The Fate of Nitra - Suggestions and national Ideas

The Fate of Nitra - Suggestions and national Ideas

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Sven446

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Hello everyone!

After watching the feature stream for Mare Nostrum and seeing that Nitra (Basically Slovakia, my home) Had no distinct national ideas. Jake encouraged us to make some suggestions about the ideas and their backgrounds.
I am not a historian by far, but I am quite handy in my local history.

Without further do, lets begin!

First some background: Nitra, or the Principality of Nitra was one of two countries left after the split of Great Moravia (the first, predominantly Slavonic, major state to emerge in the area of Central Europe, and the first to adopt christianity) after the death of Svätopluk. After the hunic invasions and the formation of the kingdom of Hungary around the year 1000 a.d., the region of Slovakia was conquered and became for centuries part of Hungary and later the Habsburg empire.

As of the culture: I am really glad Paradox added Slovak as a separate culture but please for the love of GOD! Slovaks are both linguistically and culturally western slavic! I understand it being a nerf for Hungary, but the slovak and hungarian cultures could not be any more different. Please, if you could just take a small moment to rethink your decision you would make a few souls a tad bit happier.

But enough of my rant! Lets see the Ideas, shall we?

Traditions:
-10%
infantry cost
+10% tax modifier

Beacon of Christianity
+1
tolerance of the true faith
The Byzantine Emperor Michael III sent out Saint Cyril and his brother Saint Methodus in 863 to Great Moravia to spread Christianity among the Slavs in the area.

Rudohorie
+10%
production efficiency
The mountains of central Slovakia are exceptionally rich with rare minerals such as gold, copper and iron.

The Glagolitic Alphabet
+1
yearly prestiege
The Glagolithic alphabet was the first slavic alphabet created in the 9th century by Saint Cyril, a Byzantine monk from Thessaloniki who sought to make the Bible understandable to the general population. First considered heresy, it was eventually formally approved by Pope Adrian II.

The Three Twigs of Svätopluk
+1
diplomatic reputation
"My sons, whoever breaks all these twigs, will be my successor." None of them were able to break them. "Now, all of you take one, and break them. As you see, only united are you strong enough to maintain this kingdom."

The Slovak Will (this might be better as a tradition)
+30% Hostile core-creation cost on us
For centuries we have maintained our cultural identity even after many attempts of foreign powers trying to assimilate our lands into their territory.

Novum Castrum
+20%
Fort deffense
During the Ottoman–Habsburg wars many forts have been erected to protect Vienna from the turks. One of the most signifficant being the fort Novum Castrum, withstanding the most Turkish sieges before falling

Freedom Fighters
+1 attrition for enemies
The woods and mountains of our nation provide us with excellent cower against foreign invaders. Starving out enemy armies during sieges and ambushing supply lines is an effective way to make the enemy retreat

Ambition:
+1 Leader(s) without upkeep

These are my Ideas, making Nitra a basically defensive country but deffinetly not overpowered. The incresed coring cost is nice to repel early attackers like Poland and Bohemia (none of them had real intrest in slovakia).

I would like to thatk you all for reading my ideas. I'm almost certain this is not the best or consistent set of ideas, but I hope the developers will get some inspiration and insight about this little country in the hearth of europe.
 
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sparta105

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First some background: Nitra, or the Principality of Nitra was one of two countries left after the split of Great Moravia (the first, predominantly Slavonic, major state to emerge in the area of Central Europe, and the first to adopt christianity) after the death of Svätopluk. After the hunic invasions and the formation of the kingdom of Hungary around the year 1000 a.d., the region of Slovakia was conquered and became for centuries part of Hungary and later the Habsburg empire.

The huns invaded the Carpathian basin in the 4th century. If you're referreing to the Hungarians arriving, then I must tell you that it wasn't a "glorious invasion". In 895 the Pechenegs attacked the women, children and the old while the warriors were away raiding Bulgaria. So, having no choice but to flee, the Hungarian tribes moved into Transylvania and by 907 they drove out the last East Francian (or rather German at that point) troops and conquered the remnants of Great Moravia. So the conquest you're referring to was 93 years before the foundation of the Kingdom. I'm not denying that there were Moravians left (there ought to be) but they were pretty much assimilated by the more numerous Hungarians. After 1242 (the mongol invasion), Béla IV asked for Polish, Czech, German (more specifically Saxon) and ruthenian colonists to repopulate some of the area as the country lost almost a quarter of her population. Slovakians were born from the mix of Poles, Czechs and Hungarians.

