the fate of the OE

[TheLoneTaco]

in my current game as the papal states, i wanted to see how the other roman empire was doing, so i scrolled over to greece. the ottomans by this point (1430ish) had control of thrace, but the byzantines still controlled morea and had roughly 30,000 men there. the ottomans could have thrown thousands of men at morea, but instead chose to hold thrace for THIRTY YEARS.

about 10 years into this, the other turks and the two romania's both got to thinking "hey, why not destroy the ottoman empire?" candar and karaman started taking turkey (candar got 1, karaman got 2 or 3) while moldavia and wallachia both edged into the slavic provinces, taking both. athens moved up and took macedonia to make the ottoman empire a one province country by about 1460.

in a second series of wars, wallachia took anatolia, leaving the OE with only thrace under their control. somehow (i wasn't paying attention) they lost control of thrace, and were promptly annexed. the OE dissappeared by 1470.

over the next 100 years, karaman pretty much too all of asia minor, except for a three province dukadar sp? and a one province candar. the byzantines and athens fought it out for control of greece and what became bulgaria. eventually the byzantines lost morea to a new hellas, so there are 3 greeces. if they united they would be the strongest thing for 500 miles because...

karaman broke up, and a 1 province OE formed, took two provinces, and then lost them to persia who now has them under permanent revolt. the hedjez sp? also split up asia minor.

ive never seen anything like this, but i got a laugh out of it. france is also getting its ass kicked, and geographic france still looks like it did in 1419, albeit with different countries. somehow denmark took over almost all of scandinavia with 3/2 tech (in 1600!) but lost most of it to a reborn norway, sweden, and russia.

-Matt

 

[TheF]

Curious.. what patch are you using?

Greeks were hard to unite historically too .

 

[Arilou]

Strangeness abounds.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Ottomans attacking with cavalry heavy armies versus infantry heavy Byzantines in a mountain province and gaining amphibious bonus???!!! Wonder no more

 

[unmerged(8576)]

The Ottomans need strengthening like never before.

 

[unmerged(4444)]

Originally posted by TheLoneTaco
in my current game as the papal states, i wanted to see how the other roman empire was doing, so i scrolled over to greece. the ottomans by this point (1430ish) had control of thrace, but the byzantines still controlled morea and had roughly 30,000 men there. the ottomans could have thrown thousands of men at morea, but instead chose to hold thrace for THIRTY YEARS.

about 10 years into this, the other turks and the two romania's both got to thinking "hey, why not destroy the ottoman empire?" candar and karaman started taking turkey (candar got 1, karaman got 2 or 3) while moldavia and wallachia both edged into the slavic provinces, taking both. athens moved up and took macedonia to make the ottoman empire a one province country by about 1460.

in a second series of wars, wallachia took anatolia, leaving the OE with only thrace under their control. somehow (i wasn't paying attention) they lost control of thrace, and were promptly annexed. the OE dissappeared by 1470.

over the next 100 years, karaman pretty much too all of asia minor, except for a three province dukadar sp? and a one province candar. the byzantines and athens fought it out for control of greece and what became bulgaria. eventually the byzantines lost morea to a new hellas, so there are 3 greeces. if they united they would be the strongest thing for 500 miles because...

karaman broke up, and a 1 province OE formed, took two provinces, and then lost them to persia who now has them under permanent revolt. the hedjez sp? also split up asia minor.

ive never seen anything like this, but i got a laugh out of it. france is also getting its ass kicked, and geographic france still looks like it did in 1419, albeit with different countries. somehow denmark took over almost all of scandinavia with 3/2 tech (in 1600!) but lost most of it to a reborn norway, sweden, and russia.

-Matt

Hmmm, sounds like the 1.07b patches... what version was this under?

Phil

 

[unmerged(12603)]

it my latest game as venice the ottoman empire is down to a 3 province country. and got split up by dutchy of atens, naples, albania, and siebenbergen.

they got utterly slaughtered the didnt have enough money to buy troops or anyhing.

 

[unmerged(9090)]

I once had a game (1.06) where the OE was reduced to 1 province (Thrace) They lost almost evreything they had to rebels in de 1470's. They could restore some of their country but still it was a very smaal OE at the end of the GC.

 

[TheLoneTaco]

sorry about version - 1.07 w/ april 2 beta

-Matt

 

[unmerged(6925)]

Poor Ottomans... I say bring back the cheap troops and morale bonus from EU1!

 

[TheLoneTaco]

ok, update for both of you that care. the persians converted symria to shitte muslim, but the ottomans took it and thrace back after the byzantines (with 950% inflation) finally collapsed. that was in 1610ish, so only a few hundred years off.

hellas also meet a grim demise, at the hands of the duchy of athens. the duchy also took albania (again) and with moldovia, beat the crap out of the ottomans and took thrace and symria. when ionia defected to the duchy, they had all of greece except for corfu (which has been in rebel hands for 50+ years but wont defect), crete, which i own, and cyprus, which venice owns and controls with a 40,000 troop army.

one wierd thing i noticed: when the ottomans were reborn, they lost all of their cultures except for turkish. why aren't the other cultures hard-coded?

-Matt

edit: spelling errors

 

[unmerged(7192)]

I playing the latest beta as the OE, and it is 1530. My land tech is 2, and it will cost me 17,000 ducats to go to level 3. The Latin powers all have a tech around 11-12.

I've conquered he Mamelukes, and the smaller Balkan powers. I didn't try to take Ak Koyulunu, though.

