• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Meezermouzer

Second Lieutenant
49 Badges
Apr 18, 2012
145
230
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Sword of the Stars
  • War of the Roses
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
Let me start out by saying I enjoyed this game. I use to play Medieval 2: Total War often but it usually got boring because it was nothing but battles. It was lacking and a lot of what I thought it needed wound up in Crusader Kings 2 (miracle). But I have to say the faction system has in many ways made the game frustrating. It seems every time I look around if a vassal doesn't have a 100 relationship with me they are either starting a faction to support a candidate to dethrone me or demanding independence. All you need is one measly count to start an independence faction and everyone will jump on board. You bribe that count and everyone else who supported him stay in the faction, even times when their relationship is at 90 with you. And if by some miracle the faction disbands someone else will start another independence faction almost immediately afterwards and yet again everyone else will jump on board. This is obviously especially true when my character dies and my heir takes over. Even though all my vassals have a positive opinion of my new leader, the AI finds it is in its best interest to support anything and everything because their relationship isn't at 100 and my leader has had a "short reign".

It's almost like this game is programmed so that there's a civil war after every new leader takes over, even though none of the vassals have legitimate claims but because they need to start some kind of conflict--any conflict--they will push for independence. Considering the relationship rating is on a scale of 200, from -100 to 100, I find it ridiculous that a vassal with 30 or higher relationship would be inclined to go to war with their liege. IMO I think AI should only be able to start factions and join factions if they meet a certain power threshold and their relationship is negative with their liege. It seems to me the AI doesn't consider benefits of having its liege, whether its liege is de jure, probably of its success, loyalty to house of leader even if its prestigious and powerful and has held the title for 200 years, or any other reasonable factors, but only the relationship number and that's it. And that needs to be changed so this game can once again provide an enjoyable experience like it use to.
 

Avernite

Field Marshal
75 Badges
Apr 15, 2003
6.843
7.199
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
I would agree the numbers are a bit odd, but the problem is that even the biggest idiot can ensure positive relations with just about everyone. At least by putting the threshold at 80 some factions actually develop.

That said, succession is a bit TOO rebellion-prone. Sure, if a regency comes to power for a snot-nosed, sickly child... but if a handsome 25 year old proven soldier comes to rule, they shouldn't be quite as rebellious. A short reign penalty, for example, could be reduced by (heir age-16)/2, so that a known quantity on the throne will suffer less. Perhaps, in the opposite direction, also add to the short reign penalty by (16-heir age)/2, so that a child regency really sucks. Plus, of course, more vassals choosing crown authority factions, less choosing independence.


Alas, solving these problems entirely would require a reworking of relations. Even a dejure same culture ruler should have ambitious vassals actually disliking him bar specific action, rather than the current +20-ish relation once you're out of very short reigns.
 

unmerged(589171)

Corporal
1 Badges
Nov 6, 2012
36
0
  • Crusader Kings II
I'm not convinced. The game doesn't tell you why your vassals desire Independence, but opinion is actually only part of the cause. If we look through \Crusader Kings II\common\objectives\00_factions.txt, the things worth noting are:

- Vassals of your culture and religion will never create Independence, unless he is a King 200+ units from your capital
- Vassals of your culture and religion group will not create Independence, apart from Kings
- Distance has an effect on revolts
- Opinion has an effect on revolts
- Traits have an effect on revolts (Ambitious people are 4x as likely!)

In conclusion, stopping Independence revolts is very simple. Let one happen when you are in a good position to win. Win the war, revoke the highest titles of all participants. Grant those titles to characters of your religion and culture. Only create Kings near your capital. Doing all this doesn't just reduce Independence revolts, it disables them entirely.

No, the AI doesn't consider likelihood of success, loyalty or prestige, and it barely even cares for Opinion. It only cares about evicting the foreign mongrels lording over him.
 

Gnostiko

βασιλεύς καὶ αὐτοκράτωρ
72 Badges
Sep 17, 2009
702
119
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
As the Byzantine Emperor, why do I have the Duke of Achaia, who is Greek and Orthodox agitating for Independence?
Wherever possible, I try to give titles to vassals of the same culture and religion, but I'm seeing a hell of a lot of Independence Factions.

Agree completely with OP. Really does seem the AI wants to start a faction simply because it can. Pay off an Independence faction leader and irritatingly, another, different one starts up!
 