As of the culture: I am really glad Paradox added Slovak as a separate culture but please for the love of GOD! Slovaks are both linguistically and culturally western slavic! I understand it being a nerf for Hungary, but the slovak and hungarian cultures could not be any more different. Please, if you could just take a small moment to rethink your decision you would make a few souls a tad bit happier.

While I agree with you that Slovakian should be West Slavic, the provinces they (will) reside in are the richest in Hungary. Taking that away from them will make the country even more of a pushover for the Ottomans (and possibly Austria).

The Slovak Will (this might be better as a tradition)
+30% Hostile core-creation cost on us
For centuries we have maintained our cultural identity even after many attempts of foreign powers trying to assimilate our lands into their territory.

NO HOSTILE CORE CREATION! NO! NO! NO!
Otherwise I like your set and I hope it makes it into the game! :)
 
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Stellarvore

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nice set of ideas but hostile core creation cost should really be reconsidered
it's one of the most annoying mechanics in the game and doesn't make it more challenging
 
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Sven446

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nice set of ideas but hostile core creation cost should really be reconsidered
it's one of the most annoying mechanics in the game and doesn't make it more challenging

It is only intended if you are going to play as Nitra. It does not start as a sovereign state, so the hostile core creation cost may never be there. I doubt that Bohemia, Poland, or in fact Austria would release Nitra, instead of just taking it.

P.S.: Ofc I hate hostile core creation, its so goddamn annoying :D.
 

SleazyUlmerian

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I also joined forums today after seeing the Mare Nostrum showcase of Ideas and Timeline. As Sven, I too am Slovak living in Nitra (actually, in the city Nitra itself) and would like to suggest and help in creating interesting descriptions for the ideas or possible decisions and events for Hungary and Nitra in the future. I know the history of the region pretty well as well as it's position in the Hungarian kingdom throughout the EU4 timeline.

Slovakians were born from the mix of Poles, Czechs and Hungarians.
I am sorry but saying Slovaks were born from Poles, Czechs and Hungarians is simply nonsense. Admittedly though, Slovaks are the second smallest western Slavic tribe, after Lausitz Serbians, a tiny west Slavic tribe that lives in the regions or Ober and Niderlausitz with official population around 100 000. Slovaks were more than triple that number when the EU4 timeline begins, a considerable amount of population at that time, and the population steadily increased until WWI, when there were total of 1.9 million Slovaks living in the Austria-Hungary.

I have one suggestion regarding the provinces Nitra has cores on and controls upon release aswell.
The province of Maramoros, or Carpathian Rus as it's known today, was never considered part of Nitra or Slovakia. It was, however, part of "Upper Hungary", a title commonly used during the middle ages to describe the northern regions of The Kingdom of Hungary, consisting of Slovakia, Carpathian Rus/Maramoros, and important religious center of Esztergom. That title was abandoned after Austrians integrated Hungary. So my suggestion is to remove Nitra's core on Maramoros, as it wasn't part of the region.
Now to Sven's suggestions:

Traditions: Swap infantry cost for Local Trade Power bonus. Slovaks never played a big difference in Hungarian or Austrian armies until WWI in Northern Italy. However, the rich salt deposits in north eastern regions and salt routes going to Krakow and Prague played a critical role in Hungarian trade flowing upward from the Balkan provinces. This also helps a small nation in lesser contested trade nodes of Krakow and Wien and brings some income. Since Slovakia was heavily influenced by influx of Jewish population during the middle ages I am fine with the tax bonus.

The Glagolitic Alphabet
+1 yearly prestige


Beacon of Christianity into Archbishopric of Esztergom
+1 tolerance of the true faith, 10% Religious Unity

I like this, but the text seems too old for 1444. Maybe the bonus could stay with this text, adapting Nitra existing game position as released vassal of Hungary:
In 1279, bishop of Esztergom obtained the title Primas Hungariae thus becoming the official religious head of The Kingdom of Hungary, and controlling most of the Slovakia under it's direct rule and creating one of the biggest archbishoprics at that time.

Rudohorie change into 21,5 Million Ducats or Florin
0,10 Yearly Inflation Reduction
After Venetian ducats overflew the European trade market in early 14th century, the mint in Kremnica began printing the most precious ducat of the late middle ages. The florin ducats were made from 98,6% fine gold.

The Three Twigs of Svätopluk into Slovakicized Czech
+5% Core Creation Cost on Us, 20% Better Relations Over Time
Language adopted by most of the Slovak Evangelical intelligence in 16. century, a new form of Biblical Czech reminded our people of the Slavic ethnicity and relations with other Slavic people under Austrian influence.

