The favor cost for calling allies into war should scale with ally size

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Mindel

General
2 Badges
Jan 23, 2018
1.773
6.869
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
Given how quickly currying favors works in 1.31.5, I would suggest 25 favors (at least) for allies of equal size, scaling up for allies that are much larger. Certainly getting called into war should be a bigger deal than someone taking some of your manpower or sailors.

Right now, a small nation allied to France or Ottomans can build enough favors to call them into war every 5 years or so. This turns the entire game into easy mode. I played several campaigns on VH as small starting nations in 1.31.5 and expanded to huge size with almost no fighting on my part; I simply grow favors, call in an overwhelming number of allies, and watch them do all the work from home. And I can do this twice per decade.

In fact, this idea isn't even new. A scaling price for calling in allies was actually how favors worked pre-Leviathan. Although the official cost was 10 favors, the fact that favors grew inversely proportional to the size of the ally effectively meant a scaling cost to call allies.

But currying favors completely threw this balance out the window by granting a flat rate of approximately .25 per month, however large the ally. That means that any ally, however large or small, can be regularly called into war every 5 years or so. To rectify this, we should now scale the price to take into account the size of the ally.

I should point out that all of this is just an ad-hoc fix. The fundamental problem is that currying favors is a game-breaking mechanic in its current form and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. But leaving that fight aside for another day, we should at least make the costs for using favors more appropriate.
 
  • 3Like
  • 1
Reactions:

MatthewP

General
52 Badges
Feb 8, 2017
1.776
5.246
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
Given how quickly currying favors works in 1.31.5, I would suggest 25 favors (at least) for allies of equal size, scaling up for allies that are much larger. Certainly getting called into war should be a bigger deal than someone taking some of your manpower or sailors.

Right now, a small nation allied to France or Ottomans can build enough favors to call them into war every 5 years or so. This turns the entire game into easy mode. I played several campaigns on VH as small starting nations in 1.31.5 and expanded to huge size with almost no fighting on my part; I simply grow favors, call in an overwhelming number of allies, and watch them do all the work from home. And I can do this twice per decade.

In fact, this idea isn't even new. A scaling price for calling in allies was actually how favors worked pre-Leviathan. Although the official cost was 10 favors, the fact that favors grew inversely proportional to the size of the ally effectively meant a scaling cost to call allies.

But currying favors completely threw this balance out the window by granting a flat rate of approximately .25 per month, however large the ally. That means that any ally, however large or small, can be regularly called into war every 5 years or so. To rectify this, we should now scale the price to take into account the size of the ally.

I should point out that all of this is just an ad-hoc fix. The fundamental problem is that currying favors is a game-breaking mechanic in its current form and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. But leaving that fight aside for another day, we should at least make the costs for using favors more appropriate.
I agree with you that currying favors is problematic, but this fix messes up the game even worse for people without the dlc.
 

Mindel

General
2 Badges
Jan 23, 2018
1.773
6.869
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
I agree with you that currying favors is problematic, but this fix messes up the game even worse for people without the dlc.
This is a good point. Shoving a constant-growth mechanic into (what was previously) a scale-dependent framework makes it difficult to find a solution that works both with and without the DLC. Aside from removing the bad mechanic, anyway.

Let's do it the other way then: maintain the same costs to call allies, reduce the price of getting cash, troops, etc. to 5 favors, and massively nerfing the curry favor action, so that it does no more than increasing your natural favor growth rate by, say +25%. So if you naturally grow favors with Ottomans at 0.2 per year, then currying raises this to 0.25 per year.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1
Reactions:

MatthewP

General
52 Badges
Feb 8, 2017
1.776
5.246
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
This is a good point. Shoving a constant-growth mechanic into (what was previously) a scale-dependent framework makes it difficult to find a solution that works both with and without the DLC. Aside from removing the bad mechanic, anyway.

Let's do it the other way then: maintain the same costs to call allies, reduce the price of getting cash, troops, etc. to 5 favors, and massively nerfing the curry favor action, so that it does no more than increasing your natural favor growth rate by, say +25%. So if you naturally grow favors with Ottomans at 0.2 per year, then currying raises this to 0.25 per year.
Yeah, something like this seems good. I think the base value should still be modified by dip rep (and maybe opinion) like in the current mechanic though. It's a neat added use for dip rep and diplomats, just quite a bit overtuned right now.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

annulen

General
26 Badges
Jul 18, 2021
1.781
1.296
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
I don't have Leviathan but I think correct solution would be to replace currying favors with different mechanics. For example, if you search this sub-forum for "favors" you can see suggestions about gaining favors for dealing with ally's rebels, transferring trade power, etc. In other words, favors should be gained by doing something useful for ally instead of just smooth talking them via diplomats.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

MatthewP

General
52 Badges
Feb 8, 2017
1.776
5.246
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
I don't have Leviathan but I think correct solution would be to replace currying favors with different mechanics. For example, if you search this sub-forum for "favors" you can see suggestions about gaining favors for dealing with ally's rebels, transferring trade power, etc. In other words, favors should be gained by doing something useful for ally instead of just smooth talking them via diplomats.
I don’t think anyone’s going to disagree that this sounds cool but it’s a much more expensive and complex fix that would bring its own major balancing challenges.
 

Mindel

General
2 Badges
Jan 23, 2018
1.773
6.869
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
I don't have Leviathan but I think correct solution would be to replace currying favors with different mechanics. For example, if you search this sub-forum for "favors" you can see suggestions about gaining favors for dealing with ally's rebels, transferring trade power, etc. In other words, favors should be gained by doing something useful for ally instead of just smooth talking them via diplomats.

I have an earlier suggestion which discusses this.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: