Indonesia -
Right so were all dead.
China isn't honoring its treaty to export pops, and is now the top player. China will destroy us all. Most of you are thinking oh I'll just by and hope he leaves me alone, he is gonna kill us one at a time Sad and then when its too late will you all try to stop him.
His industry is huge, its taking all my effort just to keep up and im running out of pops to do that with.
As for Germany cant we just wp that mess? assuming Germany gives the go ahead?
Finland/Russia -
"His industry is huge, its taking all my effort just to keep up and im running out of pops to do that with."
Nice logic...so if Indonesia gets to be the largest, what prevents it to kill us all....???
Indonesia -
Finland/Russia wrote:
"Nice logic...so if Indonesia gets to be the largest, what prevents it to kill us all....???"
I've been actively helping the smaller players giving real tips, helped japan fight the liberal rev, im heading an army over to help Norway/UK. I am a peace keeper, and peaceful industrialist in vicky. I have not built more troops or more ships, and in fact have disbanded some. the only remotely hostile action ive taken is asking Georgia the price of Australia and new zealand. My interests lay in the unclaimed pacific colonies and that is the only regions i foresee causing any sort of dispute for me and others.
China has done no such foreign aid, and some of his so called tips were down right wrong in order to mislead others. China has built a bigger army, and is actively stocking up on military hardware. he already been caught cheating to make his mobilization pool larger than it should be. China has also threatened many of us. And do believe there was some name calling in there somewhere.
So please Finland/Russia, actually check the facts before you accuse me of being the one trying to take over the world.
EDIT:
Side note for those PEACE LOVING nations out there, Indonesia has decent supply of Steamers that i can offer up for trade. Let me know if anyone needs any (note they are used for making colonies just as much as making ships)
Finland/Russia -
So says the nation that was most expansionist in Asia for last 500 years, who constantly backstabbed his allies, and mongered of war several occasions and delured the peacefull Orthodoxians with multible campaings of missinformation, lieas and propaganda.
When have china ever done such thing?
When Have china attacked anyone?
Facts are subjective as anything. After china attacks someones, kills someone, then I can start listening this sinophophical rant
Indonesia -
Finland/Russia wrote:
"So says the nation that was most expansionist in Asia for last 500 years, who constantly backstabbed his allies, and mongered of war several occasions and delured the peacefull Orthodoxians with multible campaings of missinformation, lieas and propaganda.
When have china ever done such thing?
When Have china attacked anyone?
Facts are subjective as anything. After china attacks someones, kills someone, then I can start listening this sinophophical rant"
The vast majority of my expansion was against AI's. Check my previous vicky games, I expand as much as possible sometimes pissing off my neighbors into AI lands, and rarely start wars with my player neighbors.
I clearly remember it was you who backstabbed me, and attacked me! I did not raise a finger at you untill you did so first, and I have numerous chat logs showing my attempts at keeping peace with you. Now that said, I have mongered in the past, nearly always against a stronger foe or potentially stronger foe (China/Georgia or India in some instances)(japan was the only case of weaker foe, and I returned the land peacefully I believe at no cost other than good relations with Japan in the future).
That said I look for peace and coexistence with Finland in vicky, however continue to blatantly support china and will simply continue to push me, and I am sure others who are opposed to china's dominance, away.
The misinformation spree was fault of several nations miscomunication and misunderstanding, and it was sorted out in the end. I should also note at the end of EU3 I had normalized relations with Georgia. Starting my campaign of peacekeeping.
China attacked me, Dai Viet, and Japan (twice i believe) in the eu3 game. Please don't tell me you've forgotten his early attempts to wipe out all his neighbors, and his stated goal of mastery over all Asians? Chinas misinformation sprees are constant, Georgia can confirm that he already tried to spread lies and destroy any chance at a peaceful coexistence in India.
How nice of you to remember your own Chinese tainted views of the world.
Finland/Russia -
After China betrays Finland, or shows aggressive behavior (that is clearly visible in forms of public threaths or DoWs) Finland has no need to start harming its relations to China.