Slovak Will into Magnum decus Hungariae
10% cheaper Admin tech cost
Matej Bel z Očovej, Slovak and Hungarian poly historic, teacher and evangelic priest, the Idol of Denise Diderot, created the first Encyclopedia covering the history of the Carpathian region and is considered one of the founding fathers of Enlightenment.

Novum Castrum
+20% Fort Defense


Freedom Fighters into Militia Conscripts
-10% Land Maintenance Modifier

Ambition:
+1 attrition for enemies


So these would be my personal choices. I tried to browse through the history of our country to find a nice balance between economic, diplomatic and military ideas.
It would also be nice if Nitra had an event with MTTH set on being independent for at least 20 years, giving it historical friend bonus choice between Bohemia, Hungary or HRE emperor. Czechs and Slovaks had brother relationship ever since the tribes settled in Central Europe. However Magyar assimilation policies over the course of hundreds of years made many Slovaks thinking of themselves as Hungarians. Lastly during the Austrian and Austrian-Hungary period Slovaks intelligence had established some relationships with Austrians and some cities had economic rights similar to those of HRE free cities, while still being integrated into the empire.
 
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It is only intended if you are going to play as Nitra. It does not start as a sovereign state, so the hostile core creation cost may never be there. I doubt that Bohemia, Poland, or in fact Austria would release Nitra, instead of just taking it.

P.S.: Ofc I hate hostile core creation, its so goddamn annoying :D.

Don't make it a tradition at least; that would cause the +HCC to exist in 1444 along with their cores.

I'm against hostile creation cost in general because a player could unwittingly release a nation only to find out it has +HCC in its later NIs. Even worse are the released nations that take Aristocracy with the new dynamic/random idea group choices.
 
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Freudia

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Hostile coring cost should stay in!

It adds nothing to the game. In the hands of a player it's a wasted slot; in the hands of an AI it's nothing interesting to overcome except that it automatically paints a target on that particular AI's nation to prevent the spreading of it.
 
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SleazyUlmerian

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Well, if the bonus was small and combined like in my suggestion f.e., would you still flip the table about it? It actually helps AI in this case, since released Nitra would be stuck between Hungary, Bohemia, Poland and HRE with austrian emperor who can get PU over Hungary. Also, by taking administrative you can get it 25% cheaper. Since country won't be in the beginning of the game, you will already have that idea by the time you get to annex independent Nitra, if it ever gets independent in the first place. Which unless you decide to do it doesn't seem likely :)
 
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I'm throwing some translations to this topic to improve the experience.

Province Names:

Owned by Nitra/Bohemia -
154 = "Nitra"
162 = "Zemplin" (Zemplín)
1772 = "Presporok" (Prešporok)
1318 = "Spis" (Spiš)
Owned by Hungary -
154 = "Nyitra"
162 = "Zemplen" (Zemplén)
1772 = "Pozsony"
1318 = "Szepes"
Owned by Austria/other german states -
154 = "Neutra"
162 = "Semplin"
1772 = "Pressburg"
1318 = "Zips"


Estates:

Nobility = Šľachta
Burghers = Mešťania
Clergy = Duchovní

I'm also adding translations for Bohemia because currently it is half translated.

Owned by Bohemia -
263 = "Ratibor"
264 = "Vratislav"
265 = "Morava"
266 = "Praha"
267 = "Plzen" (Plzeň)
1763 = "Dolni Luzice" (Dolní Lužice)
1771 = "Krusne hory" (Krušné hory)
2966 = "Hlohov"
2967 = "Chebsko"
2968 = "Budejovice" (Budějovice)
2970 = "Hradecko"
60 = "Horni Luzice" (Horní Lužice)
 
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The huns invaded the Carpathian basin in the 4th century. If you're referreing to the Hungarians arriving, then I must tell you that it wasn't a "glorious invasion". In 895 the Pechenegs attacked the women, children and the old while the warriors were away raiding Bulgaria. So, having no choice but to flee, the Hungarian tribes moved into Transylvania and by 907 they drove out the last East Francian (or rather German at that point) troops and conquered the remnants of Great Moravia. So the conquest you're referring to was 93 years before the foundation of the Kingdom. I'm not denying that there were Moravians left (there ought to be) but they were pretty much assimilated by the more numerous Hungarians. After 1242 (the mongol invasion), Béla IV asked for Polish, Czech, German (more specifically Saxon) and ruthenian colonists to repopulate some of the area as the country lost almost a quarter of her population. Slovakians were born from the mix of Poles, Czechs and Hungarians.