Iron Chariots

Colonel
63 Badges
Jun 11, 2012
859
748
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I rarely see too many factions and I'm quite the tyrant. I don't know what you guys are doing.
 

ywhtptgtfo

General
78 Badges
Dec 30, 2011
2.492
33
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
I stopped playing CKII (at 1.08) after seeing a huge independence faction that just won't go away (many with very positive opinions). And interestingly, many of them are also of same religion and culture.
 

parachute

Captain
5 Badges
May 26, 2005
336
2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
CK2 is a lot about babysitting your dukes. After a couple of hours I realized how much easier the game is if some attention is paid to micromanaging the vassals.

Some factors to consider:

1) Educate your duke's heirs (your dukes MUST be of the same culture+religion)
2) Educate your duke's heirs (go for the right traits: kind/just/content/etc), big dukes are great when they have the content trait))
3) Educate your dukes: If they are in a regency and your king is young: educate them yourself (same traits + mentor bonus), if your king is old: have your heir educate them.
4) Be educated by your dukes: If they are ambitious: Send your heir to learn. They will like you and your heir.
5) Imprison everybody with terrible traits (ambitious) as soon as the opportunity is right. The can't join factions when imprisoned. Some guy spending 30 years in prison? Perfect for a stable realm!
6) Bribe the pope, don't be a hunchback, don't banish anyone if your dukes are more powerful than you.
7) Destroy duchies if you absolutely MUST have this 5 slot county in your demesne.
8) Send the pretenders to the monastry.
9) Get some allies.

etc.
 

swm

Major
76 Badges
May 21, 2012
597
6
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Prison Architect
I agree wholeheartedly. The factional system, for me at least, is the worst aspect of this game by far. For newbies in particular, it's game-breaking.

I've thrown out a number of games because they became endless civil war nightmares that, best case scenario, ended with me banishing or executing my entire nobility. I don't think that happened very much historically, and it certainly wasn't any fun to play. :glare:

The problems I have:
  1. Vassals are too happy to rebel without a strategic reason (I'm going to declare independence between the HRE and the Fatimids, this can only end well!)
  2. The cut-off point for vassal rebellions too high. +80 should be "I utterly adore you and would follow you to the ends of the Earth, my liege," not "I can just barely put up with your rule"
  3. Vassals in revolt get too many bonuses. The 50k death-stacks from nowhere were patently cheating to begin with. The fact that they can apparently call your loyal vassals (that weren't in the faction), without an alliance, and the vassal in question will accept just for having greater relations with the revolter (and isn't considered a traitor in that I can't revoke his title) is too much.*
  4. Factions can press your claims without your consent (see below).

This is made even worse if you started as a vassal and were put on the throne mid-game by a revolt. By this point the AI's inability to handle it's own vassals (for instance, having a super duke the size of De-Jure France :rolleyes:) have made a future revolt unwinnable. I've been forced to abandon 2 games by having a factional revolt put me on the throne (thus forcing me to give up all my duchies to avoid the too many duchies penalty), only to have another revolt overthrow me 10 seconds after succession. The penalty for losing the second revolt is rage-quit inducing. You've essentially lost all progress from your starting position. You don't have claims on the duchies you gave to these ingrates, and there's no chance you're getting the kingdom back without another absurdly lucky factional revolt. That's simply too much to lose in one war.

My apologies if this sounds like (or is) a rant, but as I said in the first sentence, this is literally the worst part of the game in my opinion.

How I'd fix it:

  1. Remove the free death stacks entirely. No, giving them attrition is not enough. If the faction can't succeed without cheating, then it shouldn't succeed.
  2. Drop the threshold where vassals stop joining factions. Not as low as zero, but at most 50 or 60. It should be possible to go one succession without a major revolt.
  3. Require claimant factions to get the consent of the claimant, and don't imprison the claimant if the faction fails and he didn't give consent.
  4. Make the entire system more transparent. If a de-jure, correct culture, correct religion vassal can't join the Independence faction, then say that.
  5. Factions are openly conspiring against the Lord. He should have some ability to break them before they're too strong. Allowing imprisonment or title revocation is the most extreme option, but even the ability to assassinate or bribe a faction member could help. The scheme tool exists, but it isn't reliable and works one vassal at a time.
  6. Improve the AI. Make them need a strategic reason to revolt. There is an advantage to being a Vassal of a powerful state (particularly if you're next to the Fatimids or Golden Horde). Vassals should not seek anything just because, that's arbitrary and immersion breaking.

*A footnote: This is what I believe is happening. If I'm wrong, I apologize. Consider this footnote another argument for more transparency.
 