Indonesia -
Sigh you just insist on keeping a blind eye to China. Building an army like he has when he only one of two players in the entire game building up an army shows he has hostile intentions. France is the other, but that is AI! (and I think Von R would be building an army anyways cause its Von R!)
Georgia/MiddleEast -
I think everyone is getting off-topic here, I have been neutral for much of my time in these sessions but I can understand what the concerns are. There really isnt a doubt in my mind of the sneaky little ways China plays.
He has been caught cheating getting his entire mobile reserves cleared out as a penalty.
I think both the pro-china countries and the death to china countries should remove those oh so lovable shaded glasses and address the situation at hand.
1)China has stockpiled massive amounts of weapons and some resources
2)Is currently not following the treaty established in the Europa 3 and is abusing it to his own ends.
Now we all let points 1 go by as they were either dealt with or ignored. Now point 3 is not something I cannot abide by because a Treaty isnt something that is adjusted to your liking after it has come in effect.
According to China, he was given permission to relax the accords of the treaty (i,e, reduce taxes) by Italy. Italy granted this for a couple of months while China tried to figure out how
to get rid of his revolt risk problems. Instead of maintaining it for a couple of months, he maintained it for years, enough that by the END of this session he managed to gain 10 million people.
Now he has 389 million give or take. This in itself is a violation of that treaty and pretty much reneges his word. This unfortunately means that either China resumes his 100 percent with no exceptions and accepts either
a penalty of resources or something similar to account for his abuse of the treaty (thereby pleasing the world somewhat) or he faces a new threat from those who would stand united against him.
Im not pointing out names, Im pointing out facts and options hoping that the concerned parties who are involved this debacle will straighten things out as those around see fit.
Indonesia -
Georgia wrote:
"I think both the pro-china countries and the death to china countries should remove those oh so lovable shaded glasses and address the situation at hand."
Grumble Grumble, Death to China, Grumble Grumble!
Georgia wrote:
"blah blah... This in itself is a violation of that treaty and pretty much reneges his word."
Indeed China has violated his treaty and some sort of action needs to be taken against him. I hereby commission Norway/UK to add the Embargo feature to the game, keeping China's paws off my resources.
That aside, seriously. Anyone who thinks China is not taking an aggressive stance here is obviously not playing our game, Finland might need to get his internet connection checked for unreported OOS caused by lag, which created a mirror game he played in, in which china is a big teddy bear.
I would like to remind everyone, when Germany marched into the Rhineland, then and only then could Hitler have been stopped with causing WW2. We are facing a mirror situation here, and I can't help but feel if we do not put our foot down somewhere, China will go after it neighbors and continue until it consumes the entire world.
All this said I do not want a war with China, however China is now the world's biggest threat by far, I see little other choice then to threaten war Sad China will just continue to keep on getting stronger, and at a rate that will far exceed anyone else's potential to catch up to him. Your guys call on what we do, or even can do anything at this point.
Sigh. Defeat is inevitable.
Norway/UK -
Touching the treaty: It seems clear that Blayne is in breach of it; his poor taxes in the 1848 and 1849 saves are at 64.8%. Interestingly, they are at 100% in the final save, for which there was some warning. However, the relevant clause of the rules is, I think, this one:
# Treaties of non-aggression, alliance, etc, are only enforced by the honour of the players. However, where an exchange is agreed to that would, in reality, be instantaneous, but which requires more than one step due to game mechanics, it must be honoured. For example, "Sell me province X and I will sell you province Y".
An agreement to keep taxes at 100% for some period is plainly not instantaneous. I am open to arguments to the contrary, but at this time it looks to me as though this treaty is not GM-enforceable. I suggest that the aggrieved parties get together some armies and attack. I further suggest that, since all nations have a common interest in the sanctity of treaties, everybody else join the said aggrieved parties. Indeed, I pledge the Norwegian armies and navy to such an attack as soon as Germany ceases to make war on me; and as noted, I'm willing to WP, although I could probably win something a bit better. (I'm not eager to punish carillon for having a stupid AI; we're all in that boat together. Besides, war is always a chancy business. Big Grin )
It is an excellent principle of international diplomacy that pacta sunt servanda, treaties must be honoured; a nation which does not keep its word is an outlaw, a wolf's-head, and the common enemy of all - to coin a phrase, a rogue state. I therefore call for a coalition of all the law-abiding powers, to have the following war aims:
# China to pay reparations to all participating powers.
# China to be humiliated by each participating power.
# China to conform to the terms of the Treaty of Shanghai. To ensure compliance, several coastal regions to be annexed to participating powers, and not returned until the Treaty has been observed.
