunition;
  • 144 field guns, 100 anti-aircraft guns and 92 anti-armour guns with 301,846 shells;
  • 300 sea mines and 500 depth charges;
  • 17 fighter aircraft, 5 light bombers, 1 DC-2 transport aircraft turned into bomber, and 3 reconnaissance aircraft, totally comprising 1/3 of the Swedish air force at the time.
 
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GhostKiller01

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Finland makes a great ally for Germany in HoI, as it can easily encircle Leningrad and push in the north. If it's backed by the rest of the Scandinavian Nations, they can steamroll the northern flank as long as a chunk of soviet divisions are locked in combat with the Wehrmacht or the Turkish forces
 

Fulmen

The Winter War was only 7% of Finland's WW2
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Sweden supported Finland as always.

It is known that at least 15,000 Swedes volunteered to fight alongside the Finns, with 10,000 accepted for training and 8,000 actually went to Finland in organised units before the war ended.
The Swedish government and public also sent food, clothing, medicine, weapons and ammunition to aid the Finns during this conflict. This military aid included:[4]

  • 135,402 rifles, 347 machine guns, 450 light machine guns with 50,013,300 rounds of small arms ammunition;
  • 144 field guns, 100 anti-aircraft guns and 92 anti-armour guns with 301,846 shells;
  • 300 sea mines and 500 depth charges;
  • 17 fighter aircraft, 5 light bombers, 1 DC-2 transport aircraft turned into bomber, and 3 reconnaissance aircraft, totally comprising 1/3 of the Swedish air force at the time.

It's not that simple. Swedish citizens provided help, but the Swedish government made some pretty harmful decisions. Here's a relatively brief run down:

Swedish volunteers

When the Winter War started, the government of Sweden actively suppressed any volunteer campaigns.

For example by 2.12.1939 the organisation for a Svenska Frikår containing 7 500 men to help in Northern Finland was laid out, but defence minister Sköld and prime minister Hansson forbade newspapers from writing about volunteer help to Finland. E.g. an advertisement labelled "Finlands sak är vår" (Finland's cause is ours) that also mentioned the accepting of volunteers at an office in Stockholm was seen by minister of justice Westmar as the recruitment of Swedish citizens into the service of a foreign country and therefore a breach of law. Because of this, many volunteers cancelled their applications and fresh applications stopped altogether. Later this ban on volunteer work was lifted, but they could never get it going on the same scale as it was before the ban.

On 6.12. PM Hansson laid out the new program for the Swedish government. This program contained things like prohibiting military aid to Finland, and prohibiting the equipping of volunteers from state stocks.

Later the PM secretly lifted the allowed maximum amount of volunteers first to 4 000, and eventually all the way to 16 000, but the damage was already done. The government also did give the volunteers use of 12 obsolete fighter aircraft, which is of course better than nothing.

Unfortunately the force of 8 000 Swedish volunteers had little impact on the war. A lot of them were not used to using weapons and required training which took time, and only few of them ever reached the front.

Material aid

I don't know your sources, because those figures differ from Mannerheim's:

-80 000 rifles
-500 machineguns
-85 AT guns
-112 field guns and howitzers
-104 AA guns
-50 million cartridges
-300 000 shells
-25 aircraft
-Fuel and other equipment

Some of these were given as loans and were returned after the Winter War.

Announcement of refusing to help with regular troops

16.2.1940 the government of Sweden publicly announced to the world that Sweden will not help Finland with regular troops. On 19.2. the king of Sweden gave another public announcement backing the government on the matter. This encouraged the Soviet Union in its demands, since it now knew that Sweden would not back Finland. At the very least, it would've been best for Finland if Sweden had remained silent.

In fact Finland's foreign minister Tanner told Sweden's PM Hansson that these announcements by the government and king cost Finland Viipuri and Sortavala, and that Sweden should've remained quiet. Viipuri was Finland's second largest city, with Sortavala being another important city in Finnish Karelia.

"It is hard to understand why the government of Sweden saw it necessary to make these public announcements, which with both their content and frame weakened our chances to get a tolerable peace - in Moscow on the other hand they of course brought satisfaction." -Mannerheim in his memoirs

Transit rights

Finland, England and France repeatedly tried getting the Swedish government to give transit rights to the Allies, so they could send help to Finland. The Swedes denied the Allies transit and threatened to rip up from the ground every single railway road leading to a port if the Allies landed on Swedish soil.