While I agree with you that Slovakian should be West Slavic, the provinces they (will) reside in are the richest in Hungary. Taking that away from them will make the country even more of a pushover for the Ottomans (and possibly Austria).

genetically speaking no, today hungarians are 50% slovak while Slovaks are 80% genetically tied to people living in the same area 8000 years ago. Those oldschool hungarians are almost completely gone now (this can traced in Sforza´s genetic study made in Standford, partial studies were conducted for example in Wales, Hungary and Slovakia). Hungarians were pretty much assimilated by Slovaks and other groups (Prison of nations?), "szlachta" (as Poland has it in the game) just pretended to be hungarian and learned/spoke hungarian mostly for political reasons. This is all of course politically incorrect for many countries these days (even though many Hungarian researchers and historians were saying this since like 19th century).

Also, the real archeological research in Slovakia is still very weak, there are sites with high chance of being former cities inhabiting thousands of people. We dont know much about these areas before this "migration of nations", main stream history basically says that millions of slavs and other horde tribes came out of nowhere (or frozen wastelands from the ice age...). Anyway, i think this debate is rather pointless, Slovak culture makes sense imo, lets just focus on how to introduce this flavour into the game the best we can.

As for ideas:
Slovaks never attacked anyone so peacefull and defensive focus is the way to go.

Hello everyone!

Traditions:
-10%
infantry cost
+10% tax modifier

Beacon of Christianity
+1
tolerance of the true faith
The Byzantine Emperor Michael III sent out Saint Cyril and his brother Saint Methodus in 863 to Great Moravia to spread Christianity among the Slavs in the area.

Rudohorie
+10%
production efficiency
The mountains of central Slovakia are exceptionally rich with rare minerals such as gold, copper and iron.

The Glagolitic Alphabet
+1
yearly prestiege
The Glagolithic alphabet was the first slavic alphabet created in the 9th century by Saint Cyril, a Byzantine monk from Thessaloniki who sought to make the Bible understandable to the general population. First considered heresy, it was eventually formally approved by Pope Adrian II.

The Three Twigs of Svätopluk
+1
diplomatic reputation
"My sons, whoever breaks all these twigs, will be my successor." None of them were able to break them. "Now, all of you take one, and break them. As you see, only united are you strong enough to maintain this kingdom."

The Slovak Will (this might be better as a tradition)
+30% Hostile core-creation cost on us
For centuries we have maintained our cultural identity even after many attempts of foreign powers trying to assimilate our lands into their territory.

Novum Castrum
+20%
Fort deffense
During the Ottoman–Habsburg wars many forts have been erected to protect Vienna from the turks. One of the most signifficant being the fort Novum Castrum, withstanding the most Turkish sieges before falling

Freedom Fighters
+1 attrition for enemies
The woods and mountains of our nation provide us with excellent cower against foreign invaders. Starving out enemy armies during sieges and ambushing supply lines is an effective way to make the enemy retreat

Ambition:
+1 Leader(s) without upkeep

In my mind we could go a bit crazy here, something like +/- morale in domestic/foreign territory could be introduced, or triggered (offensive/defensive war). That would properly represent the nature of Slovaks (+20% morale in owned province, -20% in foreign province? is this possible?).
Slovakia currently belongs to countries with huge network of castles and has one the biggest castles in Europe (i would prefer province modifier for Spiš castle though, i think it adds more flavour, these biggest castles often played major role in wars, something like +25% defensiveness and -50% maintenance could motivate players to build/keep forts in less lucrative areas as well).
I would enhance Beacon of Christianity, add 1 more tolerance or 1% missionary strength.

Anyway, even though i am from Slovakia i dont think giving "Nitra" too good ideas is the way to go. We lived peacefully for almost 1000 years, problems started to occur mostly in 19th century.

I would prefer to add this flavour via province modifiers. I dont know the dev options here, but historically it would be best to give Nitra weak/mediocre ideas (as OP suggested) and:
  • make "Slovak" culture accepted by anyone but with that yellow thingie malus and this cultural modifier would be lost in some 1650s or later on (we are talking about some 3 provinces here), this culture cannot be spread but can be changed, therefore losing provincial modifiers
  • provincial modifiers for provinces with Slovak culture: -1 unrest, +10% trade power, +10% tax income, +10% production efficiency
something like this would better represent what was going on, Slovaks were okay with Hungarian rule, Slovak region was the most developed one in Hungary, mining industry was strong in central part (im happy they put gold mine there), Poszony/Pressburg was a crowning city of Hungary for a while (there could be an event with this, some lower development cost or something, during 1563-1830 eleven monarchs were crowned in Bratislava - it could be something dynamic like Lubeck krantor provincial modifier, when playing Hungary you could get an event to make Pozsony a crowning city which could give you +1 legitimacy as long as you control the province) and there is this huge castle in Spiš region along with this important trade route mentioned above.