Africa -
I am willing to abide with the GM's decision in this matter, so thank you, Norway/UK, for clearing the issue.
I pledge to not interfere with any country doing the necessary acts towards China in order to force it to submit to the treaties it agreed to in the past.
Italy/America -
Indonesia wrote:
"I would like to remind everyone, when Germany marched into the Rhineland, then and only then could Hitler have been stopped with causing WW2. We are facing a mirror situation here, and I can't help but feel if we do not put our foot down somewhere, China will go after it neighbors and continue until it consumes the entire world."
I will say this once and then never speak of it again. I find it amusing in a morbid sense that the very same arguments brought forth by myself before, in the EU3 era, now resurface. Then China was, to continue along the nazi parallell, a bunch of loud-mouthed brownshirts whom could have relatively easily been dealth with. Yet only France and Italy stepped up to actually mount an invasion, with the consequence that the outcome of war was uncertain enough to make the Shanghai Treaty worth signing. Thus sowing the seeds for the current situation. What's done is done, but let's remember this situation the next time someone raises fear of a player nation.
In principle I support the claims as outlined by Norway/UK. The violation of the treaty by China and China's inability to acknowledge and make amends for its wrong-doings, coupled with the blatant cheating attempts, is insulting to all of us. Therefore I would strongly suggest that if China, as it claims, really strive for peace and honour then this is the time to prove it to the world.
Indonesia -
Norway/UK wrote:
"It is an excellent principle of international diplomacy that pacta sunt servanda, treaties must be honoured; a nation which does not keep its word is an outlaw, a wolf's-head, and the common enemy of all - to coin a phrase, a rogue state. I therefore call for a coalition of all the law-abiding powers, to have the following war aims:
# China to pay reparations to all participating powers.
# China to be humiliated by each participating power.
# China to conform to the terms of the Treaty of Shanghai. To ensure compliance, several coastal regions to be annexed to participating powers, and not returned until the Treaty has been observed."
Excellent to hear, and indeed, Treaties must be honoured; it is our responsibility to force the issue for if we don't do it what will become of future treaties? The precedent will be set for not living up to them! Not only that we now know China can NOT be trusted on such issues, and indeed is rogue state.
The Indonesian Confederacy has decided in favour of a multinational coalition of the law-abiding powers, and the above stated terms to force China's compliance.
That said Indonesia apologizes to Italy and France for sitting on the fence in the past, hoping that others do not make the same mistake that we did then, now.
I also will also put forward an action plan to help the economies of others around the world who would join us in standing up to China's disregard for international diplomacy. Such a action plan would on a principle of the lend lease providing items to those who might not be able to acquire them on the open market.
I stand with Italy in saying that China has one last chance to make peace stick with the world.
And in the great words of a citizen of United Italian States of America "United we Stand, Divided we Fall."
CHINA -
Firstly Statutes of Limitations, I cannot be held responsible for any alledged aggression I may have or may have not done at the very beginning of Europa Universalis Three, wars come and go, we're supposed to be a little bit flexible with my diplomacy but a few nitpicks:
a) Firstly I had declared Tibet de facto and de jure a protectorate of China you attacked it despite these warnings.
b) Japan's player at the time dowed me, I did not dow Japan.
c) so far by MY count you have attacked me three times Indonesia all in support of imperialist aggressors.
d) whether you out of game helped players is beyond the point and irrelevent, I've helped a couple of players myself with their connection issues as best as I can and helped Finland/Russia get used to Ricky and gave much positive commentary to other people.