 

[Alyosha]

I playing the latest beta as the OE, and it is 1530. My land tech is 2, and it will cost me 17,000 ducats to go to level 3. The Latin powers all have a tech around 11-12.

What!? Did they take away Latin from the Ottomans or something? Jeebus, Land Tech 2 in 1530, in previous patches I'm usually leading land and naval or at least on par at this time. This is scary if true and definitely needs reworking if a universal case. Damn.

 

[Duuk]

I've suggested in another thread that monarch MIL rating affect the support limit.

MIL 9 -> Original 1.05 support limit
MIL 8 -> +50%
MIL 7 -> +100% (X2 actually)
MIL 6 -> +150%
MIL 5 -> +200% (X3 roughly 1.06 level)
MIL 4 -> +250%
MIL 3 -> +300% (X4, a penalty on bad monarchs)

This would give the Ottomans the ability to field those large armies in 1450 while they have excellent monarch MILs.

Duuk

 

[Medicine Man]

I'm completely in favor of positive changes for the Ottoman Empire. Where I typically get stuck is when I try to put my finger on what exactly needs to be done for them. My somewhat scientific analysis of the OE leads me to believe that they fail repeatedly due to three main shortcomings:

1) They fail to build up a 'critical momentum' early in the grand campaign (1419) and thus stagnate

2) Nations outside of asia minor intervene too early and in too great force for the AI to handle

3) Even a fully-formed Ottoman Empire suffers from terrible stability costs due to the abundance of religions in their territory. Additionally, some of the OE's provinces in Antolia are far poorer than they should be.

Point #1 is probably the most important one. Playing the Ottoman Empire in 1419 is not a total cakewalk for the human player. The OE does not start with territories that can support her armies or her expansion. It is simply not reasonable to expect that the AI will be able to reproduce the historical achievements of the OE every time given the complexity of the decisions that it has to make. Perhaps some form of assistance should be given to the AI via events in order to help the fledgling turkish empire grow in the earliest stages of the game?

When the Ottoman Empire falters in the opening segments of the game, then we typically see the great partition. Everyone gets involved: Venice, Wallachia, Moldavia, Hungary, Serbia, Teke, Candar, Karaman. On one hand, this is not entirely ahistorical, these nations did not like the Turks. On the other hand, the Ottoman Empire historically was able to expand because her neighbors did not unite against her and strike decisively until the OE was enormously powerful -- too powerful to crush utterly. For point #2, perhaps something should be done to make Turkey's neighbors less likely to invade in the earliest portions of the game. Most of the OE's wars should be fought in Greece and Asia Minor early on, followed by wars against Venice, followed by wars in Egypt and the Balkans. There should not be this big 'dogpile' ten years into the game.

Point #3 is the really hard one. What can be done to help the Ottoman Empire that is not totally ahistorical or nonsensical? I'm tempted to suggest a few free religious conversions followed by a battery of AI-only events to bolster the OE. I'm just not sure what would be appropriate. It has also been mentioned a few times that Anatolia and Symria should have more manpower and tax value.

What I would really like to see is a 'How to Improve the Ottoman Empire' thread following the model that the Polish enthusiasts put forward. The squeaky wheel gets the grease and all that. I believe that there was once a thread of this nature for the OE but, ironically, it got hijacked by Katsyev.

Cheers.

 

[N Katsyev]

I believe that there was once a thread of this nature for the OE but, ironically, it got hijacked by Katsyev.

I remember the OE thread about Latin, but I hardly hijacked it, I think I only posted in it once... but I dunno, i'd have to go sifting. If somehow I did, I certainly didn't mean to.

*edit* Hijacked my ass, I just quickly went back 14 pages of threads, the only major Ottoman (Peter Ebbesen's "The AI Ottoman Under Achievers.. or something like that) one that I found was 4 pages long and didn't include a single post from me. I know at some point there was a thread where I posted that Ottos should maybe start with land tech 7, but without the dots its hard to tell where you have posted and whre you haven't. Anyway, I didn't hijack anything and support trying to get AI to be able to handle the Ottos better. I also do like the manpower/tax increases in Anatolia. Anyway, you "Ottoman enthusiasts" should put something together, i'd put in a positive word or two.

 

[Medicine Man]

Originally posted by N Katsyev
I remember the OE thread about Latin, but I hardly hijacked it, I think I only posted in it once... but I dunno, i'd have to go sifting. If somehow I did, I certainly didn't mean to.

I'm just messing with you, Kat. All I remember is that our historic (historonic?) debate over Poland and latin tech started shortly after Peter's OE thread was aired.

 

[MichOrion]

I'm playing with 1.07 and if I'm not playing the OE, it generally doesn't do as well as it did historically and generaly does worse. The Ottomans are now difficult for a human to achieve historical greatness, so I guess the AI just can't make the decisions needed to be succesful. Some tweeking appears to be in order.

 

[N Katsyev]

Originally posted by Medicine Man
I'm just messing with you, Kat. All I remember is that our historic (historonic?) debate over Poland and latin tech started shortly after Peter's OE thread was aired.

Just leave it "historic", it definitely was. Clash of the titans and all.

 

[TheLoneTaco]

if i recall correctly the ottomans were far more advanced than europe when using gunpowder. i think this means they deserve at least a single tech level above the europeans, along with latin tech - seeing as how they maintained that lead for many years (supposedly there is an event that signals the end of this superiority, i cant remember it though).

in my EEP games, the OE tends to do MUCH better and in one game as austria actually gave me a run for my money for about a hundred years. i think they start with latin in the EEP, and have some other bonuses. im sure someone knows them.

-Matt