So those are my 2 cents, i think Slovak region deserves this kind of "special" treatment due to its historical importance (adoption of christianity was actually very important for whole central/eastern Europe development, especially because rulers in that time received missionaries from several churches...) and position of this area within Hungary.
 
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It adds nothing to the game. In the hands of a player it's a wasted slot; in the hands of an AI it's nothing interesting to overcome except that it automatically paints a target on that particular AI's nation to prevent the spreading of it.

+1.

It adds nothing to the game, just drains resources. As a modifier/design concept it needs a rework badly.
 

sparta105

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genetically speaking no, today hungarians are 50% slovak while Slovaks are 80% genetically tied to people living in the same area 8000 years ago. Those oldschool hungarians are almost completely gone now (this can traced in Sforza´s genetic study made in Standford, partial studies were conducted for example in Wales, Hungary and Slovakia). Hungarians were pretty much assimilated by Slovaks and other groups (Prison of nations?), "szlachta" (as Poland has it in the game) just pretended to be hungarian and learned/spoke hungarian mostly for political reasons. This is all of course politically incorrect for many countries these days (even though many Hungarian researchers and historians were saying this since like 19th century).

Also, the real archeological research in Slovakia is still very weak, there are sites with high chance of being former cities inhabiting thousands of people. We dont know much about these areas before this "migration of nations", main stream history basically says that millions of slavs and other horde tribes came out of nowhere (or frozen wastelands from the ice age...). Anyway, i think this debate is rather pointless, Slovak culture makes sense imo, lets just focus on how to introduce this flavour into the game the best we can.

You misunderstand me. I'm not against Slovakian being in the game: in fact it's quite the opposite! I'm really happy that they finally made it in! This gives Hungary a much needed diversity and I'm always happy when new cultures are added in general. I will acknowledge my mistake of calling out OP on the origin of the Slovakians: you're from Slovakia, you have better access to those kinds of sources therefore you know better and I shouldn't be such a blabbermouth. So please accept my most humble apologies! :) I didn't mean to insult anyone.

As from a gameplay perspective, Slovakian HAS to be in the Carpathian group to keep Hungary competitive against the Ottomans and Austria. Upper Hungary is the richest area of the entirity of the Carpathian Basin (at least right now, I have no idea how Transylvania will be affected by the map changes) which is exlusivly Slovakian now.

As for ideas:
Slovaks never attacked anyone so peacefull and defensive focus is the way to go.



In my mind we could go a bit crazy here, something like +/- morale in domestic/foreign territory could be introduced, or triggered (offensive/defensive war). That would properly represent the nature of Slovaks (+20% morale in owned province, -20% in foreign province? is this possible?).
Slovakia currently belongs to countries with huge network of castles and has one the biggest castles in Europe (i would prefer province modifier for Spiš castle though, i think it adds more flavour, these biggest castles often played major role in wars, something like +25% defensiveness and -50% maintenance could motivate players to build/keep forts in less lucrative areas as well).
I would enhance Beacon of Christianity, add 1 more tolerance or 1% missionary strength.

Anyway, even though i am from Slovakia i dont think giving "Nitra" too good ideas is the way to go. We lived peacefully for almost 1000 years, problems started to occur mostly in 19th century.

I would prefer to add this flavour via province modifiers. I dont know the dev options here, but historically it would be best to give Nitra weak/mediocre ideas (as OP suggested) and:
  • make "Slovak" culture accepted by anyone but with that yellow thingie malus and this cultural modifier would be lost in some 1650s or later on (we are talking about some 3 provinces here), this culture cannot be spread but can be changed, therefore losing provincial modifiers
  • provincial modifiers for provinces with Slovak culture: -1 unrest, +10% trade power, +10% tax income, +10% production efficiency
something like this would better represent what was going on, Slovaks were okay with Hungarian rule, Slovak region was the most developed one in Hungary, mining industry was strong in central part (im happy they put gold mine there), Poszony/Pressburg was a crowning city of Hungary for a while (there could be an event with this, some lower development cost or something, during 1563-1830 eleven monarchs were crowned in Bratislava - it could be something dynamic like Lubeck krantor provincial modifier, when playing Hungary you could get an event to make Pozsony a crowning city which could give you +1 legitimacy as long as you control the province) and there is this huge castle in Spiš region along with this important trade route mentioned above.

So those are my 2 cents, i think Slovak region deserves this kind of "special" treatment due to its historical importance (adoption of christianity was actually very important for whole central/eastern Europe development, especially because rulers in that time received missionaries from several churches...) and position of this area within Hungary.