Next, arguments for "attacking me when i was weak" in EU3 frankly, don't talk about, don't mention it, or else we're done, I won't talk to you or treat you in any way ever again, you will be considered no more then AI in all diplomatic matters, I don't want to ever hear from anyone ever again saying "I should have been stopped in EU3" you are all in theory intelligent players it should be easy to understand the stupity and utter mental retardation of such a statement and will not elaborate on it further other then say if you mention it as a plausible and serious course of action that should have been taken against JUST SO I WOULDNT BE STRONG IN VICTORIA the above applies, I will nolonger consider you a player in this campaign for all effective purposes and will treat you as I would AI, not to be spoken to or responded to this applies to ANYONE and EVERYONE except Africa as I already treat him as no more then AI and refuse any contact more then is nessasary for a smooth game. I am ABSOLUTELY serious, I do not want to hear about this "shoulda annexed/partitioned me in eu3" ever again.
Thirdly, the treaty was not posted in the forums, the treaty was not "specified" with much detail other then "in case a do x, and in case b do y maybe" what you said to my mind was simple "tax at 100% and lose 150 million with possible decision to make it 100 million if there's alot of emmigration (which there is), so simply speaking if I choose to tax and lose 20 million, wait until I recover that 20 million and then tax again until the total population lost is equal to 150 million then I am in complete accord with the treaty as said, it was never made specific that it had to be all at once, which I might add accomplishes essentially what you want, my population locked in stasis while everyone else gains a large boost through my emmigration, that I am not reduced to say Georgia's population.... well tough cookies. With the sheer badboy from simply being China I have I have no doubt that once I seemed weak enough you all would and will attack anyways no matter how strictly I abide by your unequal treaty.
Fourthly, since I am not in any violation of the Treaty of Shanghai I thus see no reason to accept such a grave insult as to accept Norways suggestion and decline it post haste, of course we could maybe have neutral mediation on the matter, but I only see Finland as being said neutral party as it seems the vast majority of everyone else is clearly out to get me.
Fithly can we please all ignore Africa who is clearly not being constructive in the least, you all clearly have options the game's ending isn't for sure yet thngs will rebalance out in hearts of iron 3 and its impossible to do a world conquest even as china in a multiplayer game, it is simply impossible for me to have an economy large enough to support an army large enough to overwhelm the rest, large enough for a Fortress China maybe but not enough for anything else.
And to retaliate for Indonesia's blatant warmonger the Imperial Chinese Federation will withdraw its ambassadors from Malacca City to be returned when Indonesia sees fit to treat its long term neighbor with respect and dignity and cease spreading misinformation, propaganda, and to most definitely cease and desist this slander about our Great Nation on the world stage and in finality to act as a decent and mature nation that sees fit to use calm and rational diplomacy and not yippy kay ya cowboy diplomacy to solve all its perceived problems and overcompensation for manhood issues.
Finland/Russia -
Republic of Finland Is officially Neutral state and doesen't lift its ear to any warmongering rants. We only defend ourselves and our Allies if attacked. If our allies attack someone, we are not involved in any offensive warfare.
As what comes to the past and the end phase of Eu3 and only Italy and france beeing noble and bla, bla, bla, bla....
I must express my amusment now as the treaty you hastily came up isen't holding its grounds.
If the arrogant and chauvinist western states would have paid bit more attention to the dynamics of Far east they would have known that to gt a good agreement with China usually takes Finland as a medium.
In the mentioned case, Finland came aware of the "plans to do something to china" when Our ally was DoWed.
Perhaps (as I preserve the rigth to be hindsighted this time) Italy and France should have approached us before hand...Now you reap what you've sown.
Italy/America -
"Thirdly, the treaty was not posted in the forums, the treaty was not "specified" with much detail other then "in case a do x, and in case b do y maybe" what you said to my mind was simple "tax at 100% and lose 150 million with possible decision to make it 100 million if there's alot of emmigration (which there is), so simply speaking if I choose to tax and lose 20 million, wait until I recover that 20 million and then tax again until the total population lost is equal to 150 million then I am in complete accord with the treaty as said, it was never made specific that it had to be all at once, which I might add accomplishes essentially what you want, my population locked in stasis while everyone else gains a large boost through my emmigration, that I am not reduced to say Georgia's population..."
