Is it just me are the Ottomans pathetically crushed by 1500 in most games? First Spain conquers all of Morocco and North Africa and then they take nearly all of Greece! What can be done to make the Ottomans more likely to form an Empire?
The Failoman Empire
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In my current Castille/Spain game, the Ottos started off really well, smashing through Hungary with impunity and generally scaring everyone. Then it just suddenly, inexplicably crumbled. The Byzantines have re-emerged as a Muslim Sultinate, and several other countries in Asia Minor have taken advantage of the Ottos' weak state.
While I don't want to see them be a blob in every game, it would be good for them to have the potential to be the menace they were in history (from a Christian European perspective).
While I don't want to see them be a blob in every game, it would be good for them to have the potential to be the menace they were in history (from a Christian European perspective).
In my Mughal game, they were doing pretty well (conquered most of the Balkans and Hungary) at 1500ish. Then they got dishonorable scum. Then war were declared. France, Austria, England, Norway, Sweden, Castille, Aragon, Hungary, Bohemia, Naples, Venice, Lithuania, and Georgia. Byzantium, Wallachia, and Moldavia reformed during that war and also declared war. I decided to jump in myself and grab what I could before everyone peaced out removing the bad boy casus. By time they were peaced with everyone, they were a 3 province minor, with rebellions on two of the provinces.
This is generally how the Ottomans almost always die in my games. They conquer a lot, but then just get into a super war with every major Euro power with no allies of their own due to infamy or otherwise unhealthy aggression, and then just get torn to ribbons.
This is generally how the Ottomans almost always die in my games. They conquer a lot, but then just get into a super war with every major Euro power with no allies of their own due to infamy or otherwise unhealthy aggression, and then just get torn to ribbons.
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In one of my games, they were doing well until Austria ate most of Hungary and got a border...then Austria proceeded to holy war their way to Aleppo and Siberia.
In my game they are just great, having thr Balkans and Turkey under control. And for northern africa, it is united under the banner of Morocco.
I've seen them gobble up the entire North African coastline and take over half of Italy. Yet they also have this huge urge to overextend and crumble, which in my games usualy happens once they've extended into the Mamluk territory (take over half, followed by massive rebellions on the homefront).
It's quite random what will happen to it, but otoh I like how Greece frees itself compared to the old games where the Ottomans simply butchered all in sight till they reached the baltic.
I always hated how they would be almost impossible to quel in the past (in part due to not being able to make peace with vassals tbh, much like France, IMO vassals should not be immune to peace negotiations, rather than annexing though, I think you should be able to "free them from their masters" if conquered and held for a period of time, without forcing the master to accept.).
It's quite random what will happen to it, but otoh I like how Greece frees itself compared to the old games where the Ottomans simply butchered all in sight till they reached the baltic.
I always hated how they would be almost impossible to quel in the past (in part due to not being able to make peace with vassals tbh, much like France, IMO vassals should not be immune to peace negotiations, rather than annexing though, I think you should be able to "free them from their masters" if conquered and held for a period of time, without forcing the master to accept.).
The problem with the OE is that they don't tech up nearly as well as their western counter parts. By the time they get borders with Austria and the Italian minors, they are always at least 5 tech levels behind. They simply cannot win a war after 1500 due to their size:research ratio.
Perhaps they need their own unique tech group; it could have the same speed as Latin, but different troop types.
Perhaps they need their own unique tech group; it could have the same speed as Latin, but different troop types.
the problem is the Ai ignors badboy. This is why spain takes land while it's supposed to be defending the knights and why the ottomens colapse due to badboy wars
Give the Ottos cores on the other turkish provinces, this makes them succeed more often than not but they don't become overpowered.
I thought my current game was unfolding like this. Early on, England and Spain ate most of the Balkans, Spain was taking Egypt and splitting the rest of North Africa with Portugal, then... BAM, Ottoman revival. I think removing the guarantees helps save the Ottomans. They weren't added to destroy the Turk, they were put there to make Byzantine games harder, I think.
The Ottos also have a problem with the Timruds to the east if you start at 1399. If you start at 1453, the Ottos have a better chance of surviving and expanding, but that won't stop the bad boy wars.
I have personally only seen the Ottomans survive a few times (they tend to collapse and be taken over by the Byzantine Empire). The one time they did truly become a monster, just eating all of the Balkans, and a good chunk of Hungary IIRC, they then just got demolished by Austria, who now controls the entirety of the Balkans with the exception of Thrace. I have IN so I do not know if this has been corrected in HTTT, but I think one of the big problems is Austria receiving the mission to drive them out of the Balkans. Once they get this mission, the Austrians acquire a bloodyminded determination to wipe the Ottomans off the face of the map.
I think a solution to that problem could be to make the ai seek out the slider moves for the westernization decision if it can see it. this would also help with the ottos converting everything to islam.
The AI probably wouldn't be able to handle the RR of westernization. It would be better if neighbor bonuses carried partially across tech groups so if Eastern tech group nation borders western ones they would get 50% of the normal neighbor bonus, Muslim tech group would get 25%, etc.
AI Ottomans need more of an incentive to take on the Mamluks et al instead of wasting time and resources in the Balkans.
This is my observation, too. I once saw the Ottomans expanding very well, taking a number of provinces and keeping Europe on its toes. Then it got enough provinces to switch from Despotic Monarchy to Imperial Administration, meaning that their BB cap was 10 points lower, and suddenly everyone was DoWing them with the new CB.
I even edited the savegame to take their BB down to a manageable level, but they screwed it up by going over again, and by that time the other major powers already had a foothold in the region.
I think one problem is that Austria has all those anti-Turk missions. The one to drive the Turks out of the Western Balkans is especially crazy. Basically, Austria will never leave the Turks alone, even if they don't share a border.