Pozsony became the crowning city out of necessity: Székesfehérvár (the original crowning city) fell to the Ottomans in 1541. Pozsony is a major city and is close enough to the Austrian border for the Habsburgs to make it the crowning city.
This is a common theme however: almost everything that was based in the area that was under Ottoman occupation was moved to Upper Hungary (the Archbishpric of Esztergom or even the Parliament of Rákos mező to Pozsony). So I believe that such event should only fire if the Ottomans own the Hungarian Lowlands.
 
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You misunderstand me. I'm not against Slovakian being in the game: in fact it's quite the opposite! I'm really happy that they finally made it in! This gives Hungary a much needed diversity and I'm always happy when new cultures are added in general. I will acknowledge my mistake of calling out OP on the origin of the Slovakians: you're from Slovakia, you have better access to those kinds of sources therefore you know better and I shouldn't be such a blabbermouth. So please accept my most humble apologies! :) I didn't mean to insult anyone.

As from a gameplay perspective, Slovakian HAS to be in the Carpathian group to keep Hungary competitive against the Ottomans and Austria. Upper Hungary is the richest area of the entirity of the Carpathian Basin (at least right now, I have no idea how Transylvania will be affected by the map changes) which is exlusivly Slovakian now.

Pozsony became the crowning city out of necessity: Székesfehérvár (the original crowning city) fell to the Ottomans in 1541. Pozsony is a major city and is close enough to the Austrian border for the Habsburgs to make it the crowning city.
This is a common theme however: almost everything that was based in the area that was under Ottoman occupation was moved to Upper Hungary (the Archbishpric of Esztergom or even the Parliament of Rákos mező to Pozsony). So I believe that such event should only fire if the Ottomans own the Hungarian Lowlands.

For gameplay purposes its only important to establish that Slovaks are western Slavs which is not good for gameplay purposes, thats why i suggested those provincial modifiers and acceptance as that yellow color for anyone. If Nitra had cores and ideas wih increased coring cost then no neighbour should be interested in those provinces. Culture group affeects only:
  • Same culture group (Culture name will be in yellow)
−15% Local tax modifier
−15% Local manpower modifier
  • Different culture group (Culture name will be in red)
−33% Local tax modifier
−2% Local missionary strength
−33% Local manpower modifier
+2 Local unrest

All we have to do is to overcome those negative modifiers (the point is that Slovak are different culture and were historically okay with Hungarian rule, or any other rule for that matter, so if you control those provinces you should not feel underpowered due to different culture and in case you get it to be accepted/green then good for you, you get even more). As for crowning city: yes, everything moved "up" in that time, all nobility. But we have many events like this one firing all over the place, it might as well fire when Ottomans grab first province with Hungarian core (or it could have a chance to fire from that point).
 

SleazyUlmerian

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Mar 17, 2016
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As from a gameplay perspective, Slovakian HAS to be in the Carpathian group to keep Hungary competitive against the Ottomans and Austria.

This is a common theme however: almost everything that was based in the area that was under Ottoman occupation was moved to Upper Hungary (the Archbishpric of Esztergom or even the Parliament of Rákos mező to Pozsony).

Actually, the archbishopric of Esztergom controlled most of Western Slovakia long before then, because city of Esztergom is very close to Slovakian border. Only the actual seat moved to Trnava after the Ottomans conquests and the archbishopric split in two once the Lower Panonia was secured.

Slovak culture must not be in the same culture group as Hungary. It makes as much sense as French getting English into it's culture group. Hungary at that time was multicultural realm with huge cultural turmoil, from Romanians living in Transylvania to Croatians and Serbians, Bosnians, Czechs, Jews, Germans, Slovaks, Ruthenians and Hungarians. Not to mention religious turmoil as well, when after Reformation many local nobles tried to ursurp Transylvania, Upper Hungary and Spiš (Stefan Bockai, Frantisek Rakoczi I. and II. were the most succesful and used Ottoman threat as opening).

If there is one thing Hungary as a kingdom lacked to be competitive with local powers of Poland and Austria it was it's instability, which was shown time and time again during the time Habsburgs integrated it - and eventually had to form political union after Hungarians started to harshly assimilate any culture other than Hungarian and almost collapsed. If anything, Hungary should get positive modifiers negating different culture once Ottomans eat them, since that is the time they had the strongest influence over their population.
 