It was clear from the start that the objective was to reduce the Chinese population. The fact that natural population growth cannot be halted, and thus the final Chinese population not being a clear-cut drop by 150 million does not alter that. There was never any mention of allowing "pauses" to let population recover. Indeed, it was always clear that China would tax 100% from the start until population had dropped sufficiently. It makes a significant difference since if you hover around 400 million rather than drop to, say, 300 million, your population growth would be much faster once you didn't have to tax your population any more. That you were very well aware of this is obvious from your behaviour: instead of coming clean about your "population recovery pause", you claimed you needed a few months break (which turned out to be years long) to sort out revolt risk. Lies upon lies to escape the obligations of the Shanghai treaty.
Yes, it was never written down in legalish detail. It was signed in good faith as an agreement between gentlemen. I always knew you could use tricks to weasel out of it, but I chose to have faith in you and let you show what kind of player you really are. Was I mistaken in trusting you?
"...well tough cookies. With the sheer badboy from simply being China I have I have no doubt that once I seemed weak enough you all would and will attack anyways no matter how strictly I abide by your unequal treaty."
What you fail to realize is that the Shanghai treaty was supposed to disarm the whole China issue. If you no longer have a population that is so much bigger than the second and third largest players, then you cease to be the nightmare threat of the world. Of course, trying to maintain your huge population at all costs only increases the fear of the rest of the world. Yes, I'm sure the dream of playing MP with an untouchable superpower is alluring, but if you were only forthcoming enough to reduce yourself from superpower to unquestioned top dog, then we wouldn't be having these issues.
France -
China wrote:
"...Thirdly, the treaty was not posted in the forums, the treaty was not "specified" with much detail other then "in case a do x, and in case b do y maybe" what you said to my mind was simple "tax at 100% and lose 150 million with possible decision to make it 100 million if there's alot of emmigration (which there is), so simply speaking if I choose to tax and lose 20 million, wait until I recover that 20 million and then tax again until the total populationlost is equal to 150 million then I am in complete accord with the treaty as said, it was never made specific that it had to be all at once, which I might add accomplishes essentially what you want, my population locked in stasis while everyone else gains a large boost through my emmigration, that I am not reduced to say Georgia's population.... well tough cookies. With the sheer badboy from simply being China I have I have no doubt that once I seemed weak enough you all would and will attack anyways no matter how strictly I abide by your unequal treaty..."
If this is your final answer on the matter, prepare for war.
Africa -
China wrote:
"[...] I will nolonger consider you a player in this campaign for all effective purposes and will treat you as I would AI, not to be spoken to or responded to this applies to ANYONE and EVERYONE"
So why don't you go play singleplayer then? Nobody can stop you from being a cheating coon there. I'm sure my bottom sig applies to you already, so you don't have to worry in that department already.
Quote:
"except Africa as I already treat him as no more then AI and refuse any contact more then is nessasary for a smooth game."
Well, isn't that comforting. Now I know you won't get offended by anything I post. QFT.
Quote:
"I am ABSOLUTELY serious, I do not want to hear about this "shoulda annexed/partitioned me in eu3" ever again."
That was never my position, fortunately. I always maintained we shouldn't have a player on China at all in EU3.
China -
France wrote:
"If this is your final answer on the matter, prepare for war."
If the French intend to make war on the peace loving peoples of China then China will barring some sort of attempt at averting this crisis by Italy; will revokes the Treaty of Shanghai but await Italian word on the matter before officially proceeding. If Italian opinion is the same as their French counterparts we will not only revoke this treaty on the ground of a breach of contract by Italy and France parties (for threatening war).
Africa -
China wrote:
"If the French intend to make war on the peace loving peoples of China then China will barring some sort of attempt at averting this crisis by Italy; will revokes the Treaty of Shanghai but await Italian word on the matter before officially proceeding. If Italian opinion is the same as their French counterparts we will not only revoke this treaty on the ground of a breach of contract by Italy and France parties (for threatening war)."
Trying to weasel out of it again, I see. Just being yourself I guess.