Now of course I am aware that Norway also denied transit rights, and that the true primary objective of the Franco-British expedition was to occupy strategic places in Northern Scandinavia, such as the harbour of Narvik and the iron ore mines in Northern Sweden. It's quite possible that only a token force of a few thousand men would've actually reached Finland to help fight the Russians. Still, the threat of Franco-British involvement in the Winter War was enough to bring Stalin to the negotiating table and give up trying to take over all of Finland for the short time being.

Also, interestingly the Polish government in exile had wanted to send 20 000 Polish soldiers to Finland through Sweden once the Winter War had begun. These soldiers were still in Latvia and Lithuania after the fall of Poland. Sweden however denied them access. One can of course speculate if the Poles would've been able to pull it off, even if they were granted access.

Sweden as intermediary to peace negotiations

Along with its public announcement in February 1940, the Swedish government's conduct as an intermediary in the peace negotiations was to Finland perhaps the most important and unfortunately also the most damaging act that official Sweden committed during the Winter War.

"I have talked with the marshal (Mannerheim), who has certain thoughts -- not proposals. Firstly, in the current state of affairs Sweden is unqualified as intermediary, because her main interest is to save her own skin. Therefore we must attempt to get another intermediary. The marshal on his behalf was thinking of the United States." -Finnish PM Ryti during a government cabinet meeting on 3.3.1940.

To pressure Sweden, Mannerheim even proposed to offer Åland to the USSR instead of Karelia and the Hanko Peninsula. This proposal was not accepted.

Basically Sweden wanted Finland to accept peace at all costs. That didn't make for a very good intermediary, and quite possibly cost us some land like the important industrial city of Enso. Enso and some other places weren't supposed to go to the Russians in the peace treaty, but the Russians took them anyway. But I won't go further into that now since it's a more complicated topic.

Altogether, the aid was and is appreciated. But it wasn't much, and could've been a lot more if not for the policies of the Swedish government.
 
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Loke

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It's not that simple. Swedish citizens provided help, but the Swedish government made some pretty harmful decisions. Here's a relatively
I don't know your sources, because those figures differ from Mannerheim's:
Altogether, the aid was and is appreciated. But it wasn't much, and could've been a lot more if not for the policies of the Swedish government.

Sources - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_Winter_War

I also agree that Sweden could have done alot more. Without hesitation an immediate Swedish military intervention to help defend Finland, "going all in".
 

jacobsighs

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President, not PM. Though Ryti was neither in '36.

To clarify, in this timeframe (and before the 90s) the President of Finland had power in both foreign and domestic policy. Unlike with other Nordic countries, it's the head of state we want to have represented, not the PM. And PDOX seems to understand this as Ryti is wearing the presidential outfit (necklace and all that, which btw had swastikas IRL), they just got the years pretty mixed up.

I'm aware of Finnish swastikas, but I was not aware that the President had power over foreign and domestic policy. I assumed (admittedly a bad idea) that they followed the modern European model (President is mostly ceremonial head of state, PM is executive). Thanks for telling me.
 

MajorHeartfire

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There were some pretty odd changes in the WWW stream, even though they had only progressed a few years. When was the election held in Finland? Is it possible the real President was defeated in the period they have already played?
 

Fulmen

The Winter War was only 7% of Finland's WW2
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I'm aware of Finnish swastikas, but I was not aware that the President had power over foreign and domestic policy. I assumed (admittedly a bad idea) that they followed the modern European model (President is mostly ceremonial head of state, PM is executive). Thanks for telling me.

Reforms to the constitution in 1984-2003 stripped most domestic powers away from the president. This wasn't really popular with average people, as most folks want a strong president to lead the country, in both domestic and foreign policy. Politicians did it mostly to benefit themselves, and possibly for some ideological reasons (we had 3 SDP presidents in a row in 1982-2012). Nowadays it is of course the PM who wields the most direct power within the country's borders.
 
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Fulmen

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Enfield303

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I really hope all of the 1936 & 1939 heads of government are correct when the game comes out. :(

Just like oddities in the tech trees, I imagine that any issues with incorrect portraits etc will be fixed prior to release. Changing an image file is pretty easy so most likely a low priority right now.


I'm more curious as to what decisions other nations will get in regard to the winter war. Will a fascist/isolationist Britain get a decision to lend lease the Finns? What options will the Scandinavians have? Is there a way to avoid the winter war all together?