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For gameplay purposes its only important to establish that Slovaks are western Slavs which is not good for gameplay purposes, thats why i suggested those provincial modifiers and acceptance as that yellow color for anyone. If Nitra had cores and ideas wih increased coring cost then no neighbour should be interested in those provinces. Culture group affeects only:
  • Same culture group (Culture name will be in yellow)
−15% Local tax modifier
−15% Local manpower modifier
  • Different culture group (Culture name will be in red)
−33% Local tax modifier
−2% Local missionary strength
−33% Local manpower modifier
+2 Local unrest

All we have to do is to overcome those negative modifiers (the point is that Slovak are different culture and were historically okay with Hungarian rule, or any other rule for that matter, so if you control those provinces you should not feel underpowered due to different culture and in case you get it to be accepted/green then good for you, you get even more).

Okay, then here's what I propose:
- Move Slovakian to the West Slavic group.
- Give Slovakian culture provinces provincial modifiers: +25% tax, +25% manpower, -2 unrest, +2% local missionary strenght.
- Provincial modifiers are only available if the province(s) is(/are) part of a country whose primary culture is not in the West Slavic group OR Slovakian is not an accepted culture. We don't want to overbuff Hungary in the beginning after all ;)

What do you think? :)

As for crowning city: yes, everything moved "up" in that time, all nobility. But we have many events like this one firing all over the place, it might as well fire when Ottomans grab first province with Hungarian core (or it could have a chance to fire from that point).

Might I suggest that the requirement should be that Pest has to fall to the Ottomans?
 

sparta105

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Actually, the archbishopric of Esztergom controlled most of Western Slovakia long before then, because city of Esztergom is very close to Slovakian border. Only the actual seat moved to Trnava after the Ottomans conquests and the archbishopric split in two once the Lower Panonia was secured.

Pest-Buda was also part of it and in 1541, it was the capital of the country, take that into account too.

Slovak culture must not be in the same culture group as Hungary. It makes as much sense as French getting English into it's culture group. Hungary at that time was multicultural realm with huge cultural turmoil, from Romanians living in Transylvania to Croatians and Serbians, Bosnians, Czechs, Jews, Germans, Slovaks, Ruthenians and Hungarians. Not to mention religious turmoil as well, when after Reformation many local nobles tried to ursurp Transylvania, Upper Hungary and Spiš (Stefan Bockai, Frantisek Rakoczi I. and II. were the most succesful and used Ottoman threat as opening).

If there is one thing Hungary as a kingdom lacked to be competitive with local powers of Poland and Austria it was it's instability, which was shown time and time again during the time Habsburgs integrated it - and eventually had to form political union after Hungarians started to harshly assimilate any culture other than Hungarian and almost collapsed. If anything, Hungary should get positive modifiers negating different culture once Ottomans eat them, since that is the time they had the strongest influence over their population.

Actually, before 1541, it is estimated that about 75-80% of the population of Hungary was Hungarian (not counting Croatia). The problem was that the overall population didn't change in 200 years because of the constant wars with the Ottomans and the raids conducted by both sides. The Lowland was depopulated to the point where you could move from the Southern Carpathians to Pozsony WITHOUT ENCOUNTERING A SINGLE VILLAGE. Or even if you did come across one, it would have been a "ghost town".
The Habsburgs tried to lure as many peasants to the Lowland as they could, after the Ottomans were driven out, by offering lower taxes to those who were willing to move. Naturally this left other parts of the country empty, so they needed able bodies from elsewhere to replace them. Hence the massive relocation of population from Swabia, Serbia and Wallachia which was in the middle of the 18th century. Although it boosted the popultaion to acceptable levels, it did leave the country a multiethnic mess. However, it wouldn't have been a huge problem (since everyone thougth of themselves as "part of Hungary) if it wasn't for the french revolution and Napoleon who spread the idea of nationalism all over Europe.

Hungary entered a death spiral in 1490 after the death of Matthias Crovinus (Mátyás Hunyadi) who left no legitimate heir and was hated by the nobility so much that the new king, Ulászló II had to give them more and more rights to legitimize his rule. He didn't even speak Hungarian (!) so every time he was asked to do something he simply answered: so be it (I don't know how to write the polish version :( ). This left the nobilty to do whatever they wanted and they only wanted more and more wealth for themselves. Meanwhile the royal coffers were emptying and the southern fort line was deteriorating faster and faster. There was essetially no central power to hold the country together. To make matters worse, the Ottomans were right on Hungary's doorstep. In 1521 Nándorfehérvár/Belgrade fell to the Turks and in 1526 the battle of Mohács took place which was the final nail in the country's coffin. In 1541, the Ottomans simply moved and captured Buda with a trick which left the country in shock but it also united everyone behind the goal: to drive the Turks out!

About the religious turmoil: what religious turmoil? The nobility almost exclusivly adopted calvinism in the 16th century (as a middle finger to the Habsburgs) but the archbishop(s) of Esztergom worked really hard to convert everyone back to catholicism in the 17th century. But it was always peaceful, there was no religous persecution or anything like that.
 