Indonesia -
China wrote:
"Firstly Statutes of Limitations, I cannot be held responsible for any alledged aggression I may have or may have not done at the very beginning of Europa Universalis Three, wars come and go, we're supposed to be a little bit flexible with my diplomacy but a few nitpicks:"
You people attempt to hold me responsible for the same things, so it is either statutes of limitations or it isnt.
China wrote:
"a) Firstly I had declared Tibet de facto and de jure a protectorate of China you attacked it despite these warnings.
b) Japan's player at the time dowed me, I did not dow Japan.
c) so far by MY count you have attacked me three times dano all in support of imperialist aggressors.
d) whether you out of game helped players is beyond the point and irrelevent, I've helped a couple of players myself with their connection issues as best as I can and helped Finland get used to Ricky and gave much positive commentary to other people."
a) And I had declared my era of influence over Tibet aswell, so we both had claim to the area.
b/c) Tibet was you attacking me, Japan was dowd by you onto him and vice versa. And not to mention your so called alliances with me then backing out at the worst moments, just as bad as attacking ad it opened holes in defenses.
d) not from what i've heard, i had some of those same people come back to me and ask if what you say is true, some wonder if your advice is good ever since eu3's bad advice.
China wrote:
"Next, arguments for "attacking me when i was weak" in EU3 frankly, don't talk about, don't mention it, or else we're done, I won't talk to you or treat you in any way ever again, you will be considered no more then AI in all diplomatic matters, I don't want to ever hear from anyone ever again saying "I should have been stopped in EU3" you are all in theory intelligent players it should be easy to understand the stupity and utter mental retardation of such a statement and will not elaborate on it further other then say if you mention it as a plausible and serious course of action that should have been taken against JUST SO I WOULDNT BE STRONG IN VICTORIA the above applies, I will nolonger consider you a player in this campaign for all effective purposes and will treat you as I would AI, not to be spoken to or responded to this applies to ANYONE and EVERYONE except Anders as I already treat him as no more then AI and refuse any contact more then is nessasary for a smooth game. I am ABSOLUTELY serious, I do not want to hear about this "shoulda annexed/partitioned me in eu3" ever again."
What, I mention all of it. I should have attacked Georgia too a few times, your attempts to change history and rewrite it to make you the worlds loveable carebear are not working, we all remember history and know that it indeed would have been easier to attack you then, in the past, in eu3 when you were weaker. Just so you wouldn't be strong is the general idea when people invade others, the point is to weaken them and strengthen themselves or to provide a greater good for the world, a war against china is the latter.
China wrote:
"Thirdly, the treaty was not posted in the forums, the treaty was not "specified" with much detail other then "in case a do x, and in case b do y maybe" what you said to my mind was simple "tax at 100% and lose 150 million with possible decision to make it 100 million if there's alot of emmigration (which there is), so simply speaking if I choose to tax and lose 20 million, wait until I recover that 20 million and then tax again until the total population lost is equal to 150 million then I am in complete accord with the treaty as said, it was never made specific that it had to be all at once, which I might add accomplishes essentially what you want, my population locked in stasis while everyone else gains a large boost through my emmigration, that I am not reduced to say Georgia's population.... well tough cookies. With the sheer badboy from simply being China I have I have no doubt that once I seemed weak enough you all would and will attack anyways no matter how strictly I abide by your unequal treaty."
It was taken under the impression that you actually honour it, in hind sight just as stupid as more people not attacking china in the past, as both failed to achive their goals of keeping china from being a superpower with no concern for the rest of the world. And you do indeed realize the point of the treaty was to reduce you to georgia's population, so you realized that and actively cheated to prevent it.
China wrote:
"Fourthly, since I am not in any violation of the Treaty of Shanghai I thus see no reason to accept such a grave insult as to accept Norways suggestion and decline it post haste, of course we could maybe have neutral mediation on the matter, but I only see Finland as being said neutral party as it seems the vast majority of everyone else is clearly out to get me."
You are breaking your word, and as such you show the world you are in capable of keeping any treaties, incapable of sitting at the international table, and indeed are a 'rogue state'.