Naltharial

Second Lieutenant
101 Badges
Nov 16, 2012
111
28
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Ancient Space
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Necroids
My total count of faction-started wars in a 150 year play to restore the Roman Empire: 0.
Realm size: 800+.

Seriously, marry Geniuses and educate your heirs (cannot overstate that, never follow parachute's advice) for diplomacy. All problems forever solved.
Also, attractive female rulers get +20 to male vassal opinions. Just saying.

Factions should have additional reasons which have weaker demands and are harder to dismiss. So, I'd consider a buff to their strength.
 

Asa_TJ

Major
138 Badges
Jan 15, 2013
503
275
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Impire
  • Magicka 2
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Ancient Space
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • March of the Eagles
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris
  • War of the Vikings
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Divine Wind
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Sengoku
  • Semper Fi
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
That said, succession is a bit TOO rebellion-prone. Sure, if a regency comes to power for a snot-nosed, sickly child... but if a handsome 25 year old proven soldier comes to rule, they shouldn't be quite as rebellious.

+100
 

swm

Major
76 Badges
May 21, 2012
597
6
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Prison Architect
My total count of faction-started wars in a 150 year play to restore the Roman Empire: 0.
Realm size: 800+.

Seriously, marry Geniuses and educate your heirs (cannot overstate that, never follow parachute's advice) for diplomacy. All problems forever solved.
Also, attractive female rulers get +20 to male vassal opinions. Just saying.

Factions should have additional reasons which have weaker demands and are harder to dismiss. So, I'd consider a buff to their strength.

How does that work? First of all, it's not guaranteed that your heir will get the genius trait. It's only a 15% inherit chance. I've been doing something similar with stewardship (force of habit, I'm going to switch to Diplomacy soon), and I can only reliably get 18-19 points.

18-19 diplomacy would help, but it wouldn't guarantee no factions. At best it would cancel out the short reign.
 

Mauer

Swarmherald
100 Badges
Oct 7, 2012
3.695
2.553
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
The only time I've had major problems with factions was once when I decided to play the duke of Brittany, all your vassals are somehow stronger than you, so putting down any single revolt required hiring mercenaries, I didn't play more than a couple years.

Other than that I've noticed factions may start to become a problem if you're too ambitious, trying to get new lands when your previous conquests haven't been properly settled or your vassal relations are too shaky. Successful revolts beget more rebels, which is great in my opinion.

And 30 relations isn't a great amount by any one's standards, it simply means they don't *hate* you, not enough reason not to try and declare independence for example. Usually if I'm not at 60+ relations with powerful dukes in my realm I won't go to war, try revoke titles or assassinate. And don't call more levies than you need for wars, raise them from your most loyal vassals first.
 

Naltharial

Second Lieutenant
101 Badges
Nov 16, 2012
111
28
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Ancient Space
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Necroids
How does that work? First of all, it's not guaranteed that your heir will get the genius trait. It's only a 15% inherit chance. I've been doing something similar with stewardship (force of habit, I'm going to switch to Diplomacy soon), and I can only reliably get 18-19 points.

18-19 diplomacy would help, but it wouldn't guarantee no factions. At best it would cancel out the short reign.
18-19 diplomacy, coupled with any of Just, Kind, Charitable, Gregarious, etc. will be very close to guaranteeing it.

You're also refering to "heir" in singular. As I mentioned as another suggestion, Elective. +20 to vassal relations and you get to handpick an heir from your close family. One heir has 15% chance, but 8 of them are far more likely to get it.
 

swm

Major
76 Badges
May 21, 2012
597
6
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Prison Architect
18-19 diplomacy, coupled with any of Just, Kind, Charitable, Gregarious, etc. will be very close to guaranteeing it.

You're also refering to "heir" in singular. As I mentioned as another suggestion, Elective. +20 to vassal relations and you get to handpick an heir from your close family. One heir has 15% chance, but 8 of them are far more likely to get it.

Maybe I just haven't figured it out yet, but I've had bad experiences with elective. I don't understand how people perfectly manipulate their vassals into voting for their candidate. As I recall, I've had vassals at +100 relations vote against me.

I'd also like to call out reliance on elective as game-y. I'm not a history expert, but my understanding is that it existed, but it was neither a guarantee of nor necessary for a stable country.

Edit: On the subjects of the Kind, Gregarious, etc traits. You're correct of course in that those would help, but they shouldn't be necessary to avoid civil war. Kings shouldn't have to be perfect human beings to avoid being overthrown 2 seconds after taking the throne. I'd also argue that it shouldn't be necessary to get a diplomatic education to keep the throne either.