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Cicatrix_lenin

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This is my input in the matter. I guess it's a slight improvement on the ones that are already here. I know the values are generic 10 percents but the numbers are the easiest thing to change. Hope you like it.

And maybe someone could think of some missions, events or event chains. Someone more creative than me perhaps? :D


Ideas:

Legacy of Great Moravia
+1 diplomatic reputation

Slovaks are proud of their heritage. Great Moravia was a kingdom which incorporated most of slavic peoples of the region, mantained a good relationship with Byzantium and withstood attacks even from powerful East Francia.

The Glagolitic Script
+1 yearly prestige

The Glagolithic script was the first slavic alphabet ever created in the 9th century by Saint Cyril, a Byzantine monk from Thessaloniki living in Nitra, who sought to make the Bible understandable to the general population. First considered heresy, it was eventually formally approved by Pope Adrian II. It was the basis of Cyrilic script.

Kremnica Mint
-0,10 Yearly Inflation Reduction
Established in 1328, the mint issued several kinds of coins early on, of which the most successful was its ducat. Kremnica ducats were well-known because of their good quality and were considered the hardest currency in Central Europe. For nearly seven centuries it has continuously been producing mint articles.


Castle garisons
-10% land maintenence

Nitra(Slovakia) has the most castles per capita in the world. Castle garrisons are prepared to defend their land at all costs!

Slovakized Czech
30% Better Relations Over Time

Language adopted by most of the Slovak Evangelical intelligence in 16. century, a new form of Biblical Czech reminded our people of the Slavic ethnicity and relations with other Slavic people.

Matej Bel
10% cheaper tech cost

Matej Bel, Slovak and Hungarian polymath, teacher and evangelic priest, created the first Encyclopedia covering the history, geography and economy of the Carpathian region and is considered one of the founding fathers of Enlightenment.


Rudohorie or Mining academy
+10% production efficiency

The mountains of central Nitra(Slovakia) are exceptionally rich with metals such as gold, silver and copper. First mining academy in the world was established in Banská Štiavnica in 1762.


Traditions:

+10% local trade power
+10% tax modifier


Ambition:
+1 Leader(s) without upkeep











 
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Okay, then here's what I propose:
- Move Slovakian to the West Slavic group.
- Give Slovakian culture provinces provincial modifiers: +25% tax, +25% manpower, -2 unrest, +2% local missionary strenght.
- Provincial modifiers are only available if the province(s) is(/are) part of a country whose primary culture is not in the West Slavic group OR Slovakian is not an accepted culture. We don't want to overbuff Hungary in the beginning after all ;)

What do you think? :)

Might I suggest that the requirement should be that Pest has to fall to the Ottomans?

it could be fixed by these modifiers, i would still add +production and trade though (maybe +20% tax, +20% manpower, +20% production and 20% provincial trade power plus lower revolt and increased missionary strength), this would be more interesting than just give it same positive modifiers (i would leave those bonuses there for anyone as long as the culture stays Slovak, would be more realistic), it could be overpowered but Hungary usually does rather poorly from my experience anyway. This modifier should disappear after 1700+ i think with the waves of nationalism stuff.

Pest falling to Ottomans...well, the problem is that AI Ottos are very slow at conquering stuff, i have never seen them push up to Pest within first 100 years, really never, in any patch. Also i think there is no mission for conquering Hungary (there are for Bosnia and Serbia, vassalize Transylvania etc). Ottos controlling Pest is ridiculously harsh condition and the event im suggesting could give you rather small bonus regarding player´s current situation (aka Ottos crushing you, lol):

With the infidel Ottoman armies at our borders the crowning city is in danger, we are facing a difficult choice which will determine the future of our nation!
  • Fortify our capital city! (Pest/capital city receives +25% garrison size, +25% fort defense and -50% fort maintenance for the rest of the campaign)
  • Make Pozsony a crowning city. Its position behind the Danube river will ensure safety for our kings! (Pozsony receives +0,5/1 yearly legitimacy and +25% defensiveness for the rest of the campaign as long as Hungary controls the province)
Conditions:
  • Hungary controls Pest and Pozsony.
  • Ottomans control atleast 1?2?3? provinces with Hungarian cores. (i prefer 1 province)
  • Hungary has truce with Ottomans. (to avoid just selling them one province)

Maybe im way too crazy for these special provincial modifiers but i love micromanaging stuff and using these bonuses, when i play as Sweden i always turn those 3 province in the middle into production centers. Terrain in Slovak province is farmlands with grain (i think) and then mountains with gold and copper, pretty expensive to develop so these modifiers would not break the game.