China wrote:
"Fithly can we please all ignore Africa who is clearly not being constructive in the least, you all clearly have options the game's ending isn't for sure yet thngs will rebalance out in hearts of iron 3 and its impossible to do a world conquest even as china in a multiplayer game, it is simply impossible for me to have an economy large enough to support an army large enough to overwhelm the rest, large enough for a Fortress China maybe but not enough for anything else."
You fail to realize you are a super power compared to the rest of the world. You will be able to pull a USA in terms of industry, and Germany/Soviet in terms of military power, and are more than capable of taking over the world.
China wrote:
"And to retaliate for Indonesia's blatant warmonger the Imperial Chinese Federation will withdraw its ambassadors from Malacca City to be returned when Indonesia sees fit to treat its long term neighbor with respect and dignity and cease spreading misinformation, propaganda, and to most definitely cease and desist this slander about our Great Nation on the world stage and in finality to act as a decent and mature nation that sees fit to use calm and rational diplomacy and not yippy kay ya cowboy diplomacy to solve all its perceived problems and overcompensation for manhood issues."
You are really thick in the head aren't you oh mighty emperor of china... We are trying to prevent the upcoming holocaust that will end up preforming as we progress down this path! We are giving you were the one who broke treaties, cheated, and preformed economic sabotage on the world economy! And yet you have the Gaul to say I am the cause of all of this. We have tried calm and rational diplomacy, heck i have tried backroom politics as well trying to peacefully pressure you to release your stranglehold on the economy to back down from that path, yet you did not listen! It you who set us down this path, and given the resent ultimatum, only you who can get us out of this.
If you are so insistent that you are the one in the right, offer a acceptable counter offer to our ultimatum that would have you actually honoring your treaty, no more cheating from you, a limit to your stockpiling of resources/weapons, and maybe even a global arms limit.
Finland/Russia wrote:
"We only defend ourselves and our Allies if attacked. Adding to that that Finland is allied currently with Mallacca, Georgia and Prussia."
And what will it take to extend such an alliance? If you must stay neutral in the coming war fine, but action against the entire international community will be your own undoing. The recent exchange of goods between you and the aggressor nation worries the international community, as usually only other 'rogue states' trade with other 'rogue states'.
Norway -
Why is there even an argument over whose fault this is? The facts of the matter are clear: Most of the world wants China to tax its peasants at a consistent 100%; China does not want to do so; both sides are willing to fight over it. Who attacked whom in 1463, or whenever, is just irrelevant. The conflict would be exactly the same if the facts of 1463 (whatever they are!) were completely reversed. Less arguing, more shooting!
Indonesia -
I was countering China's lies.
Other than that, I want china to honor its treaty, stop its cheating, release its stranglehold on the world economy and possibly even a global arms limitation that will prevent china from doing something like this again (note it would also stop others from doing something like this again)
Finland -
Well given the openly hostile and suspicious stand of Indonesia, Finland apparently needs to rethink it's alliances. We have given oaths to defend Indonesia and what does it do? Accuse and patrenize Finland. So we ask, is this how Indonesia pays Finlands loayality?
For those who wonders about the recent trade deals, let this be heard: Finland was need of resources so it can continue it's peacfull strengtening of it's nation. We cried help...who awnsered? Who camed to our help? None aside the big bad china and did china ask nothing in return? No, it said here's a gift to the nation that has helped them so much in the past. So we ask where is the supposed malicious china that threatens the world and do not awnser for their depths? Where was the "free world" when Finland asked clothes to it's poor citizens, tables to carry the everyday bread, stools to gather the families for supper? "Free world" wants Finland to fight and do the dirty work of them and destroy itself while fighting china so that Indonesia, France, Italy and Norway can rule the world...
Norway/UK -
I have two points to make.
# At this time, only actions matter. If Finland wishes to align itself with the aggressor, very well; no words will suffice. They will fall on their own deeds; let that be enough.
# "Rouge states" are effeminate, mincing nations that use too much makeup. Whatever else one may say of China and Finland, this is a sin they are not guilty of. They are manly, powerful rogue states, to be shot rather than sodomised. (Note this was in responce to a typo in the original)
(in prestige vice ...atleast in some point)