And 30 relations isn't a great amount by any one's standards, it simply means they don't *hate* you, not enough reason not to try and declare independence for example.

But that's exactly the problem. Vassals shouldn't need a reason not to revolt. They should need a reason to revolt. If they want independence, that's fine, but they should be better off for being independent. If they want a new lord, that's fine, but they shouldn't want to overthrow the lord they just installed immediately after one succession. If they want that much control over the monarchy, they should go after elective succession.
 
Last edited:

Mauer

Swarmherald
100 Badges
Oct 7, 2012
3.695
2.553
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
Maybe I just haven't figured it out yet, but I've had bad experiences with elective. I don't understand how people perfectly manipulate their vassals into voting for their candidate. As I recall, I've had vassals at +100 relations vote against me.

I'd also like to call out reliance on elective as game-y. I'm not a history expert, but my understanding is that it existed, but it was neither a guarantee of nor necessary for a stable country.

You have to nominate a candidate they'd vote for even if it's not their first choice, then they'll vote for him/her as long as you have good relations. Gamey would be being able to have anyone elected, you'll have a hard time getting a daughter elected unless she has a very high diplomacy skill and likable traits. But if you educate all your heirs properly your vassals won't have a problem electing one of them. You may have to assassinate a nominee or two if they still refuse to see things your way, but then you start to go the gamey route.
 

Naltharial

Second Lieutenant
101 Badges
Nov 16, 2012
111
28
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Ancient Space
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Impire
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Necroids
Maybe I just haven't figured it out yet, but I've had bad experiences with elective. I don't understand how people perfectly manipulate their vassals into voting for their candidate. As I recall, I've had vassals at +100 relations vote against me.
Sure. Get more vassals. Evens out in a statistically relevant sample. Right now, I've got 25/25 vassals voting for my heir. Their opinion of the heir is important. Since you're educating them for Diplomacy, this is much less of a factor.

I'd also like to call out reliance on elective as game-y. I'm not a history expert, but my understanding is that it existed, but it was neither a guarantee of nor necessary for a stable country.
You're quite free to do so, as I am quite free to laugh at it. Just because some solution works better than yours makes for no ground to dismiss it. I posit that you may wish, or, indeed, be compelled, to try it before resorting to qualitative assesment, especially handwaved one. Considering Elective system is the only system that lets you lose your titles with a single serious mistake, I'd have to invite you to try it and arrive to the conclusion that it's simply a riskier system with better payouts.

Edit: On the subjects of the Kind, Gregarious, etc traits. You're correct of course in that those would help, but they shouldn't be necessary to avoid civil war. Kings shouldn't have to be perfect human beings to avoid being overthrown 2 seconds after taking the throne. I'd also argue that it shouldn't be necessary to get a diplomatic education to keep the throne either.
And it isn't. I'm just telling you how to assure avoiding one. Just because it's not neccessary to avoid being shot, it doesn't mean wearing bulletproof vest is bad.
 

takedown47

Grand Strategist
24 Badges
Oct 24, 2007
3.544
1.280
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Deus Vult
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
people will shot me for saying this but get your hands on CK2+, factions are no longer glorified plots, they actually mean something. people can belong to a religious, court, princely separatist or republican faction.
 

Heatth

General
71 Badges
Apr 1, 2012
2.058
3.917
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
people will shot me for saying this but get your hands on CK2+, factions are no longer glorified plots, they actually mean something. people can belong to a religious, court, princely separatist or republican faction.

While I do agree, I don't think this is the place for that. Most of people don't play CK2+ for variated reasons (including not liking all its features). The answer for someone pointing a flaw in vanilla shouldn't be "play a mod".

And 30 relations isn't a great amount by any one's standards, it simply means they don't *hate* you, not enough reason not to try and declare independence for example. Usually if I'm not at 60+ relations with powerful dukes in my realm I won't go to war, try revoke titles or assassinate. And don't call more levies than you need for wars, raise them from your most loyal vassals first.

That is the thing. 30 relations shouldn't be a bad amount at all. Sure, you aren't loved, but you vassal still likes you. They shouldn't be going against you for no reason.
 

darthfanta

Basileus Basileōn
65 Badges
Apr 22, 2012
3.773
176
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
Funny enough, the dukes who tried to be independent were always those who had my culture as well as being part of my DYNASTY. Even more ridiculous is the part that dukes with 100 relations sometimes want to secede.I suspect that as long as de jure shift hasn't been finished, they would continue to plot to secede.
 
Last edited: